Lol govt procurement... They'll spend crazy money studying options, reports, testing... And ultimately they'll just pick one cuz it looks cooler. Apparently the people who make these decisions get bonus points if they choose the crappiest crap available. Do not under any circumstances base your decisions on what the govt chose. Protip: the phrase "military grade" is a joke
Ford 7.3 vs. 6.0 need 'mud opinion (1 Viewer)
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I appreciate you creating a profile for this one comment as a belated reply for something said weeks ago.
While I have no love of federal, state, or local dealings, fire departments have no love of equipment that's down, so I'd think they've invested some time to look at their gear before purchasing.
Fxxx your shiny new truck. My beat up '99 7.3 will outlast it...
I have a 97 F250 crew cab single rear wheel 5 speed and love it. Sure there are faster nicer trucks out there, but I have every bit of confidence in mine. I tow my cruiser with no problems. The odometer has never worked either...
Oh, I don't owe an nickle on it.
IPOR
IronPigOffroad.com
So let's fast forward for a couple years. All 6.0 Fords are gone from the IPOR stable. Perfect maintenance records, no tuners, nothing but problems. The head gasket and EGR are the least of your concerns with one of those lemons - fuel injection is fatally flawed with no aftermarket fix. We went through fuel injectors faster than oil changes... (Hot Shot Secret does not work, don't waste your money)
December 2011 my 07 F250 was running out of warranty and to be honest I just couldn't afford to keep it on the road if I had to pay for all of the constant repairs.
I looked at the ford 6.7 but it was brand new and I was fresh from getting severely burned on a $40k+ truck that was worth less than half that 5 years later. I ultimately bought a new Dodge with the Cummins.
I had looked at Dodge in 07 but they were junk inside... then Fiat came in... yeah, I laugh at that too but you can ask anyone that has ridden in my 2012 Dodge Megacab Cummins Diesel that it is the most comfortable, most powerful truck they've ever ridden in or driven. Fiat added interior comforts to match (and exceed) ford, and with 800 lb/ft of torque it's ridiculously overpowered. It also DOES NOT REQUIRE DEF.
We just got back a few days ago from a trip to Windrock ORV park in TN and my truck pulling 15,000 lbs averaged 10 MPG. Take that for what it's worth, the ford 7.3 that went with us (my dad's, bone stock 240k miles, dealer serviced it's entire life) towing a similar load got the same MPG so no "oh my 7.3 would have done better". (and the Dodge got home a lot faster because it pulled the mountains at speed limit +5 where the 7.3 pulled at speed limit -25) Power wise there is no comparison - the 7.3 is an absolute dog when compared to the new 6.7 Cummins... but it get's the job done. My brother in law has a 99 7.3 with over 450,000 miles on it - he's replaced some parts along the way but nothing you wouldn't expect in 1/2 million miles. Major engine components are original, new trans at 300k, still quite impressive. I would be proud to own a 7.3 and you will be too. (though your neighbors might not like it if you're an early riser, LOL!)
The biggest difference between all of these trucks is the price tag. You can buy a 7.3 for peanuts compared to strolling into a dealership and asking for a new Ford or Dodge. ($60k+)
If I had to buy an older tow rig I'd probably consider the ford 7.3 or a dodge 5.9. Both are incredibly durable/reliable/strong/noisy and cheap by comparison to the new trucks.
Stay away from the 6.0, there is NO WAY TO MAKE IT RELIABLE.
December 2011 my 07 F250 was running out of warranty and to be honest I just couldn't afford to keep it on the road if I had to pay for all of the constant repairs.
I looked at the ford 6.7 but it was brand new and I was fresh from getting severely burned on a $40k+ truck that was worth less than half that 5 years later. I ultimately bought a new Dodge with the Cummins.
