Neighbors house robbed - be careful - THEY STRIKE AGAIN! (aka: The Great Gun Thread)

[BELMONT148]

What do you guys think of Ranger Talon .45's? I can't find any HP or FMJ .45 ammo anywhere and I found a guy that has plenty of Rangers for $30. I figured I needed some defense rounds, I need to practice shooting, and need to make sure my HP's work well with my 1911. So I figured I would pick up a couple hundred rounds.

Any experience with this round?

Eventhough, I share alot of your same views. Was just stirring the pot. I love to see people get worked up over guns, I just didn't know you were going to spend all day writing a post about it.

Jeremy

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by BELMONT148

What do you guys think of Ranger Talon .45's? I can't find any HP or FMJ .45 ammo anywhere and I found a guy that has plenty of Rangers for $30. I figured I needed some defense rounds, I need to practice shooting, and need to make sure my HP's work well with my 1911. So I figured I would pick up a couple hundred rounds.

Any experience with this round?

Eventhough, I share alot of your same views. Was just stirring the pot. I love to see people get worked up over guns, I just didn't know you were going to spend all day writing a post about it.

Jeremy

I type fast - I pity the fool that types slow!

(Note the 's in my post - and the here!)

I need to check the Ranger HPs I have in my gun now and I'll let you know exactly what they are.

I don't worry as much about HPs in my Glock. I've never had any ammo related trouble with rounds feeding in my Glock but I have had plenty of trouble with HPs feeding in 45s. My Glock also isn't nearly as accurate as most 45's (1911).

I was thinking about the single stack Glock 45 but will probably have to use that money for a Keltec 380 for summer carry.

PS - working on a Cruiser hurts everytime you roll over your gun while you're on the ground!

[VTCruiser]

Originally Posted by eventhough

Come over anytime Gehn - just knock before you enter!

haha, just messin'. The state of VT doesn't require a permit to carry so I'm used to knowing that I could get shot at any moment...especially when the french Canadians get all hopped up on maple syrup...


...no offense to french Canadians!

[BELMONT148]

Does someone need to start "The Great Gun Thread"?

Jeremy

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by BELMONT148

Does someone need to start "The Great Gun Thread"?

Jeremy

I thought I already did!

[BELMONT148]

I missed the addition, when did you add it to the title?

Jeremy

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by BELMONT148

I missed the addition, when did you add it to the title?

Jeremy

I HAVE THE POWA!

Originally Posted by BELMONT148

Does someone need to start "The Great Gun Thread"?

Jeremy

Right after you said that.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by BELMONT148

Does someone need to start "The Great Gun Thread"?

Jeremy

That's a great idea. Get all the gun nuts in one place and lock the door.

Ain't no way I'm planning on changing any of you on gun control. I just like talking about it. Cause I think y'all are all nuts. Great friends but nuts. Life is too short to have to worry about getting robbed, run over, in a car accident, or shot from someone wrenching on his cruiser.

If someone breaks into my house and I don't hear him a lot of good a gun is going to do me. If My dog hears him then there is a good chance he won't be in the house long because if she doesn't scare him coming down the stairs the sound of a shot gun will. Best of all there was no training, no worrying, no planning, no special ammo.

[eventhough]

Marshall - do you think Jessie will scare an intruder off or show them to your china?

For someone who doesn't (usually) shot guns a bunch and is extremely familiar with an AR a shotgun is a much better tool for home defense - I believe even more so than a pistol. Especially if you have a shotgun with a pistol grip and not a stock. A pump with #4 or #6 will work 'wonders.' Add an extended capacity tube and you are really ready to rock.

Anyways, I think someone who might be best known on MUD for the "Big Gay 2F" is more troubled than someone who likes guns!

































- one more for effect!

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by eventhough

working on a Cruiser hurts everytime you roll over your gun while you're on the ground!

I'm quoting you on that one.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by eventhough

Marshall - do you think Jessie will scare an intruder off or show them to your china?

