H42 Transmission, Tcase, eBrake Rebuild in a '76 FJ40` (3 Viewers)

[Pin_Head]

I forget what that is, but it looks like some kind of oil slinger or washer. Check the parts diagram. It doesn't look particularly important, like a gear.

You need to support the other end of the counter shaft when you walk the bearings on. Otherwise, you will just be pounding the shaft back and forth.

 

[Vae Victus]

I forget what that is, but it looks like some kind of oil slinger or washer. Check the parts diagram. It doesn't look particularly important, like a gear. You need to support the other end of the counter shaft when you walk the bearings on. Otherwise, you will just be pounding the shaft back and forth.

How the heck do I do that? I tried bracing a pipe to one end, using the retainer, which broke the parts, etc. FSM says go back and forth.

Part is Not shown in diagram.

 

[Pin_Head]

I turned it up side down on the bench with the input and output shafts hanging over the edge alternately.

 

[Vae Victus]

I turned it up side down on the bench with the input and output shafts hanging over the edge alternately.

Smart.

You think it's ok to proceed? Flush out the metal somehow? Chip off the jagged bits in case they are loose?

 

[Pin_Head]

It looks like some kind of washer or spacer for the inner bearing race. I would make sure that all the little loose bits are out and take a chance on running it like that.

 

[FJ40Jim]

The thrust shoulder has broken off the bearing race. Without the shoulder, the rollers will wander away. The shoulder is part of the inner race isn't it? I can check tomorrow when I'm back in the shop.

 

[Vae Victus]

The thrust shoulder has broken off the bearing race. Without the shoulder, the rollers will wander away. The shoulder is part of the inner race isn't it? I can check tomorrow when I'm back in the shop.

Well, it is the old race, so I hope it is. It is that gray/green color so it looks like the shaft material.

I can look at the new race, it's on the bench.

 

[Vae Victus]

Good news - JimC is right.

Now, getting old one off will be fun.

 

[lostmarbles]

Have you figured out why you had that extra 7mm length in your countershaft assy (that caused you smash the thrust collar on your rear bearing during reassembly).

I think you had that bearing the wrong way around ... or am I wrong about this?

Here are your views of the bearing pre-disassembly and during-reassembly:



Doesn't look the same to me..

And why are you reusing old bearings anyway?

Here's an image of that bearings correct orientation from the Aug 82 transmission FSM 36237:




PS. This is just like one of my threads .... Except I don't think my photography is as sharp... (I'm loving it.)

 

[Vae Victus]

Well, LostMarbles, I thought it was turned the right way. Clearly however something is amiss, because it wouldn't budge.

I had halfway written it (the problem) off to being caused by putting the bearing retainer and old bearing over the new bearing to hold it in place.

I think I was forcing the shaft to NOT be able to float as I hit the outer race on the other end (the output end) with the drift. You can see from the photo you showed above that the shaft was sticking out too far - thus I was actually forcing the collar toward the gear behind it, when normally it would not be held solidly in place. I'm amazed the collar shattered however as it was not being hit directly.

All bearings are new, but the on race on the counter shaft was old.

The bearing is facing the same way as when I took it out I THINK, but I'm not sure (Numbers facing out). I'll recheck the higher red photos and your diagram above.

Note: new bearing does not yet have the loose inner race collar on it: that just slips on at the end. This makes it look different.

Thanks for the help - clearly something I'm doing is wrong.

(PS - all photos with iPhone or iPad. Uploading from those via the iH8MUD app is one step, simple. Without those, this would be much harder).

 

[lostmarbles]

Note: new bearing does not yet have the loose inner race collar on it: that just slips on at the end. This makes it look different. ..

Ooops. As you were then. (I missed this and got confused thinking that collar was actually part of the inner bearing race and was the bit that got shattered.)

...All bearings are new, but the on race on the counter shaft was old. ..

I'm sure it's not good practice to swap races between bearings though (if I'm correct in understanding what you're saying you've done this time)..



PS. Sorry for butting in.

You probably won't believe how long I took studying your pics and FSM before commenting but I still managed to say something stupid.. LOL

(I'm having my doubts now about whether I'd be up to the task of reconditioning my H41. So I'm ever so lucky it's running well.)

 

[Vae Victus]

Ooops. As you were then. (I missed this and got confused thinking that collar was actually part of the inner bearing race and was the bit that got shattered.) I'm sure it's not good practice to swap races between bearings though (if I'm correct in understanding what you're saying you've done this time).. PS. Sorry for butting in. You probably won't believe how long I took studying your pics and FSM before commenting but I still managed to say something stupid.. LOL (I'm having my doubts now about whether I'd be up to the task of reconditioning my H41. So I'm ever so lucky it's running well.)

Lost, I'm very grateful for your expertise! You are helping me. That collar is called to be removed by the FSM, and it does come with the new bearing. I thought I read somewhere to not remove it (actually, in this thread I think, I'll have to look, which means it is opinion, not fact, eh?).

I agree, logically it's not good practice to swap a new bearing onto and old worn race: it will have slop in it. That was a dumb thing to do. In this case though, I get to fix my error without having to buy a new bearing, so I'm lucky.

