2FE into an FJ80 – discussion

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by RockDoc, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. RockDoc

    RockDoc my bad habit SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,205
    Location:
    SW MB, Ca
    A number of “2FE” engines have been built and installed into 40s, 60s, 62s and possibly iron pigs as well. The obvious member of the family that is missing (as far as I know) is the 80. As someone with a 2FE in the final assembly stage, I thought I would start a thread in this section to get some discussion going on that possibility. It seems there is interest, so to get the ball rolling here’s some of the info that’s already out there.

    What is a 2FE?
    It is basically a 3FE built with the block and rotating assembly of a 2F, and whichever set of accessories work for the application (2F in a 40 or 60, 3FE in a 62 and presumably in an 80 as well).
    Here’s what I wrote in my thread when lt1fire popped his head in and asked:

    The strong points of a 2F are in the bottom end. Longer stroke, longer rods, taller, more stable pistons, IIRC a stronger crank. The bottom end of a 3FE is somewhat weaker. To shorten the deck the geometries were changed. On top of the shorter stroke it also has a much short rod and a shorter piston. The shorter rod means greater a greater maximum angle with respect to the centerline of the bore, and the shorter piston is less stable. Additionally, on a 3FE at bottom dead center the entire piston skirt has dropped out of the bore. With the 2F a portion of the skirt also drops below the bore, but it is slightly less in absolute amount, and significantly less in terms of proportional length than with the 3FE, since the 2F piston is much taller.

    See diagram and chart here: IH8MUD.com - View Single Post - 2F + 3F-E = 2F-ETI Into My FJ40

    The strength of the 3FE is in the top end. The head has a tighter combustion chamber, the exhaust ports are bigger, the intake manifold and exhaust manifolds are both a more smooth flowing design than on the 2F, and of course you have a multiport fuel injection system, with all the engine management and fuel mixture benefits that come with it.

    Compared to a 2F, you get better fuel management, and I would think an engine more suited to higher revs with the improved intake and exhaust. Compared to a 3FE, you get more low end grunt because of the extra stroke length (my 3FE doesn't really come alive till ~2500, but is strong in the 3000-4000 range) and you get a bottom end that while heavier, is supposedly stronger and better able to handle revs in the 4000-5000 range.

    The 60 series trucks are well suited to fit a 2FE, since the 60 came with a 2F and was designed to accommodate the “extra” 2" of engine height. In a 60 or 62 with a 2FE, apparently the top of the intake manifold just rubs on the hood liner. With the 80 series trucks, I understand that under-hood clearance is an obstacle for fitting a 2FE, you would either need a body lift, or a modified hood to get the clearance.


    There is documentation of several 2FE builds, from basically stock assembly, to absolutely no holds barred. The following are some of the links.

    Some discussion on the real world results of a 2FE swap (and TBI 2F as well): http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/171806-2f-3fe-head-injection-real-world-stories-please.html
    Tonkota’s stock 2FE into a 62, pdf format: http://www.steelnthings.com/TLCA/2Fswap/2feswap.pdf
    CruisinFJ60’s 2FE for Fiona thread, not completed yet - http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/230794-2f-e-swap-fiona.html
    Pappy’s 2FE built for torque by DOA, pdf format: http://bushrat.hdcruisers.org/3FEconversion.pdf
    My 2FE build thread, in final assembly currently: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/277349-help-me-plan-2fe.html
    Top end work on mine: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/253031-improving-flow-3fe-s-top-end.html
    Matt’s turbo-intercooled 2FE for his 40: http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/134529-2f-3f-e-2f-eti-into-my-fj40.html

    Results? Well Pappy and Matt both have dynoed their trucks.

    Pappy’s rig (again built for torque, not revving) :
    “124rwhp @ 3250rpm and 233rwlbft @1950rpm
    The engine made +200lbft between 1150 and 3250rpm, again, at the rear wheels. That potentially equals 284lbft and 151hp at the crank assuming a conservative 18% loss through the drive train. Torque increased 42% over a 2F, and 29% over a 3FE. The torque curve was nearly ruler flat. This engine is a monster in my light FJ40.”

    Matt’s super 2FE (turbo-intercooled):
    “DYNO'd at 8PSI 181kw/244hp & 560Nm/413ftlb @ the RW 8th Dec 08
    EST @ FLY 283KW/379HP”


    Hurdles for putting a 2FE into an 80….
    Underhood clearance. The 2FE will be 2” taller than a 3FE, is there room? Body lift or hood modification to clear?
    Mating the 2F crank to the A440F. Did the bolt pattern for the 3FE crank change between the 62 and the 80? Use a 62 flexplate? Got to a manual and part-time 4WD with a H42F/H55F-splitcase combo?
    Other issues?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  2. Ebag333

    Ebag333

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    8,163
    Location:
    Medford, OR
    A 2" body lift isn't terribly difficult and should give you plenty of room.
     