For someone who doesn't (usually) shot guns a bunch and is extremely familiar with an AR a shotgun is a much better tool for home defense - I believe even more so than a pistol. Especially if you have a shotgun with a pistol grip and not a stock. A pump with #4 or #6 will work 'wonders.' Add an extended capacity tube and you are really ready to rock.

Anyways, I think someone who might be best known on MUD for the "Big Gay 2F" is more troubled than someone who likes guns!

- one more for effect!

lol

It ain't the bite it's the bark. How about a good old Remington 1100 with buckshot? That way I can still use it for dove hunting. No extra capacity, no pistol grip just a shotgun.

When I was 17 I owned 10 guns. All shotguns and rifles. My father bought me my first shotgun when I was 7. I grew up hunting and until I was run over by a deer primative weapons hunting on GMA land down in McCormick county I'd probably still be hunting. But I didn't buy any of those guns with the intention of defending myself.

I painted Big Gay that color because I knew it would get people to laugh. Ain't nothing funny about gun ownership.

[BillWright]

It's not paranoid when there are people trying to get at you. I'm too old to fight and too slow/crippled up to run.

I've always had a gun around since I got a .22 when I was about 10 and a 16ga when I was about 13. BTW my dad never had one but he thought I should have the skills.
When I had kids in the house all I kept was an old 32 of grandaddy's and a 12ga skeet gun, both kept high and with ammo in another place. But I had dogs and a mean wife and a big house to play ring-around-the rosy in.
Now I live in the edge of cracktown with a TaeKwanDo room-mate whose brother is a Col in Special Forces. She believes in having the edge in any confrontation. Thus I've been able to endulge my natural inclination to armament.
Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Anyone who reads the paper can see that violent confrontations in this area have increased geometrically in the last few years. The tea leaves say there's no reason to think this will change in the immediate future.

OTOH I don't see trespassing, burglary, robbery, carjacking or b&e as capital offenses giving me the right to punish by death. My first weapon of defense/retaliation is a blackjack or loaded billy (depending on which vehicle). Second is a sharp blade. I would always prefer to defuse and disarm a situation before slinging lead.
But I will not be taken advantage of, and if I'm pulled on and I can manage I Will pull and fire. I take a presented weapon as an overt threat same as a cocked fist.

As I mentioned before I've had several threats over the years dissipated by my demonstrating that I was armed and ready to tangle. In those cases it was cold steel but now the opposition is often firearm enabled. I've faced down pistols twice, once in a carjacking, once on the street. Both times I avoided the play by cool thinking and fast action but I'm older and slower now.
Call me paranoid but I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm heeled.

b
Remember: When you need help in seconds the cops are only minutes away.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by BillWright

It's not paranoid when there are people trying to get at you. I'm too old to fight and too slow/crippled up to run.

I've always had a gun around since I got a .22 when I was about 10 and a 16ga when I was about 13. BTW my dad never had one but he thought I should have the skills.
When I had kids in the house all I kept was an old 32 of grandaddy's and a 12ga skeet gun, both kept high and with ammo in another place. But I had dogs and a mean wife and a big house to play ring-around-the rosy in.
Now I live in the edge of cracktown with a TaeKwanDo room-mate whose brother is a Col in Special Forces. She believes in having the edge in any confrontation. Thus I've been able to endulge my natural inclination to armament.
Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Anyone who reads the paper can see that violent confrontations in this area have increased geometrically in the last few years. The tea leaves say there's no reason to think this will change in the immediate future.

OTOH I don't see trespassing, burglary, robbery, carjacking or b&e as capital offenses giving me the right to punish by death. My first weapon of defense/retaliation is a blackjack or loaded billy (depending on which vehicle). Second is a sharp blade. I would always prefer to defuse and disarm a situation before slinging lead.
But I will not be taken advantage of, and if I'm pulled on and I can manage I Will pull and fire. I take a presented weapon as an overt threat same as a cocked fist.

As I mentioned before I've had several threats over the years dissipated by my demonstrating that I was armed and ready to tangle. In those cases it was cold steel but now the opposition is often firearm enabled. I've faced down pistols twice, once in a carjacking, once on the street. Both times I avoided the play by cool thinking and fast action but I'm older and slower now.
Call me paranoid but I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm heeled.

b
Remember: When you need help in seconds the cops are only minutes away.

