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Diesel engines for 80s

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by Jim_Phillips, Aug 30, 2003.

  1. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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    Here in the UK diesel 80's outnumber petrol by at least 10 to 1. Is there a reason that the US/Canada don't have diesels? (Why don't Toyota let you have them or is it a government decision?)

    Has anyone ever looked into importing a diesel 80 or even just the engine? Is it possible? I have done a little research on the availability of diesel engines and have found 2 with no difficulty. How about importing the front half of an 80 - then you have a few spares and bits and bobs should there be problems mounting a diesel in a petrol engine bay. Also, I believe there is less duty to pay if it's not a running vehicle that you import.

    So what's the score? You don't like diesels or you're not allowed them? If you could legally import a diesel engine / front half of an 80 how many people would want one?

    Jim
     
  2. bad_religion_au

    bad_religion_au

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    while an australian myself, from what i have heard, diesels are harder to get past their smog testing, therefore it was too hard for toyota to bring in diesel 80's and 100's, due to the 1hz and various toyota diesels not being able to pass the stringent smog laws.

    also i heard someone on this forum comment that their diesel is expensive, making it more economical to run on gasoline, or close enough not to worry about.

    i've heard that europe has subsides in place for diesel. australia is probably in the middle of the two, diesel price wise
     
  3. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    The US SUV market has gone Luxury. The socker mums don't want to listen to the clatter rattle and smell stinky exhaust :D
    There is the soot problem too. Diesel and gas vary through out the year.
    The peolpe that can aford a new US LC $60K+ don't worry about the price of gas.
    kurt
     
  4. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    Diesel powered small vehicles got off on the wrong foot in the US. GM had a really crappy V8 derived from a gasoline engine that spent most of it's time broken. and other manufacturers, Toyota included, had WAY underpowered deisel cars and small trucks. In addition, repair costs of these small diesels were (and still are) astronomical. Recently inroads have been made in the large pick-up truck market and Diesel is finding admirers there. I imagine it will take a long time to erase the memory of the really bad start Diesel passenger cars got off to in the US. Hardly anybody would even consider purchasing one and that is probably the main reason that we don't have more of them. About the only way there would be enough demand would be if Diesel fuel was SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than Gasoline, on the order of 1/2. As it is now, it is on par with or a bit higher than Gasoline.
     
  5. cary

    cary

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    One other issue with diesel cars in the US is that the fuel here contains significant sulphur and the emission control systems on the new diesel engines need low sulphur gas. STandards for diesel fuel that equal Europe's are still 2-7 years away.


    Cary
     
  6. scottm

    scottm

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    The California Air Quality Board is holding manufacturers to strict particulate counts, which diesels have a problem with. The fact that they use less fuel and therefore emit less total pollution of a less toxic nature hasn't swayed them. Manufacturers are reluctant to introduce products they can't sell in California for good reason. It's mostly an ego and power thing for the board members. There has been some give lately, our kids will probably drive diesels after the board members die off.
     
  7. Jim_Phillips

    Jim_Phillips

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    Fair enough. For the last few years European manufacturers have been trying to make their diesel engines 'as good' as petrol engines. By that they mean quietness, acceleration etc. Since modern diesels are now at least on a par in this regard they are a popular choice. Diesel users pay a premium for the car and recoup the cost through better MPG figures. The other reason for a big take up in diesel cars is the company car market - company car drivers in the UK are taxed according to CO2 emissions. That means you pay less tax if you choose a diesel since thay have lower co2 emissions than a petrol vehicle. If we had petrol for sale at $2 a gallon I don't suppose we would worry about 'only' getting 30mpg.