Still not 100% sure how I shattered the piece, but I'll go with my theory above until someone points out the actual reason.

Does my theory in the response above hold water?

 

[Pin_Head]

thinking that collar was actually part of the inner bearing race and was the bit that got shattered.)


(I'm well.)

I think you got it right. The "collar" looks like it is part of the inner race. It is definitely hardened like a bearing race. The original bearing is also in the opposite orientation as in the manual.

 

[lostmarbles]

...That collar is called to be removed by the FSM, and it does come with the new bearing. I thought I read somewhere to not remove it (actually, in this thread I think, I'll have to look, which means it is opinion, not fact, eh?). ..

By "collar" I think you mean "the inner race whose edge you shattered"... Right?

If someone here has advised you to re-use the old race in this way then I guess I'd have to bow to their experience but I've searched and can't find that post.

However I have done plenty of bearing replacements in general engineering work and swapping races or rollers/balls between 2 different bearings goes against what I've always understood to be acceptable practice.

I never thought it advisable to interchange parts even when both bearings are new and purchased at the same time with the same manufacturer's details on them for that matter (although I'll concede you're more likely to get away with it then). So mixing old/worn with new is certainly worrying to me.

Ahhh. I think I may have found where you got the idea from...



I think they only wrote "if necessary" here to cover someone who is planning on reusing the ENTIRE original bearing.

.. In this case though, I get to fix my error without having to buy a new bearing, so I'm lucky. ..

And you get no choice but to satisfy meesy (whose got so hooked on your thread that he can't stop himself from becoming involved despite his inexperience of H41/42 g/box work)

...Still not 100% sure how I shattered the piece, but I'll go with my theory above until someone points out the actual reason.

Does my theory in the response above hold water?

Yep... I think so.

The way I see it is that you've got to be super-careful that each and every hammer blow directs its impact energy only where you want it to go (without the mass or inertia of the counter shaft rebounding or relaying that impact where you don't want it to go).

And you want to use only gentle blows too.

These FSM pics show someone else holding a 3-5 lb hammer against the opposite end of the countershaft to absorb the impact on the shaft and prevent it hammering against other stuff unless I'm mistaken.

 

[lostmarbles]

I think you got it right. The "collar" looks like it is part of the inner race. It is definitely hardened like a bearing race. The original bearing is also in the opposite orientation as in the manual.

Yeah.. But I was completely wrong about Vae Victus having that inner race inserted the wrong way around. (In truth he'd never even removed it from the countershaft during dissassembly and was disgustingly planning on reusing it by mating it with parts of a new bearing.)

Never mind if I'm confusing you more now ... I'm probably the only one who knows just how confused I've been here..

But it's been fun (and that's always a key ingredient).

 

[kiwidog]

Inner race

Hi Vae,

You definitely shouldn't use the inner race that has the lip broken off. The rear countershaft roller bear is captured on the CS and slides in the case for expansion contraction when it is hot and cold. The front CS bearing is a ball and takes the thrust as it is locked in the case with the outer snap ring and the front retainer and locked on the CS with the front snap rings.

When I put them together, you install the main shaft bearings first with the counter shaft sitting in the bottom of the case with no bearing on it other than the rear roller inner race( the piece broken in your case) Putting the main shaft is easiest with the case sitting up right with the top opening facing the sky. Once you have done that turn the case over so the top opening is sitting on your bench. This where I differ from that FSM. Install the front CS ball bearing first it usually is tight on the shaft and slide fit in the case. Use piece of 3/8 or 1/4 by 1" or 1 1/4 flat bar about a foot long as a drift some with a little heft, and 14 oz ball peen hammer. Hit the inner race only usually does the trick, the outer race will usually float into the case with your hits on the inner race. The rear CS roller bear can be just started in the case so it supports the CS, don't push it in the case more than 1/4". The CS will slide in the rollers. After you tap the front CS bearing home on the CS you can put the Snap ring on the CS and the snap ring on the outer race of the ball bearing. Now turn the case around and tap the outer race of the CS roller bearing until you feel the rollers touch the inner race flange.( softly) It is a slide fit in the case because it is meant to move in the case when the CS grows or shrinks in use form the heat and cold of use.

The old inner race if you have been able to save when you removed can certainly be used again if it looks good. The rear CS bearing has the least load on as it is pretty all a radial load. The rear CS trust washer is really only there to retain the rollers along with front lip on the inner bear race.
I would measure the bearing race diameter just to make sure you have the same size. The bearing OD ID and thickness are a standard size however the rollers could be different diameter between manufacturers.

Lostmarbles correct in saying that in engineering practise it is common not to mix and match different parts of a bearing. This probably on of those things that gets handed down in the apprenticeship system. It doesn't really make sense as the bearings are assembled randomly at the factory. They are made to a certain size with a certain tolerance and assembled randomly. Maybe some very high spec bearings have some selective fit to make the fit a certain spec, however the bearings in a H41-42 would have general tolerance rather than anything high spec.

Hope this helps, the second to third time you build a H42 it becomes old hat.

