I thought the 30-year rule only applied to 30-year old and newer? No? A 1982 should be exempt.
Engine swap and regs in Reno (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter RedBaron77
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rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
I just called Carson City Emissions department and talked to Troy Seefeldt.
775-684-3580
Per our conversation Nevada uses the EPA Engine swap guidelines.
http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/air/documents/policies/mobile/engswitch.pdf
I ask if there was a Nevada Statue I could read, never got an answer. The DMV uses an internal policy to determine what the rules are. So they could change at any time with no notice to the public and are arbitrary. BTW Troy agreed about this, he is not happy either since he has a truck he wants to do an engine swap in.
The current rule is 1981 to present the replacement engine must be from the same year or newer AND must have been offered by the manufacturer for that vehicle. For 1968 to 1980 the DMV only checks for a tight fitting gas cap and a tail pipe sniff so you can get away with a swap, for now. Seems like that could change at any time since the DMV management can make their own rules and change them on a whim. So if you want a diesel in your 82 it would have to be the one Toyota offered for that truck, maybe, if they don't change the rules before you finish.
I'm really kind of pissed about this even though I am not contemplating an engine swap.
775-684-3580
Per our conversation Nevada uses the EPA Engine swap guidelines.
http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/air/documents/policies/mobile/engswitch.pdf
I ask if there was a Nevada Statue I could read, never got an answer. The DMV uses an internal policy to determine what the rules are. So they could change at any time with no notice to the public and are arbitrary. BTW Troy agreed about this, he is not happy either since he has a truck he wants to do an engine swap in.
The current rule is 1981 to present the replacement engine must be from the same year or newer AND must have been offered by the manufacturer for that vehicle. For 1968 to 1980 the DMV only checks for a tight fitting gas cap and a tail pipe sniff so you can get away with a swap, for now. Seems like that could change at any time since the DMV management can make their own rules and change them on a whim. So if you want a diesel in your 82 it would have to be the one Toyota offered for that truck, maybe, if they don't change the rules before you finish.
I'm really kind of pissed about this even though I am not contemplating an engine swap.
Thanks Dan for making the call!
That's why they call it "guberment".
That's why they call it "guberment".
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
I tried to do some research, now my brain hurts:
Links
http://www.dmvnv.com/codebook.htm
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-445B.html
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-445B.html#NRS445BSec300
Links
http://www.dmvnv.com/codebook.htm
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-445B.html
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-445B.html#NRS445BSec300
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
So from what it sounds like, if we were to do a swap on anything 81 or newer it has to be either another LC engine (2F, 3FE, 3B, 13BT, 2h, 12HT) or something from a newer variant of Toyota Trucks like the V8 from a Tundra or something to that likes?! Wow, well looks like I will be sticking to Toyota if I ever swap the 2F (but had secretly always wanted a turbo'd 3B of 12HT) 
Thanks for the responses guys. Dan, that's helpful info and thanks for posting it. i have been trying to navigate the DMV website with little success trying, like you, to find some kind of official law/policy. It's very worrying to me that the whole process does seems so absolutely arbitrary.
I'm wondering about this 30 year rule - how are they doing their math?. I mean its 2013 and 30 years ago would be 1983, right? So why are they saying 1981? Seems like 1982 shouls be in the sweet spot.
The contact info is really helpful, I may call to ask questions. I'm really keen on this swap but I can't, in good conscious, put serious coin in to it without feeling more confident about this process.
I'm wondering about this 30 year rule - how are they doing their math?. I mean its 2013 and 30 years ago would be 1983, right? So why are they saying 1981? Seems like 1982 shouls be in the sweet spot.
The contact info is really helpful, I may call to ask questions. I'm really keen on this swap but I can't, in good conscious, put serious coin in to it without feeling more confident about this process.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
No, it would have to be an engine that was offered in the model truck you have. You couldn't put a UZ v8 into a FJ60. You could only use an engine that was offered in the 60 series truck.So from what it sounds like, if we were to do a swap on anything 81 or newer it has to be either another LC engine (2F, 3FE, 3B, 13BT, 2h, 12HT) or something from a newer variant of Toyota Trucks like the V8 from a Tundra or something to that likes?! Wow, well looks like I will be sticking to Toyota if I ever swap the 2F (but had secretly always wanted a turbo'd 3B of 12HT)
It is completely asinine.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
If I understand correctly the 30 year rule is for importation, not modifications. Troy was pretty specific about 1981 being the cut off.
How did Shawn get his smallblock 60 approved? Is the 1981/30-year BS newer than when Shawn did his conversion?
He may have gotten that in prior to the rule change.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
Shawn did his conversion on the 60 a while ago. It sounds like DMV can change the rules on the fly. I wonder what Bruce has to say about this? Maybe it's time to send a few emails?
Sent via the ether from my candy bar running ginger bread
Sent via the ether from my candy bar running ginger bread
Well, I would certainly be willing to email. The more reading I do on this subject I can't believe how unfriendly our county is towards engine conversions. This is the same place that hosts Hot Augusts Nights, right? If our state is using EPA guidelines to set policy then I found this interesting from the link Dan posted:
"For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer."