  3. Land Speeder

    Land Speeder InstaH8R

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    10,394
    Location:
    Valley of the Heroes
    I like this idea. I would like to swap a 3FE into my 94... the only thing holding me back is the wiring harness and having to handle all the small electrical gremlins that will obviously ensue.... I'm an idiot when it comes to those.

    the easiest swap to me would be a 91-92 and just put the bottom end of the 2F in it and run the manny tranny and xfer from the 60... bhmmapping just put the manny tranny and xfer into his 92 behind the 3FE and it's nothing but saweet! I've been in two trips around the neighborhood in it and it feels awesome and has gained alot of power
     
  4. Ebag333

    Ebag333

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    8,163
    Location:
    Medford, OR

    Those are very respectable numbers, but it seems you could drop in a 1FZ-FE much simpler (and probably less expensive). Granted it's probably going to be less torque and more HP geared than the 2FE, so different purposes (tractor motor vs all around).

    It'd be easier starting from a FJ-80 rather than an FZJ-80 I suppose.
     
  5. Hilux

    Hilux

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,163
    Location:
    Nashville Tn.
    This post makes the point about a stroker in a deep AT overdrive tranny, and a shallow to no overdrive 4 or 5 speed...

    And this one kinda backs up my questionable math...

     
  6. Hilux

    Hilux

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,163
    Location:
    Nashville Tn.
    And, no... I've never owned a 2Fe... But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
     
  7. RockDoc

    RockDoc my bad habit SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,205
    Location:
    SW MB, Ca
    For the record, the 3FE makes 155hp @ 4000 rpm, 4500 is the redline.
     
  8. jrdobbs03

    jrdobbs03

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Western Washington
    I PM'd Rock Doc earlier. I picked up a 2F here awhile back and am now looking for a 3FE, so I can start building the motor without pulling mine. I was already planning on doing a body lift, not 2" worth but if that's what it will take; I've seen that number batted around, but haven't seen a hard messurments. Any info anyone might have on mating to the transmission would be pretty handy. Thanks, and with my work scheldule it'll be one slow build.
     
  9. bhmmapping

    bhmmapping SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Messages:
    3,704
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    I think the transmission should bolt right up. I bolted a 2f flywheel to my 3fe and the bolt holes had to be just slightly enlarged. Based on that the bolt holes for the a440 flex plate might be a little big, but I wouldn't think that would matter. If it really was a concern you could probably get a flex plate from a 62.
     
  10. alkaline747trio

    alkaline747trio

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,570
    Location:
    Albemarle NC
    There is enough room above the PS reservoir cap for a can of dip to fit between it and the hood padding, so I would assume 1.5" is the max BL one would need to fit the 2FE under the hood of an 80.
     
  11. lt1fire

    lt1fire

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    13,512
    Location:
    Charlotte N.C.
    I'll ask it again in this thread.
    Would the MPG be about the same?? Worse? More (since the lower tq would help you stay off the skinny pedal)?
     
  12. RockDoc

    RockDoc my bad habit SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,205
    Location:
    SW MB, Ca
    I don't have an answer for that myself, and won't have a proper answer once mine goes in since it has had a lot of work done that will push it away from "stock" numbers. I believe Tonkota's 2FE is basically a stock build + cam, I'll see if he'll chime in.
     
  13. Godwin

    Godwin Resident Herpetologist SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,772
    Location:
    Alabama
    x2 on thinking that the transmission will bolt up. Bolt hole size may or may not be an issue. I put a 2F flywheel on a 3FE crank and did not have to enlarge the holes in the flywheel, but this was with a 3FE from a FJ62.
     
  14. jrdobbs03

    jrdobbs03

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Western Washington
    I used a GSI colaspable bowl to get a quick measurement. It looks like there is about 2in of space between the hood and the top of the air cleaner. If any one can come up with a quick better method let me know. Also I may have found a 3FE in Oregon, if anyone is traveling from the Portland area up to Seattle it could save me allot of gas.
     
  15. Nay

    Nay SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,304
    Location:
    Colorado
    This thread makes me think of feeding a fat chick Cheetos so she can lose 50 lbs.
     
  16. RockDoc

    RockDoc my bad habit SILVER Star

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    6,205
    Location:
    SW MB, Ca
    Then stay out of it (and the fat chicks too). :flipoff2:
     
  17. alkaline747trio

    alkaline747trio

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,570
    Location:
    Albemarle NC
    The PS pump reservoir is the tallest part of the engine. The air cleaner wont even move with this mod. The intake/throttle body or the PS pump will be what interferes with the hood.
     
  18. jrdobbs03

    jrdobbs03

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Western Washington
    I'll take a look when I get home
     
  19. tonkota

    tonkota

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,123
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    My mileage has stayed the same, but my insanity has decreased. It is much more friendly to drive around town and on the highway.
     
  20. tonkota

    tonkota

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,123
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Whoa!!!! Now that is some retro thinking. The engine in the FZJ80 is miles ahead of any 2F-E combination (AL head, OHC, displacement etc) (except Matt's, he is nuts :D). I did my 2F-E for the reduction in cost and parts availability. It's more money to rebuild a 3F-E than a 2F and just easier to get the parts. The HP/torque was a positive benefit. And I can recommend upgrading the cam on anything you rebuild, that made just as much difference.
     

Share This Page