Engine Troubles - What would you do? (1 Viewer)

[Perovich]

Hello, I'm relatively new here, but have been lurking for a while. I'll keep it short and simple so there's not much to read through.

My FJ60 has sat for 3 years, was given to me last year and now I'm attempting to fix it up between work and classes.

My truck is getting 0 compression in two of the cylinders, both wet and dry.
If I'm not mistaken, that'd primarily be caused by burnt valves?

So I talk to one of my professors today (1st quarter in the Auto Tech program) and recommends rebuilding the head. I stop by the shop he recommend and the owner/mechanic there says he can do it for $200 if I take the head off and re-install it myself.

I drive out to my family's mechanic on my way back into town, to get a second opinion, and a leak-down test to make sure I'm getting a true "0" compression. He laughs and says that a new head on an old block would just cause the bottom-end components to wear faster and smoke, and that I'd just be throwing my money away.

So, what would you do?
Continue driving on it for the next 3 months until I have proper funds for a full rebuild?
Spend $200 now and call it good? (All other cylinders are at 155PSI)
Or spend $200 now and continue saving for a bottom-end rebuild after saving up during the summer?

I'd value any input immensely... thanks!

Also pics, because we seem to be into that

 

[Godwin]

Adjust the valves first and recheck the compression. That would be the easy and cheap approach before doing anything more involved.

 

[SteveH]

Check/Adjust the valves, and do a wet/dry compression check. If it just needs valve work or a head gasket, just do that. If you have good oil pressure and don't sense that the lower end is worn out, then just do the head work. It could go many more miles before needing a lower end rebuild.

Perhaps your family mechanic is used to Chevy 350s, where you generally rebuild the whole thing, and the lower end is usually worn out at the same time. 2Fs are friendly toward head work without rebuilding the whole engine. The difference here is $200 for head work (that's a good deal for a valve job), and $2000-$3000 for a complete rebuild. If you end up needing a rebuild down the road, then the head work is already done, too.

 

[tag3]

Are the two 0 cylinders next to each other? If they are try to blow air into one cylinder and see if it comes out the other. If it does, sounds like a head gasket.

 

[Perovich]

Check/Adjust the valves, and do a wet/dry compression check. If it just needs valve work or a head gasket, just do that. If you have good oil pressure and don't sense that the lower end is worn out, then just do the head work. It could go many more miles before needing a lower end rebuild.

Perhaps your family mechanic is used to Chevy 350s, where you generally rebuild the whole thing, and the lower end is usually worn out at the same time. 2Fs are friendly toward head work without rebuilding the whole engine. The difference here is $200 for head work (that's a good deal for a valve job), and $2000-$3000 for a complete rebuild. If you end up needing a rebuild down the road, then the head work is already done, too.

Yeah, $200 sounds amazing; especially considering I was going to fork out $2k on a full rebuild from Cassel (local machine shop).

If I can do this successfully without blowing out the lower-end of my engine, I will. I'm just not familiar enough with the engine to feel entirely comfortable doing that yet (I really, really don't want to hurt this thing).

As far as taking off the head, though, is that something I could consider doing myself with little to no prior mechanical knowledge?
Or am I going to have to be wary of certain torque settings when re-installing it?

Are the two 0 cylinders next to each other? If they are try to blow air into one cylinder and see if it comes out the other. If it does, sounds like a head gasket.

They aren't physically next to each other, no. But given that they are in terms of firing order, it makes for some pretty odd idling sounds

Cylinder 1 - 160 PSI
Cylinder 2 - 0 PSI (both dry and wet)
Cylinder 3 - 160 PSI
Cylinder 4 - 155 PSI
Cylinder 5 - 155 PSI
Cylinder 6 - 0 PSI (both dry and wet)

I really appreciate the input, guys. You have no idea.

 

[Dynosoar]

#1 check the valve adjustment. If its a new head someone probably screwed up the valve adjustment.
#2 If and only if you determine the top end to be solid (leak down test) then I would do a quick and dirty "farm" rebuild. That consists of just doing a re-ringing the pistons with the block still in the truck.

Dyno

 

[tag3]

Yeah, $200 sounds amazing; especially considering I was going to fork out $2k on a full rebuild from Cassel (local machine shop).