Thanks jb

 

[lostmarbles]

Hi Vae,
You definitely shouldn't use the inner race that has the lip broken off. ....

Hey. That's unfair jb. I 'm sure VV was NEVER even thinking of doing that!

...The old inner race if you have been able to save when you removed can certainly be used again if it looks good. ..

Right. So this is where your "hands-on experience superiority" comes in (... but I can't help it if it goes against what I've been taught and have gotten ingrained in me..)

... The rear countershaft roller bear is captured on the CS and slides in the case for expansion contraction when it is hot and cold. The front CS bearing is a ball and takes the thrust as it is locked in the case with the outer snap ring and the front retainer and locked on the CS with the front snap rings.

When I put them together, you install the main shaft bearings first with the counter shaft sitting in the bottom of the case with no bearing on it other than the rear roller inner race( the piece broken in your case) Putting the main shaft is easiest with the case sitting up right with the top opening facing the sky. Once you have done that turn the case over so the top opening is sitting on your bench. This where I differ from that FSM. Install the front CS ball bearing first it usually is tight on the shaft and slide fit in the case. Use piece of 3/8 or 1/4 by 1" or 1 1/4 flat bar about a foot long as a drift some with a little heft, and 14 oz ball peen hammer. Hit the inner race only usually does the trick, the outer race will usually float into the case with your hits on the inner race. The rear CS roller bear can be just started in the case so it supports the CS, don't push it in the case more than 1/4". The CS will slide in the rollers. After you tap the front CS bearing home on the CS you can put the Snap ring on the CS and the snap ring on the outer race of the ball bearing. Now turn the case around and tap the outer race of the CS roller bearing until you feel the rollers touch the inner race flange.( softly) It is a slide fit in the case because it is meant to move in the case when the CS grows or shrinks in use form the heat and cold of use.....

Great stuff jb!

I bet you now have all the info necessary for a successful second attempt VV.

BTW... Weren't you tapping the CS bearings in without the case being upturned VV (contrary to what jb suggests doing above and contrary to the FSM pics I posted)?

I bet there's some measurable sagging occuring in the input-output-shaft-assembly (in that semi-assembled state) so perhaps turning it upside down would help prevent that sagging from stopping the top and bottom gears mating correctly and therefore make it easier for you to get the CS bearings installed.

 

[Vae Victus]

Ahhh. I think I may have found where you got the idea from...

View attachment 836036

I think they only wrote "if necessary" here to cover someone who is planning on reusing the ENTIRE original bearing.

Yes, I think that may be why I thought that. I just looked thru the thread too and don't see where anyone told me to leave that race on there.

These FSM pics show someone else holding a 3-5 lb hammer against the opposite end of the countershaft to absorb the impact on the shaft and prevent it hammering against other stuff unless I'm mistaken.
View attachment 836041

Ok, learning lots from today's posts. Bracing the hammer on the opposite side makes sense - absorbs the impact, and slows down the other side from working itself out.

 

[Vae Victus]

Hi Vae,

You definitely shouldn't use the inner race that has the lip broken off. The rear countershaft roller bear is captured on the CS and slides in the case for expansion contraction when it is hot and cold. The front CS bearing is a ball and takes the thrust as it is locked in the case with the outer snap ring and the front retainer and locked on the CS with the front snap rings.

Ok. Will certainly be removing the broken race. Sigh, this is like starting over again, especially that stupid rear main bearing.

Good info to know on the ball vs cylindrical bearing and the loads the different bearings are experiencing.

When I put them together,
... turn the case over so the top opening is sitting on your bench.
... Install the front CS ball bearing first
... Hit the inner race only
... The rear CS roller bear can be just started in the case so it supports the CS, don't push it in the case more than 1/4". The CS will slide in the rollers.
... After you tap the front CS bearing home on the CS you can put the Snap ring on the CS and the snap ring on the outer race of the ball bearing. Now turn the case around and tap the outer race of the CS roller bearing until you feel the rollers touch the inner race flange.( softly) It is a slide fit in the case because it is meant to move in the case when the CS grows or shrinks in use form the heat and cold of use.

Hope this helps, the second to third time you build a H42 it becomes old hat.

Thanks jb

All the items after the ellipses are new and helpful.

Wish I'd thought of turning the case upside down.

 

[Vae Victus]

Hey. That's unfair jb. I 'm sure VV was NEVER even thinking of doing that!

LOL, no never!

I bet you now have all the info necessary for a successful second attempt VV.

BTW... Weren't you tapping the CS bearings in without the case being upturned VV (contrary to what jb suggests doing above and contrary to the FSM pics I posted)?

I bet there's some measurable sagging occuring in the input-output-shaft-assembly (in that semi-assembled state) so perhaps turning it upside down would help prevent that sagging from stopping the top and bottom gears mating correctly and therefore make it easier for you to get the CS bearings installed.

Yes, I have all the info needed. EXCEPT am I going to have to cut that race off that's broken?

And yes, I was doing it the way the 77 and 80 FSMs show it, which is right side up. Turning it over makes sense.

When I return home, I'll get after it again.

I'm at the lake today (Paris Landing, TN, Land Between the Lakes) watching the bald eagles.