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Cruiser paint??

Discussion in '40- & 55-Series Tech' started by crewzerdog, Aug 6, 2003.

  1. crewzerdog

    crewzerdog

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    Did a quick search and saw the post back in June from Sparky-Mark on paint recommendations - I'm doing a frame off on a 79FJ40 and will be going back with the stock "cruiser red". I'm not looking for a show car type paint job as I intend to use the truck but I have spent almost a year doing the disassembly/restoration - only thing left is the paint job (hope to go to a painter within a week or so) and hate to screw the job up now. Some "car" folks say a single stage urethane from PPG is just fine - others recommend a 2-stage (Base coat/clear coat) "system". Any of you out there that have recently painted or had a FJ40 painted - I'd love some advice on what lasts and won't cause me to get a second mortgage on the house! Thanks!!
     
  2. 72cruiser

    72cruiser

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    i'm no paint guy (esp. b/c my cruiser is custom grey primer right now :D), but i do know that a clear coat is a lot easier to mess up driving around.

    my bro-in-law painted his 77 bronco with a single stage urethane that had a high gloss finish. it was an unusual color (tennessee orange), but he still got plenty for ~$125. it looks really nice from about 15 feet away, but up close you can tell it's not a clear coat. he has no problems with this b/c it's easy to fix if he scratches it real bad, no big deal if he messes it up (which he does a lot), and he only has to wash it once every month or two and it looks like he keeps it waxed.

    just my .02,
    jonathan
     
  3. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

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    c-dog,
    A few things to consider...
    1. Do you want a "deep" looking paint job? On show cars, they apply a few coats of color, then several coats of clear. When I was on the Chevy Avalanche program, the first show truck they did for the Detroit Auto Show had 26 coats of paint (most of them clear). The guys in the shop spent a week straight doing it because they had to wet sand several times. Time = money. If done right, single stage can look very good... just as good as base coat - clear coat.

    2. UV - You will get better UV protection when you use a clear coat. However, the single stage stuff provides excelent UV protection as well (kind of like a difference between 9 and 10 on a scale of 1-10). Paint technology has matured greatly since our cruisers were built.

    3. Usage - 72cruiser made a good point (which is what I pondered when selecting my paint system). If you plan on having to do repairs due to scrapes and scratches, stick with the single stage. If you go with clear coat, you have to remove it completely before you can repaint it. (You may have stumbled on this point when reading previous posts). Some may disagree with this, but that is what the manufacturers and OEM paint people advise for good chemical and mechanical adhesion.

    4. Facilities - Hopefully, your paint guy will be using a downdraft, heated spray booth with refrigerated, dry air to the gun. If not, find someone else. I rented booth time for $300 with a buddy for a whole day. Equipment is really important, and I'm sure you spent a lot of time prepping.

    5. Your paint guy - make sure he's up on the technology. If he doesn't know what HVLP is, walk away. There are a lot of coatings out there that were desined for use with HVLP guns.

    I have been very satisfied with my experience painting for the first time (even though I got some orange peel). Unless you're building a show truck and never going to take it off road, my opinion is to use a 2K single stage from an OEM manufacturer (PPG, Sherwin Williams, Sikkens, Dupont, etc.). Get a data sheet and look at the finish properties - UV stability, resistance to chemicals, hardness, etc. If you can't get a data sheet, don't use it.

    Just my opinion...Good luck
    Attached is a pic of my painted parts after drying (single stage, 2K, PPG AUE-300 paint). You can see some orange peel in the aprons and bib, but the hood and fenders look great.
     
  4. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    c-dog,

    I am sure you read what my opinions were in the other paint thread but I'll put my .02 in here regarding some of the above.

    First understand I am old school...therefore I am not all gooshy inside with HVLP painting systems. No one can begin to count the number of show winning paint jobs that were applied with compressed air and paint gun. I have a friend (actually spoke with him last night) who is all giddy with his HVLP system and really wants to bring it up to shoot my cruiser when I am done making the rollover repairs. I've seen a half dozen or so cars he's shot with it and they all look fine. I just prefer to hear my big ass compressor chuggin versus that annoying vacuum cleaner sound....yep I'm old school.

