2FE vs 3FE (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter woytovich
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gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
Agreed...
@Trollhole Please PLEASE take some decent videos when you get it up and running.. I have only found 2 on youtube.
Very interested in this myself. Also what you have to adjust, fix ext. i will be purchasing mine in two weeks and how you find this install will really make up my mind.
Are you getting the Distributor from them as well?
I have tbi on my fj40 with 2f. I am pretty happy with it. I can program chips as well, sometimes when Im bored I modify by program a little here and their. To get it perfect I would need to take it to a tuner with a dyno as thats the only way to dial in the timing map perfectly. Mine runs very well though in my opinion and has great power. Much much better than any carbed setup. When I go out wheelin with other cruisers, people always comment how strong my motor sounds. When I drove from moab to denver, I got 16mpg doing 70mph with a sm465, 35" krawlers, and going up and down mountain passes. Ive since tweaked the bin more for power, so I don't think I can get this mileage right now, but its a simple tweak in the bin to get the mileage back. What really affected my ability to tune the chip for the better was installing a wide band O2 gauge and sensor which has come way down in price and into my price range.(130$ on ebay) With that I was able to see more insight into why my bin was running the way it was and try to make the appropriate adjustments. I also purchased the app for my android phone called aldl droid. It allows me to stream live data to my phone or tablet via bluetooth. Its pretty cool to see all the different readings the ol 2f is putting out on a modern tablet. It was through the live data that I noticed my tps was out of adjustment, and my map sensor wasn't reading very well. You can do it cheaply if you want by scrounging junk yards. Depends on how much of a project you want. You could definetly install a little at a time to keep the truck on the road. Just install the throttle body, distributor, and fuel pump last. But honestly for the effort that would take, you would be better off just getting the afi kit. You can upgrade the factory gm computer to be flashable rather than have to burn chips. Look up EBL GM computer. Its about 450$ to upgrade it but it also has the ability to self learn the volumetric efficiency tables. But if you want it absolutely perfect, you will have to take it to a tuner.
The other thing to keep in mind when getting junk yard parts is how old this stuff is getting. A 20 year old gm map sensor, is going to be a bad sensor.(For example right now my throttle body is worn out, I bought a kit to repair it, but until I do fix it, I had to compensate in my bin to make the idle right. It idles fine pretty much, but once I fix the throttle body I may have to go in and modify my bin a little.) If you get the AFI(or some other kit, Downey has a kit too on ebay) kit and you have a bad sensor, you call them up, tell them you got a bad sensor, and they send you another one. They also provide you with a distributor that is all ready to go as opposed to the route I took in modifying a fj60 distributor to work.-Not super hard to do, but doing all these little things yourself adds up in time. So you save some headaches by buying a kit.
I have heard good things about the AFI bin, I emailed them to try and get one of their chips and I was going to put it in my chip reader and look at the file. But they were unwilling to do that. After working on my bin, I understand as it is a lot of time involved getting it dialed in. Turbo city used to make a kit, I emailed them to get their bin, but the computer they had all their tbi stuff on is so old, they had no way to download it and email it to me. I have found that the stock gm ecm is pretty flexible, and if you know what your doing you can make it work for you almost like a standalone. But still the obstacle to overcome is programming a chip, running it, pulling it out, modifying it, running it etc. Thats time consuming. Thats where the option to upgrade to the EBL ECM makes up for this. Mine runs so good, Im not sure if I will get it. If I put a turbo on, then I will probably have it upgraded to the EBL as it can be tuned for boost much easier than the stock gm ecm. The few things I don't care for with the AFI kit, is that it doesn't look like it comes with a speed sensor, and I don't really like the adapter for the throttle body. But I have heard people be happy running without a speed sensor. I never was, so I added it and like it with better than without. Its not hard to add the speed sensor, and you can always do it later.
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Here is the live data app. No need for additional gauges, I have my tablet or phone.
TBI with factory air cleaner. U have to space the air cleaner so it sits higher. 4 plus products has nice aluminum hat spacer/adapters for this. I just fabbed my own a long time ago. This allows u to retain all the emissions equipment which is required in my state.
GM coil stuff which connects to my fj60 distributor. This allows you to have total control of your timing curve through the ECM, if you wanted a simpler setup you could just keep the stock distributor and keep it mechanical. You can always add this portion later.
TBI with factory air cleaner. U have to space the air cleaner so it sits higher. 4 plus products has nice aluminum hat spacer/adapters for this. I just fabbed my own a long time ago. This allows u to retain all the emissions equipment which is required in my state.
GM coil stuff which connects to my fj60 distributor. This allows you to have total control of your timing curve through the ECM, if you wanted a simpler setup you could just keep the stock distributor and keep it mechanical. You can always add this portion later.
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TOYOTA LANDCRUISER 2F 6Cylinder Complete TBI Fuel Injection Conversion
Contact those guys in Michigan. It runs fine. MPG went from 8.9 to 16.1 on the same run. Clearly there were other issues but it cleaned them up.