If I can do this successfully without blowing out the lower-end of my engine, I will. I'm just not familiar enough with the engine to feel entirely comfortable doing that yet (I really, really don't want to hurt this thing).

As far as taking off the head, though, is that something I could consider doing myself with little to no prior mechanical knowledge?
Or am I going to have to be wary of certain torque settings when re-installing it?


They aren't physically next to each other, no. But given that they are in terms of firing order, it makes for some pretty odd idling sounds

Cylinder 1 - 160 PSI
Cylinder 2 - 0 PSI (both dry and wet)
Cylinder 3 - 160 PSI
Cylinder 4 - 155 PSI
Cylinder 5 - 155 PSI
Cylinder 6 - 0 PSI (both dry and wet)

I really appreciate the input, guys. You have no idea.

Ok, now I would put air into the sparkplug hole and listen for where it comes out. Either exhaust, intake or oil cap.

 

[Pighead]

A valve job will not cause the lower end to fail. I generally do a valve job half way between engine rebuilds...my rule of thumb is a valve job every 100k or so, engine rebuild by 250k. I'm on my 3rd engine rebuild.

 

[Spudman]

I'd go with removing and reinstalling the head and pay $200 for it to be fixed, along as you follow the FSM it's relatively easy.

 

[norsk]

also note the $200 does NOT include the cost of the Head gasket, which will run some $200 of itself (the kit)
The kit will have the valve cover gasket, valve oil seals, et al

Also REMEMBER to have them check the oil galley Above spark plug #5 (search on the site). If not yet fixed, get it FIXED then.
It takes TWO people to pull and install the head - it is that heavy and awkward.

My head cost $600 (including cost - $200 - of second head, so I wasn't "down" during the rebuilt), but I put in Stainless Steel Chevy valves, etc.

good luck and have fun with it

dougbert

 

[Perovich]

I'd go with removing and reinstalling the head and pay $200 for it to be fixed, along as you follow the FSM it's relatively easy.

I've been pretty privileged in being in an automotive course, so I printed out the step-by-step from All-Data. Seems simple enough, though I'm not mechanically gifted by any means (yet!)

also note the $200 does NOT include the cost of the Head gasket, which will run some $200 of itself (the kit)
The kit will have the valve cover gasket, valve oil seals, et al

Also REMEMBER to have them check the oil galley Above spark plug #5 (search on the site). If not yet fixed, get it FIXED then.
It takes TWO people to pull and install the head - it is that heavy and awkward.

My head cost $600 (including cost - $200 - of second head, so I wasn't "down" during the rebuilt), but I put in Stainless Steel Chevy valves, etc.

good luck and have fun with it

dougbert

Absolutely, needed to get it replaced soon, so now's as good a time as any. Thanks for the heads up!
Checked around town, and Autozone's got a gasket set for $101, and from Napa for $170; would I be safe in assuming the difference is atermarket v.s. OEM?

Also I'll scout around and see if I can find some local guys to help me with pulling it off. I hear is a decent bartering tool?

Again, thank you guys for all the input. Much appreciated!

 

[tag3]

Do yourself a favor and get the OEM head gasket.

 

[Godwin]

Do yourself a favor and get the OEM head gasket.

Absolutely or plan on doing it over.

 

[Perovich]

I had some free time after work tonight with my dad, and he decided to try and help me out, to start me off in the right direction. This is our first attempt at anything handy, so forgive my ignorance.

We started with the left side of the engine and took off anything that was attached to it -- air filter, spark plugs, wires, alternator, etc. etc.
Easy enough.

Moved around to the front, and removed the alternator adjusting bracket, water pump and thermostat housing, all related hoses, etc.
Again still pretty easy, especially for two guys where it's the blind leading the blind.
Then we come to THIS monstrosity:

We decided we needed to get a better look at it, so we started taking off the air injector manifold one nut at a time, until one decided it wanted to give up the ghost:

So this is where we've stopped.
We're down an air injector manifold, a few gaskets (which I have on order now), and a lot of time.