    Next is facilities...some of the better dust free paint jobs I have seen/witnessed were done out of the booth in the wide open shop area. Keeping the dust down and impurities out of the air (had a furnace kick on once that caused the most interesting fish eyes) is the key. You'll be hard pressed to find a shop that will empty out and clean out 5,000 or so sqft of floor space. It's a PIA for them that why the booths. At the end of the day, if dirt/dust/mosquitoes etc...end up in the paint....you'll be wet sanding and buffing. To that end thats why I prefer base coat clear coat over single.

    My .02
     
  5. customcruiser

    customcruiser Old Member

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    Spray paint or even better yet use a brush :D :D
     
  6. crewzerdog

    crewzerdog

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    Thanks for the info folks - Sparky Marky (great pictures) continues to give good advice -I've continued the discussions with a few more local paint shops - and as expected - everybody has their own bias - (nothing new here) but one thing did come out of this -- almost everyone agreed that if you are not going to shoot metallic paint and want something that will buff out well years in the future (i.e. red paint that begins to fade can be buffed back to a "new" look) then the single stage urethane is the way to go - even got this from a shop that usually shoots BC/CC. Apparently durability is not a problem and nicks are supposedly easier to touch up.

    I did a search on the web and found this site that has a lot of information on automotive paint/sandblasting:
    http://www.autorestorer.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=13

    Keep the info coming. One final question - for those that have repainted their hardtops - what is the preferred "white" paint for the fiberglass part of the top? Is POE-15's marine white paint been used by anyone - seems like it would do a great job on the fiberglass and help seal that $%@! metal rain gutter. Thanks again.
     
  7. CruisinGA

    CruisinGA

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    My PO painted my cruiser with a single coat type paint. (no clear coat). It looks alright, doesn't need wax or much washing but when you put it next to my buddy that has a very well done professional base coat/clear coat paint job there is absolutely no comparison in looks.
     
  8. hammerhead

    hammerhead

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    ...are we talking about cruisers or corvettes.
     
  9. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

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    Just as C-dog noted, there are certainly a lot of opinions among the crowd that were spawned by individual experiences. Sometimes, I don't explain myself clearly enough and get misunderstood (unfortunately, that's why I'm long winded on the board - details and "why" are important for everyone reading if they want to try something for the first time.) I think I need to clarify a few topics from my point of view...

    HVLP - Really a safety thing. If I went to someone who painted for a living and they didn't know what this technology was, it would tell me that they are a little behind (and may get very ill when they get older). HVLP was designed to limit airborne particles during the refinish process (by default, it's more efficient too). With conventional guns (55 psi), a lot of the paint bounces off the surface and hangs out in the air - not good for your lungs, eyes, and skin. Becuause HVLP uses a much lower pressure (about 8-10 psi), a lot less paint bounces off and winds up in the air.

    Instead of pressure (conventional gun) being the major factor in the atomization process, volume is the dominant driver in HVLP technolgoy. The end result is the same atomization quality of the paint, but with less velocity coming out of the tip. HVLP uses a lot more volume, so you pretty much need the same air delivery system. (I would be very concerned about the "vacuum cleaner" delivery systems ability to produce the required volume).

    Toddslater - I ceratinly don't mean to be impolite to your buddy, but if he has one of those $100 systems that is advertized as HVLP, that wasn't what I was making a reference to. Most professionals simply get an HVLP gun and use a regulator to knock the pressure down (they still need their big compressors for the volume demand). The heart of the technolgoy is in the gun components.


    CruisinGA - I question what kind of paint your previous owner used? If he/she used lacquer, acrylic, or an alkid enamel, you are correct - the paint would not look nearly as nice as a base coat clear coat system. If however, they used a professional urethane coating, you may be challenged to be able to tell the difference. (One of the tests that are performed on a paint system is a score on a 60 degree gloss meter. There are several 2K single stage urethanes that measure the same score as base coat clear coat systems.) Of course I limit the opinion to non-metalic coatings.


    C-dog - white hard top paint: I would suggest that you use the same paint system that you use on the rest of the vehicle (so you can use the same activator component and save some money). I used the color called "appliance white", a commercially acceptable name for a particular formula of white. It is brighter than original, but I was quite pleased with the results I got.

    Sorry again to be so long winded - by being specific I hope to help people save some time and more importantly money by benifiting from what I have learned from my co-worker Tanya (she's an automotive paint engineer here in Detroit and is a great source of info). She has access to a lot of unbiased information that no one can get from their local paint store.

    C-dog - I wish you luck. Choose your painter very carefully, that's going to be the key.
     