2ftbi-h55f-toybox-split-4.88's. Stalling was also my motivation to abandon the carb.
I may go to a 6.5td someday, but this has been a great stopgap measure. The "f" series are 80 yo hammers, and the 3fe fi system is no technological wonder. A 2fe is the best motor in a dreamland of toyota purity if time stood still in 1987.
I had this kit on, and purring in a day, and I admittedly don't know what I'm doing. I cant see a reason to bother with a 2fe other than the conversation factor.
Contact those guys in Michigan. It runs fine. MPG went from 8.9 to 16.1 on the same run. Clearly there were other issues but it cleaned them up.
2ftbi-h55f-toybox-split-4.88's. Stalling was also my motivation to abandon the carb.
I may go to a 6.5td someday, but this has been a great stopgap measure. The "f" series are 80 yo hammers, and the 3fe fi system is no technological wonder. A 2fe is the best motor in a dreamland of toyota purity if time stood still in 1987.
I had this kit on, and purring in a day, and I admittedly don't know what I'm doing. I cant see a reason to bother with a 2fe other than the conversation factor.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
Wow thanks for the write-up/response @White Stripe!!! Awesome awesome information in there. I had to read it a few times to get everything but sounds like you are getting good mpgs and power from the TBI "kit" in your 40. Wondering if the difference in weight between the 40 and 60, stock just for posterity sake, would make for a larger compensation in the mpgs.
More than likely those of us that would be doing the junkyard pull for the "kit" would probably do certain things like rebuild the TBI, use new sensors, etc. to ensure that the system is running properly from the start. While a little extra cost, I am sure the difference is negligible. And the thing (possible benefit) with the junkyard kit is that you can take your time searching and gathering items for the system to help spread the cost out if needed. Plus if you hit the half price members days, well at least for Pick n Pull, you can get things SUPER cheap. But again that comes down to planning things out and knowing exactly what you are looking for and possibly scouting beforehand.
Couple things I have read about the TBI kit/setup...
- HEI DUI distributors have a tendency to go out due to poor manufacturing of some of the internal parts. Some guys have them go out within months of install and some have them last years. Seems like the best "quality" route is to go with the modified 60 dizzy.
- Regarding the VSS/Speed sensor... it seems this is only needed if the users plans to allow the ECU/PCM to control the spark advance. If not then the system seems to run fine without. Most of what I have read seems to find the JTR VSS does the best job.
- The engine being used must have decent compression to ensure good use of the system. While I have read a couple people state this in random threads I have not seen anything to back it up.
It seems like there is basically two ways to go about this;
1. Set and forget.. You buy a kit from AFI, Howell, Downey, etc. and allow them to be support and handle everything. The kits will run anywhere from $1400 - $2000 depending on who and what you get. However, the kit has EVERYTHING you need and most products will either be used or refurbished/rebuilt products in good working order. Like @White Stripe said, if you have an O2 sensor go bad you call them up and submit a warranty claim.
2. Junkyard Build..... You hunt and peck for all the necessary parts and are responsible for them all. You are your own support group but allows some freedom in selection of parts, pricing, amortization of costs, etc. However, it could be the perpetual project that never truly gets finished. This also requires you to either invest in a burner utility/hardware so you can burn your own ECM chips OR rely on someone else to do for you. The benefit with burning your own chips is it allows you to tweak and tune to your hearts delight.
Anyways, just my thought process going through this. The ability for the ALDL mobile information is very cool and does allow for the instant review of information when you are driving which can help things A LOT.
My compression varies from 113 to 150. the computer controls the advance. i set the plug gaps at .05 from .032 (HEI, but no difference noticed). There is no VSS.
I read all the same stuff, and threw the dice. It works.
I'm considering a 50,000v coil.
I read all the same stuff, and threw the dice. It works.
I'm considering a 50,000v coil.
Keep in mind if u get the EBL upgrade to the ECM you no longer have to burn chips. Just plug a laptop into the ECM and upload a new bin into the ECM. Not worth investing in a burner in my opinion. Just get the EBL upgrade.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
But that also runs the assumption that someone;
a) has a laptop
b) has one capable of running said program
c) has a WINDOWS laptop
My household is a strictly mac household and my wife is the only one with a WORK laptop (she would kill me if I installed a partition with Windows whatever on it). However, costs of laptops with the EBL upgrade is comparable to the necessity and time for the burner.
U don't need a fancy laptop. A crappy old one off of Craigslist would work. The software doesn't take much computing power at all. I didn't know people were having trouble with the hei distributors. Im using a jags that run vss. It works good.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
Yeah I read some posts, remember though these are a number of years old so may not be accurate anymore, where guys were having the HEI/DUI dizzy's detonate on them, something to do with the bushing that holds the shaft was poorly made quality and would eventually egg out allowing the weights to contact the inside and eventually, boom.