So, if one is installing a motor that is newer, more efficient and has better emissions what difference if it is a different make?
Unfortunately the EPA document also says:
"For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to a certified configura- tion of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of the installed engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in a light-duty vehicle"
I'm not sure if the Isuzu NPR trucks that the 4bd1/2t motors came in are classified as heavy duty but it seems like another potential road block. I'm going to try to make it down to the Reno DMV next week and talk to them in person before I scrap this idea altogether.
Personally I would propose a 25 year rolling window for vehicles requiring emissions testing as very reasonable.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
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- Thread starter
- #34
I talked to the guy at the emissions lab today. And well he said 85 or new and has to be an option for the car. Now I'm seriously considering redoing the inline 6. Kinda puts a kink in my plans.
- Thread starter
- #35
He did also say if its an 1968 to 1981 you can out whatever you want in it.
Not that they'd know but did you happen to ask the director what the purpose of such a stupid law serves?
So I could have an '85+ MY vehicle with a modern engine with cleaner tailpipe emissions but the DMV/State of Nevada forbids. Makes sense to me.
Dumb asses.
but did you happen to ask the director what the purpose of such a stupid law serves?So I could have an '85+ MY vehicle with a modern engine with cleaner tailpipe emissions but the DMV/State of Nevada forbids. Makes sense to me.
Dumb asses.
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Here's an update on my inquiries with the DMV regarding engine swaps. I have spoken with the emissions lab on the phone again and corresponded with a lady named Debbie Shope. I am posting the correspondence for those that may be interested.
My email to DMV:
Dear Mr. Dillard,
I am writing to express my unhappiness regarding the engine conversion rules for Washoe County and urge you to consider updating the policy. The current policy only allows one to install an engine configuration that was originally offered by the manufacturer for that make of vehicle. This rule applies to vehicles produced in 1981 and later. Earlier vehicles are not subject to this policy.
The current vehicle I have was manufactured in 1982 and the original motor is simply worn out. Like many people, I love my vehicle and have no desire send it to the scrap yard because it needs a new engine. I would like to replace the engine with a newer, more efficient and lower emissions one from a different make vehicle. Washoe county policy prohibits this despite the fact that it would be in the community’s best interest by lowering emissions. It is my understanding that Washoe County DMV policy is based on the EPA's Engine Fact Switching Sheet. Within this document the EPA makes allowance for engine swapping "if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected..."
The County of Washoe is a community that values America's automotive culture and heritage as evidenced by our annual celebration of Hot August Nights. Engine swapping is quite common in vintage vehicles and a large number of manufacturers exist that supply parts and support to make it feasible. While Washoe's policy does make allowances for vehicles 25 years or older to be registered as "classic" and exempt from emissision testing they cannot be modified from their original configuration; this is hardly a policy consistent with the Hot August Nights "hot rod" culture that Washoe County promotes.
I urge you to consider updating this policy to be more flexible regarding engine conversions. Perhaps you would consider a rolling 25 or 30 year window for vehicles requiring emissions testing; or consider expanding the policy to allow any engine configuration regardless of manufacturer providing the conversion meets a minimum emission standard.
DMV Response:
Dear Mr. Oliver,
I am responding on behalf of Mr. Dillard.
The engine conversion rules are statewide, they don't just apply to Washoe County. The engine needs to be one that is manufactured for that specific vehicle. I.e. a 1981 Plymouth L4 type engine to a 1983 V8, and the Plymouth that had the L4 was also manufactured for the V8, then you could put the engine in this vehicle. There are usually different engine configurations for most vehicles. This is what the EPA is wanting us to ensure. Also the 1983 engine would have to have all the equipment for emissions attached to it as that is what it came equipped with when first sold. The EPA leaves it up to the state to determine the reasonable basis.
You also questioned the policy on the Classic Vehicle license plates. This is not policy, this is in Nevada Revised Statutes which states containing only the original parts which were used to manufacture the vehicle or replacement parts that duplicate those original parts. However, Classic Rod license plates do not have to meet this requirement and they only have to be 20 years or older to be issued the plate. As for the emission exemption for the Classic Rod license plate, you need only complete the application for the plate, complete the odometer statement verifying the mileage at the time of application, and for the future, the vehicle just cannot exceed 5,000 miles per year. You will need to complete the odometer reading statement each year.
Here is the link to the statute for Classic Rod license plates, Classic Vehicle license plates is just below it. If the link does not work, just copy and paste into your browser search bar.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-482.html#NRS482Sec3814*
Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.
Debbie Shope, DMV Services Manager III
Emissions Program
Compliance Enforcement Division
Dept of Motor Vehicles
e-mail - dshope@dmv.nv.gov*
e (775) 684-4841* (775) 461-6110 (* (775) 684-4798
It's a frustrating policy but I did take away something that might be helpful. If I were to register my '82 FJ60 as a classic rod I believe I can do what ever I want with the engine so long as it doesn't produce visible smoke. Provided, that is, I don't drive it more than 5,000 miles per year. Not very helpful if one wants to build a daily driver (as I do) but pretty cool for someone building a mostly trail rig that wont get that many miles.