I had looked at Dodge in 07 but they were junk inside... then Fiat came in... yeah, I laugh at that too but you can ask anyone that has ridden in my 2012 Dodge Megacab Cummins Diesel that it is the most comfortable, most powerful truck they've ever ridden in or driven. Fiat added interior comforts to match (and exceed) ford, and with 800 lb/ft of torque it's ridiculously overpowered. It also DOES NOT REQUIRE DEF.
We just got back a few days ago from a trip to Windrock ORV park in TN and my truck pulling 15,000 lbs averaged 10 MPG. Take that for what it's worth, the ford 7.3 that went with us (my dad's, bone stock 240k miles, dealer serviced it's entire life) towing a similar load got the same MPG so no "oh my 7.3 would have done better". (and the Dodge got home a lot faster because it pulled the mountains at speed limit +5 where the 7.3 pulled at speed limit -25) Power wise there is no comparison - the 7.3 is an absolute dog when compared to the new 6.7 Cummins... but it get's the job done. My brother in law has a 99 7.3 with over 450,000 miles on it - he's replaced some parts along the way but nothing you wouldn't expect in 1/2 million miles. Major engine components are original, new trans at 300k, still quite impressive. I would be proud to own a 7.3 and you will be too. (though your neighbors might not like it if you're an early riser, LOL!)
The biggest difference between all of these trucks is the price tag. You can buy a 7.3 for peanuts compared to strolling into a dealership and asking for a new Ford or Dodge. ($60k+)
If I had to buy an older tow rig I'd probably consider the ford 7.3 or a dodge 5.9. Both are incredibly durable/reliable/strong/noisy and cheap by comparison to the new trucks.
Stay away from the 6.0, there is NO WAY TO MAKE IT RELIABLE.
My neighbor has a 2011 or 2012 F-250 and his Diesel engine had a major internal failure a few weeks ago. A new engine was installed by Ford ( under warranty ) but the dealership said there had been numerous "major" issues with that particular engine.
I got a 01 7.3 with 230k+ with just a few issues in 12 years. The UVCH was acting up-$130 fix. I was towing my flats skiff to chase some reds. And it just shut off on me. I thought it was the cam sensor that they recalled. But it ended up being a wierd one. The threaded plug in a hole. Used to drill a oil circuit for the injectors. Had backed out on top of the head. They guys that fixed are 7.3 fanatics. That's all they own in their huge fleet of tow trucks and fleet repair. They said they have never seen that before. Guess I just got lucky. I thought I was looking at a $1600 repair bill. Ended up being $300. And I do have a pesky oil leak on top somewhere. I think its the HPOP somewhere.
arcteryx
Supporting Vendor
Neighbor 1 has a 6.0- had some problems, but the EGR delete and head studs seemed to fix it. Neighbor 2 just got an '11 F250. He had a 07 6.0 and it fell under the lemon law. He went through five- repeat, 5 engines! My FIL just got a '13 and my bro has an '12. No issues so far, but they are new.
My 2000 Ex hums along at 235K. Nothing major, just normal wear/tear items- alternator, ball joints, water pump. I wish it had a King Ranch interior as I like it, but reliability is more important
My 2000 Ex hums along at 235K. Nothing major, just normal wear/tear items- alternator, ball joints, water pump. I wish it had a King Ranch interior as I like it, but reliability is more important
35K, 17K of heavy towing and other than oil, DEF, and wheels/tires this week nothing wrong with my 11 6.7.
IPOR
IronPigOffroad.com
You must have the ford 6.7 because you mention DEF? (2011 Dodge doesn't require DEF) What is your oil change interval?
36K on my 11 dodge w/cummins 6.7 - heavy towing (15k towed load) and grocery getting - no problems. Mileage isn't great - 10 around town (3 mile trip radius) and when towing 15k. 18-20 unloaded on the interstate or country driving. Ridiculously overpowered though, hard to keep your foot off the skinny pedal. Would have preferred less power and better economy. Oil change interval is 5k on average - would have liked that to be more like the 7.5k they mention in the owners manual... $100 each time! Still very happy with finally having a reliable truck.