1.) What in the world do I do with the carburetor and the roadmap of vacuum hoses? (Since it's 25 years or older, I don't have to pass emissions, and I would go the desmog route in a heartbeat but I don't have the money to spend).
2.) Do I need to take the carburetor off in order to take off the intake and exhaust manifold, and are the intake and exhaust manifold one piece, or two?
3.) What in the hell is going on with my carb? What have we gotten ourselves into

 

[Mr Fusion]

Looks like some good progress. As recommended above a valve adjustment can make a huge difference on these engines, if mine gets too far out of adjustment it will easily loose 50% of the compression value for each cylinder out of adjustment, I have measured my before and after compression numbers to check. And have had some mechanics tell me that I needed to rebuild my motor because of the low compression numbers, did a valve adjustment and they came right back up. If you have checked the valve adjustment or have other reasons to suspect that the head is the problem then the following should help you.

It is not uncommon working on these older cruisers to have a few stubborn fasteners, don't get frustrated, the machine shop should be able to remove anything left in the head when they do the rest of the head work. And I'm sure you could find another air manifold from someone in the classifieds section. Also if the fasteners are stuck it would be helpful to use a penetrating oil on them to help loosen them up, spray them and let them soak for a day and try again, if they are really stubborn it may take a few times.

Take lots of pictures of the vacuum hoses so you can hook them all back up properly, or you can get the Toyota 2F emissions manual and it shows where all the lines are supposed to connect to, or you could probably find a picture of the diagram here on mud that another user has posted if you search. As far as disassembly, when I did mine a few years back, I just left as manny vacuum lines hooked up to the carb as I could and disconnected the other ends, this makes reassembly easier. The metal pipes will unbolt from the head as you take the head further apart, as with the carb leave as many hoses attached as possible and disconnect the other ends.

You might be able to remove the head without removing the carb, I haven't tried to do this myself I removed the carb and manifolds first, but you will be fighting it hard most of the way. As stated earlier the head is very big and heavy, removing as much as possible before extracting it from the engine bay is the best way to go. And it will probably be easier to remove the manifold in the vehicle vs. on the bench.

The intake and exhaust manifolds are two pieces but they are held together by five bolts and can be removed as one unit. Do not separate the manifolds from each other unless you have a good reason to, like replacing the gaskets between them and even then I wouldn't unless they are leaking, because it can be very difficult to get them realigned correctly. Also make sure you have the machine shop check the manifold assembly against a straight edge to make sure it's still true. sometimes they can get warped and need some work to seal back up correctly when reinstalled, you can search for more info on this there are lots of good threads about it.

The carb is actually very easy to remove it only has four nuts holding it on to the intake manifold you will need to use a small box-end wrench to remove these and use caution not to strip them out or the studs that go into the intake manifold. After that you will need to remove the heat shield/spacer under the carb it is attached to the intake by a few other bolts and is usually pretty fragile so be careful not to damage it as you remove it.

All of this is covered step by step in the service manual and is really the best way to go if you have access to printing it out I would highly recommend following the manuals instructions as it guides you through the correct way of removing everything and has all the other important info like torque values too.

X3 on the Toyota gaskets best way to go.
X2 on the galley plug hole.

 

[gregnash]

Agreed with above and X3 on galley and x4 on Toyota OEM. Contact @beno, @Sam Stewart or one of the other Toyota Parts Managers on here that sell parts to mud members at a 25% discount.

Something else you may consider doing while you are at it is to replace all the vacuum lines. They are 20+yrs old and could use it. Boostcontroller.com is where I have gotten mine for a good price or you can go through McMaster-Carr for the lines (3mm and 6mm which can be replaced with 5mm if needed). Along with doing that I would suggest a nice sharp exacto for proper/easy removal of all hoses and to not break any of the plastic nipples on things.

Since you are in WA I would also look up @torfab for some help in different areas. They are great guys and can help you through whatever.
Also, @FJ40Jim has a vacuum line diagram floating around on here somewhere.

 

[Spike Strip]

It won't cost you anything to de-smog, except some time to do it right and a couple of bux for air injector plugs. Usually people spend a bill on an idler pulley, but if you're in a pinch, you can gut the smog pump and use that as the pulley. Hell, if your pump is the OE one and not too rusty, I'd give you $30 for it ... You could probably get $50 or so for rest of the used equipment.