  10. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    Sparky,
    My buddies vacuum cleaner system set him back $750 or so and thats been at least 10/12 years ago. I think he may also have included a supplied air mask set up. Which brings me to the second thing. When spraying any paint..old lacquers, enamels but especially these new catalyzed paints, proper respiratory protection is required regardless if your using HVLP or pressure/syphon systems. The newer stuff is much worse on you than the old stuff. Full face supplied air is the best friend you can have...next to that full face with the proper cartridges....wouldn't consider a half face. Enough of the safety talk....

    Back to HVLP...back when my buddy picked up his vacuum cleaner, correct me if I am wrong, HVLP was just being kicked around. I don't think there were any of the major manufactures (Devilbliss, Binks etc..) selling HVLP guns for production shops. Now when you go into suppliers they are all the rage. So...I was in my local supplier Sat. am, and he shows me his flier. He has a special on a Devilbliss HVLP gun with a top load style cup (yes I have never sprayed with a top loader either), to which I replied ok order me one....it'll be here on friday. :p High tech here I come. My old gun will now go the way of all old guns....primer gun heaven. BTW my supplier is ELine and the gun is on sale for $150 :eek: :eek: :eek:

    Now the real reason, as you mentioned...with syphon/pressure guns alot of the paint bounces off the work and ends up as overspray on just about everything. At the cost of these new paints and they are comparatively $$$$$, I should like to keep the paint on the work. And the month of July has brought plenty of work...rolled the FJ40 and some very nice young stop sign running gentleman t-boned the wife in her Land Rover. It's only steel...and some aluminum.
     
  11. crewzerdog

    crewzerdog

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    Sparky-Mark - again, thanks for the tip on hardtop paint - keep the useful info flowing....

    The shop/painter I've picked does a lot of classic car restorations in addition to the normal insurance repair jobs - he just painted a classic Cobra and boy did it look fantastic. He's got several covers in HotRod magazine, etc. of cars he's painted and some street rods that he's built. I'll be sure to take photos of my project but will try to get a few shots of his latest project vehicle on display in his shop - absolutely unbelieveable.

    Thanks again!!
     
  12. bj42turbo

    bj42turbo

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    [quote author=Sparky_Mark link=board=1;threadid=4160;start=0#msg30819 date=1060261248]
    c-dog,
    A few things to consider...
    1. Do you want a "deep" looking paint job? On show cars, they apply a few coats of color, then several coats of clear. When I was on the Chevy Avalanche program, the first show truck they did for the Detroit Auto Show had 26 coats of paint (most of them clear). The guys in the shop spent a week straight doing it because they had to wet sand several times. Time = money. If done right, single stage can look very good... just as good as base coat - clear coat.

    2. UV - You will get better UV protection when you use a clear coat. However, the single stage stuff provides excelent UV protection as well (kind of like a difference between 9 and 10 on a scale of 1-10). Paint technology has matured greatly since our cruisers were built.

    3. Usage - 72cruiser made a good point (which is what I pondered when selecting my paint system). If you plan on having to do repairs due to scrapes and scratches, stick with the single stage. If you go with clear coat, you have to remove it completely before you can repaint it. (You may have stumbled on this point when reading previous posts). Some may disagree with this, but that is what the manufacturers and OEM paint people advise for good chemical and mechanical adhesion.

    4. Facilities - Hopefully, your paint guy will be using a downdraft, heated spray booth with refrigerated, dry air to the gun. If not, find someone else. I rented booth time for $300 with a buddy for a whole day. Equipment is really important, and I'm sure you spent a lot of time prepping.

    5. Your paint guy - make sure he's up on the technology. If he doesn't know what HVLP is, walk away. There are a lot of coatings out there that were desined for use with HVLP guns.

    I have been very satisfied with my experience painting for the first time (even though I got some orange peel). Unless you're building a show truck and never going to take it off road, my opinion is to use a 2K single stage from an OEM manufacturer (PPG, Sherwin Williams, Sikkens, Dupont, etc.). Get a data sheet and look at the finish properties - UV stability, resistance to chemicals, hardness, etc. If you can't get a data sheet, don't use it.