36K on my 11 dodge w/cummins 6.7 - heavy towing (15k towed load) and grocery getting - no problems. Mileage isn't great - 10 around town (3 mile trip radius) and when towing 15k. 18-20 unloaded on the interstate or country driving. Ridiculously overpowered though, hard to keep your foot off the skinny pedal. Would have preferred less power and better economy. Oil change interval is 5k on average - would have liked that to be more like the 7.5k they mention in the owners manual... $100 each time! Still very happy with finally having a reliable truck.
I know this is a ford thread but it appears overall you've had good service from the dodge with 6.7 (auto trans I assume). I run a GM 3/4 truck with 6.0 gas engine..performs well. I'm debating looking af a dodge 6.7 (prior to DEF). I tow around 9.5K overall weight and I'm thinking about a 3500 Crew Cab, long bed SRW. The truck I have a present does ok, but I'm right close to the tow rating and if I change trucks I'm really thinking about just going to 3500 for the bigger platform and brakes.
IPOR
IronPigOffroad.com
You may want to double check those specs. Normally the only difference between the 2500 and 3500 are the rear springs. I have a friend with a 2012 identical to mine except 2500 instead of the 3500 I have. He tows a tandem trailer 15k with his too - no issues. The only thing I notice is that his is more comfortable to ride around town in - less of the harsh bounce associated with the stiff 1 ton springs. Still pulls the tandem just as well and we seem to load tongue weight almost the same. I used to think I needed a 3500, but now I'm pretty sure a 2500 would have been better. If I were a contractor that constantly loaded the bed of the truck to capacity things might be different... but I'm just a wheeler...
Also, do the math on economy and make sure you're making the right decision. Diesel around here is $.45 more per gallon than regular unleaded... and the diesel engine adds about $10k to the cost!
My 2002 7.3 crew cab has been awesome. Had the high pressure oil pump spew its guts at around 140k miles. Otherwise nothing major. Ebpv might get stuck part way open....mine did, i put on a new turbo pedestal and outlet, got rid of the ebpv all together. Its been greAt.
173k on the clock and goin strong
173k on the clock and goin strong
Yeah I hear you... For what I have now..GM 07 2500 HD extended cab pickup with 6.0 gas engine and 3.73...the tow rating is 10K as I recall or close. I'm not overly concerned about being out of my capacity in this consideration of a swap.
Its really not a clean decision on the "math"...as the math does not work anyway. I've given up on making the math work for my hobby stuff and I do agree with you that a 2500 is capable for what I do. I think purely driven from the $$ a GM 6.0 gas truck is not a bad choice..until you hit the heavy haul weight and you get into capability question (which is not my problem based on what I have now, what I tow now).
I may stay in the GM brand and even go with another 6.0 gas setup purely based on what I tow and the fuel costs/maintenance cost.
I do know I want a 4 door setup over the extended cab I have now, and I probably will go with long bed too.
Bouncing things around in my "mind"..not much up there anyway
I do like the old school fords in 7.3 turbo (power-stroke) mode but not going there as I want something 07 or newer in the year range.
IPOR
IronPigOffroad.com
I'm not a dodge guy... really. But they look like they're coming out with a light duty diesel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPGECrBvnS4
At 210hp and 450ft/lb torque it's more powerful than the 7.3 ford in stock trim...
Not sure about the asking price, for another $5k you might have a cummins engine (400hp/800torque) rather than a fiat. As a dyed in the wool American I've often bemoaned offshore brands - learned otherwise with the Toyota pickups in the 80's, and have to say that fiat has greatly improved product quality in my dodge truck. Just saying it's worth looking into as much as any other on the market. (are there other light duty diesels on the market?)
As I've said, there's no shame in the 7.3 ford, or duramax engines, they all have good track records. I'm certain to draw criticism here but I have to point out that there's a reason why ford uses the Cummins ISB in their heavy duty trucks...