    btw, Diesel is more expensive than petrol in the UK

    Jim
     
  8. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

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    FWIW - Here in the state I live in and I imagine most everywhere in the states we have three different No. 2 diesels. 1 = home heat (the cheapest). 2 = Off road (heavy equipment, farm tractors, etc.). And 3 = On road (trucks, cars, the most expensive). Basically the only difference other than price is the color. Dye is added to the home heat and off road differentiate between the uses. I do not want to get into a debate about supposed different sulphur content and additives but will say that home heat diesel will work fine on the road or off road. We have very diligent DOT officers that check truck tanks by dipping something like litmus paper in them and if if turns color there is a fine of $1000.00 (US) per tank. On road diesel is supposed to be clear. They do not want to hear any excuses that you ran out of fuel etc. and had to add a little of something else. Also, FWIW kerosene or No. 1 will also work in a diesel engine. Before the dip police we used to cut our No. 2 with kerosene in the winter to help it flow better and keep from gelling. Kerosene cannot be run straight for long as it burns hotter and does not provide enough lubrication for the injection pump, but in a pinch will work fine. Of course the price difference between the three colors is quite a bit. I do not have exact figures since I have been away from it for awhile but was something like $.60 per gallon home heat - $.90 per gallon off road - and $1.20 per gallon on road. When I was a lad and pumped gas it was $.22 per gallon for regular (ethel), $.24 premium (hi-test), and $.13 for diesel. C-Dan I don't want to hear it. :D It kind of P&*^)@ me off that something lower down the cracking ladder at the refineries is now the same or more than gasoline.
    Bill
     
  9. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    I agree with Cary here . I spoke to a VW saleman only a few months ago . When questioned as to why North Americans can't get all kinds of top end vehicles , specifically diesel , he noted that it was the poor quality of North American diesel . I also remember talking to a Toyota salesman , who said that North America gets only a small share of the worlds cars . So it will be a long , long time before we see diesel 80's , camrys , and the nice Nissan 4x4's or even some of the Mitsubishis ... :'(

    Tyler
     
  10. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    [quote author=Photoman link=board=2;threadid=4810;start=msg36566#msg36566 date=1062277924] When I was a lad and pumped gas it was $.22 per gallon for regular (ethel), $.24 premium (hi-test), and $.13 for diesel. C-Dan I don't want to hear it. :D
    [/quote]

    Bill,

    I'm not that far behind you. I rode my bike to the gas station a couple blocks from the house to fill my gallon can for the lawn mower. It cost a Quarter to fill it up. :'(
     
  11. Rogue

    Rogue

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    When I was a kid...

    oh, nevermind. :D
     
  12. ParadiseCruiser

    ParadiseCruiser

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    >> When I was a lad...
    >> I'm not that far behind you...

    Jeeze, I’m goin’ to have to lend you guys my walker...


    As to the diesels, two points of additional interest.

    First. Diesel powered vehicles are smog exempt in California. Yeah, I know: The politics overpowers common sense.

    >> The California Air Quality Board is holding manufacturers to strict particulate counts, which diesels have a problem with.

    Scott’s comment is still accurate. The manufacturers cannot get past these old buzzards, but the trucks that do get into the state are forever after exempt from any emissions testing. Go figure.

    Second. So let’s say we import one of Jim’s half-80s. Put it into a whole-80, and shazam... no more problems. Now, something breaks. Where do we get the parts? Toyota U.S. doesn't know half-squat about 1HZ, 1HD, etc. (Dan: I know, I know... but it's all theory...). I suppose we could put Jim into the importing business, but after a good dose of Toyota U.K. prices for parts, you might want to reconsider.

    BTW, diesel is about 25c cheaper than petrol here in N Calif at the moment.

    Cheers, R -
     
  13. Jomama

    Jomama

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    2005 or 2006, "Ultra-low" Sulfer Diesel will be available (or even mandatory) here in the U.S (something like 3x lower ppm sulfer output than current Euro diesel).. All the auto mfgs are either developing light duty/passenger car sized diesel engines or (like chrysler) may use some existing euro engines. Jeep liberty is supposed to be offered w/a mercedes built I5 turbo diesel by 2005 for example. VW Toureg starts with a V10 TDI, but will shortly thereafter be offered with a much less $$$ I5 TDI thats in Audi's I believe.
     
  14. landtoy80

    landtoy80

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    Cat can't even make a emission legal motor. Some of there diesle motors they make don't comply and they pay a tax/fine for every motor that doesn't comply. It must be cheaper to pay fine than redo their motors.
    kurt
     
  15. Jonathan_Ferguson

    Jonathan_Ferguson ★ is in the wrong locale SILVER Star

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    In Australia Regular Petrol and Diesel are usually about the same price, Except when it's School Holiday time when Diesel is about 10 cents per Litre more. :mad:

    As Cary mentioned about the high amount of Sulpher in Diesel it's the same situation in Australia at the moment, Thus the excuse about European Diesels not availible. :banana:

    My main problems with Diesel is that it's not availible at most Fuel station and the Bowser handle is usually dirty. :-X
    Also I really hate how Diesel starts to partly freez at 9 degrees Celcius and Winter Diesel is not availble, Except in some Alpine areas. :eek:

    What I really like about Diesels is the huge amount of off Idle Torque and how smooth and quiet they are(Except for most Electronic Injection Diesels).
    Also Diesel does'nt smell, Unlike Unleaded Petrol. :p
     
  16. scottm

    scottm

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    [quote author=ParadiseCruiser link=board=2;threadid=4810;start=msg36614#msg36614 date=1062297313]Where do we get the parts?[/quote]
    Another good point, as my IdahoBrother Doug told me, even starters are more expensive for US diesel trucks, because the quantity produced is so much lower than gas versions. As they get more common the parts prices equalize.

    The other huge obstacle is from the US automakers. They're 20 years behind the rest of the worlds automakers for small diesel technology, and don't want to invest to catch up. They'd never compete if diesel cars suddenly were the norm. They lobbied hard to keep rectangular headlights out, then to keep sealed-beam headlights, just to make it harder for foreign competition. These rules have huge financial benefits for them, and UAW, and many others. They'd just import small diesels I'm sure, maybe sell the models they sell overseas. It'd take time and $ to adjust from manufacturing to dealerships, which they generally don't do well at. Their reputation on small diesels is bad, foreign maker's reputation is good, it'd be a bloodbath for Detroit.
     
  17. bad_religion_au

    bad_religion_au

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    i personally thought that diesel stinks.

    in my Hj in australia, i only had problems finding a diesel pump in the heart of the melbourne. when my 2f in the fj finally dies, i'll probably drop in a 1hz. diesel is easier on the wallet, and torque is abundant :) . i ran my Hj at hotham for a couple of days before adding "alpine diesel" and never had it freeze or gell up.

    and another advantage of diesel, you can run them on the vegetable oil that is used to deep fry your fish and chips :)
     
  18. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    As C-Dan mentioned, diesel engines for the general public are very unpopular. He mentioned several reasons and another is resale value. Those that were sucked in to buying diesels during the 70's petrol crisis were rewarded with non-existant resale values. We're talking high-end Cadillacs (Seville's and Fleetwoods) that were 3 years old being worthless. The other GM sedans with diesels usually didn't last 3 years. Anyone seen one of these on the road in the last 20 years?

    Mercedes diesel sedans have done fair but their petrol counterparts were the 'desireable' models. The diesels were for those that wanted a Mercedes but couldn't afford the real ones.

    Until recently (last 10 years), you had to fill up in truck stops to get diesel. There are still *lots* of stations that do not have diesel pumps.

    They're noisy, smelly, expensive to repair, and I don't like 'em. :) ... but I would take a Toureg with a diesel if VW is giving them away.
    -B-
     
  19. Jonathan_Ferguson

    Jonathan_Ferguson ★ is in the wrong locale SILVER Star

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    The resale value of Diesel Engined Vehicles is so much more than the Petrol version here. :)

    I really hate the rotten egg smell of Unleaded Petrol. :-X Ahh - Clean and Efficiant Diesel. :-*
     
  20. s79bj40

    s79bj40

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    yeah, i have to say that diesel smells better than both petrol and gas. I hate sitting behind taxies in traffic. And diesel is abundant. I know of 1 fuel station in the entire state that does not have diesel, and its in the middle of the city. I know of quite a few that dont have petrol or gas. I'm a bit sore about the gov taxes on fuels when they so regularly state that clean fuels are the future etc... Over 50% of the cost of fuel here is federal gov fuel excise, which is a tax, but isn't..... so it can be linked to inflation without "taxes" going up. Clever hey. Biodiesel was proven to be a heluva lot cleaner than both petrol and diesel, and was pushed hard for a while by some people in gov. Until the gov realised that the few people capable of making it were getting to drive their cars TAX FREE. OMG!!!! So that had to stop and sometime last year, put a 100% excise on ethanol, which is same as fuel, but refundable if you can prove that its not going into any type of transportation. Damn I was just about to set up for Bio at 25cpl :) But now it would cost me more to make than to buy fossil diesel at 80cpl. Oh and for our state, the state gov was subsidising the cost of all fuels by 10cpl, which was a subsidy off the fuel cost, not the excise. FFS. So those dirty mexicans were shipping it south o the border and making p/fit from our subsidy. Those sneaky bastards.

    Sam