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96 LC - Starter problem?

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by txlandc, May 5, 2003.

  1. txlandc

    txlandc

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    Here's an intermittent problem with a stock 96' LC w/105K miles. The problem has a happened a few times and the worst was yesterday. The truck starts but the starter continues to try to engage and re-start the engine. Although the engine is running the idle is rough. Yesterday, I started it (cold start), the starter continued to turn the engine over after it was started. I turned the ignition off (which worked in the past) and the starter still continued to turn the engine over even though the key was off (and the engine was off). After turning the key on, and restarting the engine and off again the starter would not stop turning the engine over (whether the engine was running or not). Since I couldn't get it too stop I popped the hood and gunned the engine @ the throttle linkage. This finally made the starter operation return to normal and I haven't had the problem again. I initially had this problem about 3 months ago, although not to this extreme, and maybe once since then.

    Might this be a solenoid problem? or could it be related to the computer system?
     
  2. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

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    First, you better work on this right away to save some major bucks. Either the solenoid is sticking or there is power applied to the solenoid when there shouldn't be. The latter case could be from a bad ignition switch etc. More likely it is the solenoid. The solenoid ring can weld across the contacts and the only way to stop power to the starter is to pull a battery cable. A bendix can stick in if it has a weak spring, or has a burr on it or the flywheel, and will continue to run the starter. From your description though, you said the motor continues to try to start so this doesn't sound likely. They make rebuild kits and parts for the solenoid/starter. If no action is taken you will smoke the starter and some have said it can take the alternator with it. If the starter completely shorts the large positive wire from the battery to the starter will burn. As -B- has said in previous posts on this subject the solenoid contacts seem to be a rather common problem.
    Bill
     
  3. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    TxLandC,

    Hello and welcome to the 80s section!

    Your problem is the classic starter solenoid problem. The fix is cheap and a 2 banana job. Parts will be approximately $25. You need 2 kits; one for the +12v side and one for the -12v side.

    >> I initially had this problem about 3 months ago <<

    Listen to your Cruiser, it was trying to tell you something.  :G

    Until you get it fixed, which should be SOON, grab a BFH or a 1/2 breaker and hit the starter when it hangs. Fix it tonight if possible otherwise you will get stranded.

    http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_starter_rebuild.htm
              and
    http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/starter/ (Not 80 Series but still a valuable information source)

    You can buy the kit at your local Toyota dealer. If you are on the trail and cannot get the kit then you can reverse the +12v with the -12v contacts to get it working again. Clean the plunger and the contacts with sandpaper or a file. This will get you a few dozen starts in a pinch.

    Let us know if you need p/n's or other information on doing the repair. The dealer will tell you there are 2 different starters and 2 different p/n's for the rebuild kits. Either will work but if you can take the p/n from the starter they can match up the p/n's.  When in doubt, get the 2.0kw cold weather starter kit. The attached picture shows a new and a slightly worn contact. I'm guessing yours will be much more worn than this one.
    -B-
     
  4. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    I just finished rereading Juice's write up. If your truck is lifted or if you fit, you don't need to raise it and remove the DS wheel. The starter can be removed from under the truck with all 4 wheels on the ground.  You don't need to buy wobble extensions. A swivel head ratchet or a U-joint should do the job.  You can level the contacts by using a piece of 2x4 wood and pressing with your body weight. Hopefully, you have the FSM. Otherwise, I didn't see anything notably incorrect in his write-up.

    If you are not comfortable with this repair, the dealer and most shops will recommend installing a new or reman starter. They are spendy.

    -B-
     
  5. txlandc

    txlandc

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    Photoman and Beowulf,
    Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I should have listened to the truck the first time but thought there may have been a momentary glitch in the system that would magically fix itself. It's pretty obvious that she's needing a little more attention now. I'll be checking w/the dealer for the contact kits today.
     
  6. txlandc

    txlandc

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    Beowulf,
    Is there any reason not to use the 2.0kw starter kit (even if the original was the 1.4kw?
     
  7. Brentbba

    Brentbba Former Golfer SILVER Star

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    txlandc,

    Oh my god - dejavu! FIX IT NOW!!!!!!!!!! (SHOUTING NECESSARY HERE)

    I had the EXACT problem. Ignored the initial clicking as I knew it was just the starter going. Had the exact symptoms you describe with the rough idle and sound of starter just not wanting to quit grinding. Started with just one or two extra and got worse. I went one start too many and it fried my starter and alternator. Had to be flatbedded to the dealer. $1000 later I had a rebuilt starter and alternator installed. Battery had been drained, but it held a charge. Please listen to Beo and Photo and my voice of experience. If what they are recommending, and they are usually right on with their advice, you will save yourself alot of $$$$.
     
  8. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Txlandc,

    I wish I had a definitive answer for you but I just have an educated guess; use the 2.0kw kit if your dealer has it in stock. If not, use whatever kit he has in stock or can get you the quickest.

    If C-Dan wasn't out playing in the rocks he could answer this for us. You can also ask the parts manager at your dealer.

    -B-
     
  9. ParadiseCruiser

    ParadiseCruiser

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    Tx -

      Here are the p/n's for the solenoid contacts:

      1.4 kw starter
         pos -  28226-64370
         neg -  28226-74070

      2.0 kw starter
         pos -  28226-66060
         neg -  28226-72010
         plunger -  28235-54380

       Mine uses a 2 kw, and the plunger was pretty shabby so I replaced it as well - didn't want to pull the starter a second time.