At 210hp and 450ft/lb torque it's more powerful than the 7.3 ford in stock trim...
Not sure about the asking price, for another $5k you might have a cummins engine (400hp/800torque) rather than a fiat. As a dyed in the wool American I've often bemoaned offshore brands - learned otherwise with the Toyota pickups in the 80's, and have to say that fiat has greatly improved product quality in my dodge truck. Just saying it's worth looking into as much as any other on the market. (are there other light duty diesels on the market?)
As I've said, there's no shame in the 7.3 ford, or duramax engines, they all have good track records. I'm certain to draw criticism here but I have to point out that there's a reason why ford uses the Cummins ISB in their heavy duty trucks...
IPOR
IronPigOffroad.com
Toyota w/Cummins
Uh-oh... if there's any validity to this article it changes everything...
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/toyota-may-join-the-diesel-pickup-fray.html/?ref=YF
Uh-oh... if there's any validity to this article it changes everything...
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/toyota-may-join-the-diesel-pickup-fray.html/?ref=YF
arcteryx
Supporting Vendor
yowzer, me likey that tundra!!
I don't see Toyota putting a cummins in their products...just purely on brand hype. I'm not an old school Toyota guy, but I'm not aware of where Toyota has ever run anything other than their own engine/driveline...not to say they may have based some designs on similar engines..(old school I-6).
I think Dodge had no other choice and Cummins is a good choice. GM has had partial ownership in Isuzu for some time (duramax source). As everyone knows Ford has had a funny relationship with international for some time.
Even in the big rig business you can't order a Peterbilt with a 60 Series Detroit or any of the Caterpillar engines...based on a falling out with brand and parent company ownership issues. Peterbilt as I understand it now offers or will offer soon their own brand of Class 8 engine power and still offers Cummins in their trucks. Caterpillar said at one time they would get out of the Class 8 market in regard to engines.... they then stop production only to then start back up and magically they have developed their own class 8 truck...which I'm sure the timing of that was purely coincidental and guess what..powers the caterpillar truck?
I believe Toyota makes a 1 ton in the commercial market?
For whatever reason I don't know if Toyota has any interest in the 3/4 and 1 ton pickup truck market...they seem to offer a car/suv/truck in about all other segments of the auto market.
I think Dodge had no other choice and Cummins is a good choice. GM has had partial ownership in Isuzu for some time (duramax source). As everyone knows Ford has had a funny relationship with international for some time.
Even in the big rig business you can't order a Peterbilt with a 60 Series Detroit or any of the Caterpillar engines...based on a falling out with brand and parent company ownership issues. Peterbilt as I understand it now offers or will offer soon their own brand of Class 8 engine power and still offers Cummins in their trucks. Caterpillar said at one time they would get out of the Class 8 market in regard to engines.... they then stop production only to then start back up and magically they have developed their own class 8 truck...which I'm sure the timing of that was purely coincidental and guess what..powers the caterpillar truck?
I believe Toyota makes a 1 ton in the commercial market?
For whatever reason I don't know if Toyota has any interest in the 3/4 and 1 ton pickup truck market...they seem to offer a car/suv/truck in about all other segments of the auto market.
IPOR
IronPigOffroad.com
I have to agree with you about running their own motor - even more important is that they not "share" a powerplant with any other car company and Nissan has already issued a press release saying they plan to use this new Cummins v8. Putting the Cummins name on the trucks will certainly help them sell, even if it is a brand new unproven motor.
Given that Ford's F series trucks sell twice that of Toyota's best selling model (camry) I think Toyota has an interest in the truck market and will eventually expand into the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. Nontheless, the often promised Toyota diesel might as well be a flying unicorn if you ask me...
It is my understanding that Navistar (International) builds the Cat trucks and that Cat provides components for Navistar engines.
They quit the class 8 engine business when all the EPA regen regulations started.