Cruiserdrew
On the way there
This got a little off the original question, but here is my $0.02.
A 3FE is a much better motor than a 2F. Much better. I have 150K+ miles experience driving both and can say this without a doubt. It's the switch to fuel injection that is the life changer. A 3FE with a manual transmission drives very well and does not feel terribly under powered like every 2F I have ever driven. So in my view, a complete, existing 3FE would work great for the OP with the obvious simplicity of just re-using an existing motor. It sounds like this truck is only driven for fun and so you don't need a brand new motor.
Given that you can typically buy a running FJ62 either wrecked, rusted or bad tranny with a perfectly good motor, I would do that and swap all the needed parts into @woytovich 's FJ60. I would not bother to build a 2FE, but would instead just continue to run a working 3FE. If you buy a complete truck, you will have the motor and fuel tank, and you will be sure to have all the needed small parts and electronics. Replace the wear items and good to go.
A 3FE is a much better motor than a 2F. Much better. I have 150K+ miles experience driving both and can say this without a doubt. It's the switch to fuel injection that is the life changer. A 3FE with a manual transmission drives very well and does not feel terribly under powered like every 2F I have ever driven. So in my view, a complete, existing 3FE would work great for the OP with the obvious simplicity of just re-using an existing motor. It sounds like this truck is only driven for fun and so you don't need a brand new motor.
Given that you can typically buy a running FJ62 either wrecked, rusted or bad tranny with a perfectly good motor, I would do that and swap all the needed parts into @woytovich 's FJ60. I would not bother to build a 2FE, but would instead just continue to run a working 3FE. If you buy a complete truck, you will have the motor and fuel tank, and you will be sure to have all the needed small parts and electronics. Replace the wear items and good to go.
Well the OP came to the conclusion to leave his current setup alone, so we kinda just started talking about the 3fe fuel injection versus tbi on our own after that.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
@Cruiserdrew I think you are partially right about the 3FE swap being the best of both worlds. Main reasoning for me would be space... In your example you would have to have the ability to a.) store a second vehicle, and b.) dispose of unused parts after being done. Seeing as @woytovich lives in NYC Metro I doubt he has that kind of room unless the vehicle sits on the street. The engine alone with everything would be awesome but again would require extra space to be able to move engine(s) around plus having a stand, crane/hoist, etc. Simplest solution at this point is still the TBI kit purely because of the fact that it could fit in a box and be stored somewhere.. Don't get me wrong, when I thought my head was cracked at the beginning of the year the first thing I looked into was getting a low mileage 3FE with all the parts and whatnot to swap in. Like I have said before, there are TONS of personal variables that have to play into the decision for each person. But then again to your point, the 3FE may be easier as sourcing parts for the TBI kit (junkyard kit) I assume would be difficult as I assume that junkyards in the NYC area are pretty scarce or require a decent amount of traveling.
The one other main benefit I could see of the TBI kit is the ability to tune it, where as the 3FE would be a simple drop and stop as I have not heard of any ability to tune the 3FEs system like the TBI system. Again, ultimately it is all personal preference.
You guys up in NY must have some amazing junkyards if Fj62 are kicking around.
In VA, these seems to few and far between. TBI's are easier to come by for sure. I am interested in seeing how the AFI install goes.
+ i am keeping an eye out. I understood 3FE parts are getting hard to come by.
Like the OP Woytovich. this thread is super interesting and getting better daily.
In VA, these seems to few and far between. TBI's are easier to come by for sure. I am interested in seeing how the AFI install goes.
+ i am keeping an eye out. I understood 3FE parts are getting hard to come by.
Like the OP Woytovich. this thread is super interesting and getting better daily.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
Also found this recently... kind of a half kit but nice that it lists EXACTLY what you will need with part numbers..
1969-87 Toyota Landcruiser TBI Fuel Injection Kit
I would probably see if I could take the air cleaner head and adapt it to an 80 series bucket and tophat.
1969-87 Toyota Landcruiser TBI Fuel Injection Kit
I would probably see if I could take the air cleaner head and adapt it to an 80 series bucket and tophat.
gregnash
Anal Retentive Analyst
OK well work is incredibly slow today and I am bored so doing some digging.... I am gonna post links I find here with regards to TBI conversion.
Toyota 2F EFI Conversion to GM 1227747 - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
(referenced in above forum thread as having stock BIN files for the 4.3 TBI and 747ECU) http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227747/
2f Tbi install
Specific 2F BIN file from MUD member...2F Efi conversion
Toyota 2F EFI Conversion to GM 1227747 - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
(referenced in above forum thread as having stock BIN files for the 4.3 TBI and 747ECU) http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227747/
2f Tbi install
Specific 2F BIN file from MUD member...2F Efi conversion
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If you have to pass emissions, the stock air filter housing is easiest to adapt. That ebay listing is actually Jim-he is the former owner of downey offroad. He has adapters for sale on his ebay page to tbi. Ive always liked his adapters.