    Just my opinion...Good luck
    Attached is a pic of my painted parts after drying (single stage, 2K, PPG AUE-300 paint). You can see some orange peel in the aprons and bib, but the hood and fenders look great.
    [/quote]

    Sparky mark, Love the shine on those blue panels, any pics of the finished truck or is it still a work in progress...........Dazz
     
  13. JohnL

    JohnL

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  14. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

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    Todd,
    I'm interested in your comments when you get your new HVLP gun. I only have limited experience on both types. The application method was a little different, but I got just about the same results with both (I wouldn't say I got great results since I don't paint a lot). The viscosity is something that I was told is important - some paints are designed for use with HVLP equiptment and some are not. I think that everyone on the board will benefit greatly from someone who paints much more often then the rest of us. By the way, it sounds like you got the gun at a great price. The one I borrowed from Tanya was a $300 DeVilbiss gun.
    You're absolutely right about the use of a good respirator and protective clothing - that is by far the most important note for all of us.

    BJ42 - It's work in progress (I have to install the doors, and hard top), but here it is... I haven't sanded out the orange peel and buffed it out since it's a trail truck. I will do a better job of painting next time since I did a lot of learning on this one...
     
  15. pvaman

    pvaman

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    I've got an old compressor and Devilbiss gun (nice but 10 years old). Do these new HVLP guns work w/standard compressors?

    Also how disasterous would it be to do this painting in a cleared out home garage rather than hiring it out or renting a booth?
     
  16. Brog

    Brog

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    Looks pretty good there Sparky..
    What kind of overlay do you have on the rocker and 1/4 panels?
    Brog
     
  17. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    pvaman,

    the devilbliss hvlp I'm looking at only uses @ 13cfm at the required 23 psi inlet pressure (10 psi at the cap) so you should be fine. The quality of the paint job I would say is more dependant on the skill of the painter. That aside, some things to do to keep the dirt down for an in the garage shooting are as follows:

    blow down all the high areas such as garage door channel/frames etc...

    sweep the floor area down

    repeat the above

    cover anything you don't want overspray on with plastic

    blow down your car before and after taping outside the garage

    wet down the floor

    pull FJ in finish out taping if necessary

    rig up a box fan to provide light air movement/exhaust the overspray

    wear full face respirator with organic vapor cartridges

    pull out skeeters and/or any other unwanted pests between coats while paint is still wet

    when dry to touch use tack cloth between coats

    take your time drink plenty of cold beverages and remember most if not all sins can be wet sanded and buffed

    I am sure i forgot a thing or two but this is a good start.

    Sparky,

    I pick the new gun up on Friday....all though it will be a few weeks before I start shooting with it. In the meantime I plan on touching base with another old friend....this one owns his own body shop since 1980...and get his .02 on all this. Since I did my ground up resto of my 1965 Griffith that we shot at his shop in 1990...I haven't had to paint anything more serious than could be handled with my little jamb gun. So I am more than a little rusty. Been lucky till now I guess...also the kid raising since 1988 takes time and $$$. I'll keep you updated. I am looking at a pic of the gravity feed hvlp gun now....the only thing I can think is that it will feel weird at first having the weight of the paint up top versus down low.
     
  18. pvaman

    pvaman

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    thanks todd. Please keep us posted!!
     
  19. bj42turbo

    bj42turbo

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    Sparky_mark, your truck is looking xlent.............Dazz
     
  20. Sparky_Mark

    Sparky_Mark

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    Brog,
    The rocker and quarter panel overlays came with the vehicle from the previous owner. They are 3/16 diamond plate steel. The rockers could easily be fabbed up by a local steel shop (cut the pattern and 1 bend at the bottom for a lip). The rear quarter panels would reqire roller equiptment. In my opinion, you could get these pieces fabricated from a local shop for cheaper than any of the cruiser suppliers (and you can get thicker material as well).

    BJ42turbo,
    Thanks very much for the comment, it means a lot coming from a fellow cruiser owner. I am admittedly my own worst critic and think I would do a better job of the painting if I do another one. I did a lot of learning on this one which is the 2nd best part of these projects (the best part is getting to drive it when I'm done).

    Toddslater,
    The first time I used a gun, it was siphon feed. The second batch of parts was with the gravity feed. I liked the gravity feed gun for a few reasons...
    1. A lot less wasted paint (I hated dumping out the paint from the siphon feed.
    2. You can use a liner with the gravity feed and paint at any angle (even upside down).
    3. You can pop the cap pretty easy to see how much material you have left.

    ... Great thread all, I hope it will be a benefit to many people....