My email to DMV:
Dear Mr. Dillard,
I am writing to express my unhappiness regarding the engine conversion rules for Washoe County and urge you to consider updating the policy. The current policy only allows one to install an engine configuration that was originally offered by the manufacturer for that make of vehicle. This rule applies to vehicles produced in 1981 and later. Earlier vehicles are not subject to this policy.
The current vehicle I have was manufactured in 1982 and the original motor is simply worn out. Like many people, I love my vehicle and have no desire send it to the scrap yard because it needs a new engine. I would like to replace the engine with a newer, more efficient and lower emissions one from a different make vehicle. Washoe county policy prohibits this despite the fact that it would be in the community’s best interest by lowering emissions. It is my understanding that Washoe County DMV policy is based on the EPA's Engine Fact Switching Sheet. Within this document the EPA makes allowance for engine swapping "if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected..."
The County of Washoe is a community that values America's automotive culture and heritage as evidenced by our annual celebration of Hot August Nights. Engine swapping is quite common in vintage vehicles and a large number of manufacturers exist that supply parts and support to make it feasible. While Washoe's policy does make allowances for vehicles 25 years or older to be registered as "classic" and exempt from emissision testing they cannot be modified from their original configuration; this is hardly a policy consistent with the Hot August Nights "hot rod" culture that Washoe County promotes.
I urge you to consider updating this policy to be more flexible regarding engine conversions. Perhaps you would consider a rolling 25 or 30 year window for vehicles requiring emissions testing; or consider expanding the policy to allow any engine configuration regardless of manufacturer providing the conversion meets a minimum emission standard.
DMV Response:
Dear Mr. Oliver,
I am responding on behalf of Mr. Dillard.
The engine conversion rules are statewide, they don't just apply to Washoe County. The engine needs to be one that is manufactured for that specific vehicle. I.e. a 1981 Plymouth L4 type engine to a 1983 V8, and the Plymouth that had the L4 was also manufactured for the V8, then you could put the engine in this vehicle. There are usually different engine configurations for most vehicles. This is what the EPA is wanting us to ensure. Also the 1983 engine would have to have all the equipment for emissions attached to it as that is what it came equipped with when first sold. The EPA leaves it up to the state to determine the reasonable basis.
You also questioned the policy on the Classic Vehicle license plates. This is not policy, this is in Nevada Revised Statutes which states containing only the original parts which were used to manufacture the vehicle or replacement parts that duplicate those original parts. However, Classic Rod license plates do not have to meet this requirement and they only have to be 20 years or older to be issued the plate. As for the emission exemption for the Classic Rod license plate, you need only complete the application for the plate, complete the odometer statement verifying the mileage at the time of application, and for the future, the vehicle just cannot exceed 5,000 miles per year. You will need to complete the odometer reading statement each year.
Here is the link to the statute for Classic Rod license plates, Classic Vehicle license plates is just below it. If the link does not work, just copy and paste into your browser search bar.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-482.html#NRS482Sec3814*
Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.
Debbie Shope, DMV Services Manager III
Emissions Program
Compliance Enforcement Division
Dept of Motor Vehicles
e-mail - dshope@dmv.nv.gov*
e (775) 684-4841* (775) 461-6110 (* (775) 684-4798
It's a frustrating policy but I did take away something that might be helpful. If I were to register my '82 FJ60 as a classic rod I believe I can do what ever I want with the engine so long as it doesn't produce visible smoke. Provided, that is, I don't drive it more than 5,000 miles per year. Not very helpful if one wants to build a daily driver (as I do) but pretty cool for someone building a mostly trail rig that wont get that many miles.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
Unfortunately this is just the same backwards garbage that happens in most government agencies.. Let's keep doing things the wrong way just because we have done them that way for so long. Believe me it is infuriating dealing with that on a daily basis.
Wonder if there is some loophole in there that would allow a vehicle to have something added to it that was not OEM? I wonder how this applies to vehicles that were legally modified out of state, registered in that state and then purchased by a NV resident and registered here. You are not the one who did the swap and were just buying the vehicle and registering it?!
Wonder if there is some loophole in there that would allow a vehicle to have something added to it that was not OEM? I wonder how this applies to vehicles that were legally modified out of state, registered in that state and then purchased by a NV resident and registered here. You are not the one who did the swap and were just buying the vehicle and registering it?!
Classic veicle registration
No-one mentioned here that all you have to do is register as a classic vehicle...more than 25 years old and drive less than 2000 miles a year. If your odometer is not working I dont see how anyone will know how many miles were driven including yourself.
There is also classic rod registration...
No-one mentioned here that all you have to do is register as a classic vehicle...more than 25 years old and drive less than 2000 miles a year. If your odometer is not working I dont see how anyone will know how many miles were driven including yourself.
There is also classic rod registration...