If you don't desmog, you're gonna have to find a replacement for that air inj rail. And good used ones are hard to come by since they're all rusted.

 

[vszUnclear]

Regarding the broken air rail: I ran into the same problem before I committed to desmogging; I was taking the manifold off and boom goes the air rail. I posted here and Jim C chimed in saying that it's OK to plug the air rail with set screws (got mine from Jim C) and then bypass the ABV.

See: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/first-fj60-is-there-a-12-step-program.724999/page-2#post-8654032

Honestly it ran fine like this for months, until I just went ahead with the full desmog. So if you're not up for this level of project yet, there is an easy interim solution.

Cheers and congrats... and welcome to the madness.

 

[Perovich]

Agreed with above and X3 on galley and x4 on Toyota OEM. Contact @beno, @Sam Stewart or one of the other Toyota Parts Managers on here that sell parts to mud members at a 25% discount.

Something else you may consider doing while you are at it is to replace all the vacuum lines. They are 20+yrs old and could use it. Boostcontroller.com is where I have gotten mine for a good price or you can go through McMaster-Carr for the lines (3mm and 6mm which can be replaced with 5mm if needed). Along with doing that I would suggest a nice sharp exacto for proper/easy removal of all hoses and to not break any of the plastic nipples on things.

Since you are in WA I would also look up @torfab for some help in different areas. They are great guys and can help you through whatever.
Also, @FJ40Jim has a vacuum line diagram floating around on here somewhere.

Exacto knife was a huge help; decided to just go all the way on a full desmog, since my rig doesn't have to pass state emissions, and being able to cut the lines out in half before pulling them made uninstalling them a breeze.

I'll be sure to have them find a solution to the oil galley. It doesn't appear to be actively leaking, but there's so much carbon buildup on the head and bottom-end, I'm sure it is, or has at one point or another.

It won't cost you anything to de-smog, except some time to do it right and a couple of bux for air injector plugs. Usually people spend a bill on an idler pulley, but if you're in a pinch, you can gut the smog pump and use that as the pulley. Hell, if your pump is the OE one and not too rusty, I'd give you $30 for it ... You could probably get $50 or so for rest of the used equipment.

If you don't desmog, you're gonna have to find a replacement for that air inj rail. And good used ones are hard to come by since they're all rusted.

Unfortunately, I already de-veined by air pump a while back because one of the veins broke and seized up, which prevented the water pump from circulating... which led to a whole lot of other issues.

Regarding the broken air rail: I ran into the same problem before I committed to desmogging; I was taking the manifold off and boom goes the air rail. I posted here and Jim C chimed in saying that it's OK to plug the air rail with set screws (got mine from Jim C) and then bypass the ABV.

See: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/first-fj60-is-there-a-12-step-program.724999/page-2#post-8654032

Honestly it ran fine like this for months, until I just went ahead with the full desmog. So if you're not up for this level of project yet, there is an easy interim solution.

Cheers and congrats... and welcome to the madness.

Thank you! Awesome thread, was a really good read. Ordered the plug and cap set from JimC, and by the looks of it, I'll be ordering the EGR pipe plug as well (doh!).

Things are finally starting to come together - it's gone from stressful to a LOT of fun.

 

[Perovich]

Forgot to add pictures! Also, as far as I've read, I'm pretty much done with these (if anyone sees anything I've missed and will need after desmog, let me know!):

If anyone needs these for emissions, let me know.

Cleaning up the right side of the engine:

Got the carb and heat shield off, as well as a majority of the VCVs and vacuum tubing. Looking at the layout for the intake and exhaust manifolds, so I can take those off as easily as possible (will need a EGR pipe plug soon, as mentioned above).

Also, two last questions - does the EGR cooler just bolt to the block, and am I ok to just take that off without having to replace any bolts?
And, if I'm taking the head off, should I be using new head bolts, or re-using the same ones in the same holes? (I've heard very conflicting answers online).

Again, thank you guys for babysitting me through this one.
Toyota Gaskets arrived and are good to go, just waiting on the plug and cap set and it'll be go time to get her finished up

Thanks again