       IIRC, the surface area on 1.4 kw contacts is noticably smaller, but I do not have the magic answer about whether the 2.0 contacts will fit in a 1.4 solenoid - because both of the starters I have here are 2.0, and I've never done this job on a 1.4 starter.

      Good luck with it !

      R -
     
  10. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    >> ... the plunger was pretty shabby so I replaced it <<
    >> as well - didn't want to pull the starter a second time. <<

    Good point and you should clean yours up with sandpaper or emory cloth if you don't buy a new one. The plunger is about $25.

    -B-
     
  11. Chris_Geiger

    Chris_Geiger

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    I still laugh when I see that picture. That blue background is a paper towel. I shot that photo in a motel the night before a run while I was 1/2 a sleep. I drove out to death valley for a trail run and was planning to spend the night before hitting the trail early in the morning. After droping off the wife at the motel I was going to gas. When I went to start it, I got nothing. I had the replacment contacts in my tool box and went ahead and replaced them right there in the motel parking lot.
     
  12. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Chris,

    Written By Chris Geiger

    Didn't even notice that you were the original author. I used that article when I did mine about 2 years ago. Nice photos and nice write-up. I point people to it frequently.

    How about one for the 80 series that includes pics of the starter removal? :G

    -B-
     
  13. txlandc

    txlandc

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    Beowulf,
    Wish I would have thought of bringing the digital camera home last night. I could've had some great pics of removing the starter. It may be a two bannana job but I think it's worth 4 bannanas just to get the starter off the engine. The mounting bolts for the starter are a real PITA. If someone has a secret as to how to properly use the universal joint attachment to remove either one of them then I'd love to hear what it is. With that said, I was able to use an assortment of extensions, sockets, rachets and breaker bars to actually get the leverage neeeded and a straight shot at both of them (through the wheel well for the front and underneath for the back). Turns out it was the 2.0kw starter and I've gone ahead and replaced the whole thing (couldn't get the contacts from the dealers without special ordering and didn't want to wait). I'll rebuild the old one and keep for spare. Or maybe pass on to someone else. The remanufactured starter is not cheap.

    Thanks again for the help.
     
  14. Chris_Geiger

    Chris_Geiger

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    With 140K miles on my 80 I know it's going to need new contacts soon. I have a set of contacts on order with the dealer. I will make sure to take some pics when I do it. Hopefully I don't put it off till the last minute this time! :)
     
  15. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Chris brings up a good point for one and all.

    The OEM starters are very well built and will probably last 300k miles. The contacts can't last that long though and most get replaced around 100k miles. If you are reasonably proficient with a wrench and want to save yourself $300-$500 or you don't want to be stranded out of town or on the trail, then order a set of the contacts and throw them in with your spare fan belts and spare hoses.

    Spares are good insurance and you WILL need them. &nbsp:Don't be forced into buying a new or reman because you are on the road or can't wait for the parts to be ordered.

    -B-
     
  16. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    TxLandC,

    >> If someone has a secret as to how to properly <<
    >> use the universal joint attachment to remove <<
    >> either one of them then I'd love to hear what it is. <<

    Getting to the front bolt that holds the starter to the engine is fairly easy as I recall. It's been almost 2 years so this is a little fuzzy. I used a flex head ratchet, then about 2' of 3/8" extension, then the 17mm (14mm?) socket. Regular 6pt, not a deep socket. I think a U-joint at the ratchet end would do the same thing. Fishing the starter out while you are under the truck is a little frustrating but it will come out of there.

    Don't drop it on your noggin; it's heavy.

    -B-
     
  17. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    Late to the party.

    The 2.0 kw starter is generaly used in vehicles with "cold kits" I have never encountered a 1.4 kw starter on a 1FZ in this part of the country. As a side note the 93 models had a 2.2 kw starter. This was the only year for this particular starter and they do not have the same penchant for eating up contacts as the 2.0 kw units do. The 2.2 kw starters use diferent part number contacts than the 2.0 kw units.

    Dan
     
  18. scottm

    scottm

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    I ordered three contact kits trying to get the 2.0kW, from a knowledgeable and trusted dealer. They all came with the smaller, 1.4kW style contacts. I gave up and put them in both my cruisers with 2.0kW starters, so far so good. My local dealer sells the contacts and plungers without the whole kit of O-rings, paper insulators, copper nuts, etc. They're aftermarket by the original vendor, 1.4kW style, inexpensive. That's what they install.

    The only difference I can see from the 1.4kW to the 2.0kW kit was one contact was a little wider. Same plunger and other contact. I still have one extra set if you're near Holland, Michigan. I'll let you know how they held up in 100k ::)
     
  19. ParadiseCruiser

    ParadiseCruiser

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    D -

    >> The 2.2 kw starters use diferent part number contacts than the 2.0 kw units.

    Will those 2.2 kw contacts fit in a 2.0 kw starter? I've got a spare 2.0 torn apart on the bench at the moment, and I wouldn't mind installing the larger contacts if they will fit... p/n's ?

    Thanks.

    R -