Bill, great post.

[eventhough]

Troll - isn't the 1100 self loading? I would prefer a pump. Less to break, less to jam, greater chance to stay in the fight. You can still dove hunt with a pump. I've done it for 20 years. (damn, I feel old) Still though, a 1100 is better than nothing. I would run open choke for a bigger pattern. You aren't shooting any distance. The lack of a stock just gives you more maneuverability but not that much of a biggie if you are defending a bedroom until the police arrive. If someone breaks into my house at night and my wife (the only other person in the house) is in the bedroom then the robbers can have whatever they want in the house outside the bedroom- I'm not going after them. I'll call the police and wait for the cavalry to arrive. But, if the perps try to gain access to the bedroom then things go downhill very quick for them.

I also don't see trespassing, someone telling me to give them my wallet, etc and some other offenses as a blank check to use deadly force. Life is precious - and not "The Lord of the Rings" "Precious". I NEVER want to do that. If I have to I will stop a threat. If stopping a threat of "grave bodily harm" results in a death than that is a very sad situation, but one that occurred because someone else put themselves and you there. If someone pulls a knife, bat, iron pipe, 2x4, etc on me and I don't have an exit to run like Forrest and scream like a girl I will immediately draw my weapon and use it to stop the threat. Any of those other weapons are deadly. The Castle Doctrine is a good law, but I'll always try to retreat even if on my own property as long as retreating doesn't put me or my wife at more risk.

I do have two dogs. Jack (Jack Russell) would try to kill anyone who broke into the house but he wouldn't have much effect as he picked a fight with a cat this weekend and got his butt handed to him. Cruiser (lab/hound mix) would show the burglar to the silver, china, and then demand his belly be pet.

[BELMONT148]

I think a 20 Ga. 870 Youth is about the best home defense gun loaded with #3 buckshot. They only cost $175, are the most reliable shotgun on the planet, short enough to turnaround in a hall or doorway without raising the barrel, plus it won't go thru 800 sheets of drywall and 20 pellets the diam. of a pencil is plenty stopping power. Especially when you have 6-7 loaded.

I don't believe the hype about semi's being unreliable. I have never had my Browning Gold jam on me yet. Now if we were fighting in urban combat zones, dropping it in the sand, and shooting hundreds of rounds between cleanings I would understand. But that cocking does sound damn nice. But then again, my Browning auto loading a round sounds pretty intimedating as well.

Jeremy

[eventhough]

The problem I've seen first hand with autoloading shotguns is them failing to feed a round after a shot is fired due to a light load, poorly supported weapon, etc. I've never had my 870 jam - I love it.

[DanKunz]

Sounds like a nice rationalization through fear to justify the purchase of large firepower. That works for me.

Personally, I have two boys, I have a home, and if someone breaks in they will run before I have to do anything to them. If they stick around they better be packing because I will promise that what I can do to them in an angry rage with my bare hands and household items will pale in comparison to a shot to the chest...I won't call the cops for a while, it has to hurt enough to make them pay.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by DanKunz

Sounds like a nice rationalization through fear to justify the purchase of large firepower. That works for me.

Personally, I have two boys, I have a home, and if someone breaks in they will run before I have to do anything to them. If they stick around they better be packing because I will promise that what I can do to them in an angry rage with my bare hands and household items will pale in comparison to a shot to the chest...I won't call the cops for a while, it has to hurt enough to make them pay.

No fear here. I already have most of the guns I want.

I think most home intruders who are just looking to steal your stuff will run when confronted. Not all will. Sometimes an intruder (coward) will panic and shoot a homeowner when confronted even though this is not what they planned to do. "O shit, here comes a big mofo at me and he is piiiiiissed! BANG!" There isn't too long you'll be able to fight an intruder no matter your size if you have a bullet through your chest.

Dan, your situation is a bit different in that you would have to leave your bedroom to retrieve your boys. I just have to worry about the wife who is usually in the bedroom at night. I also don't have to worry as much about rounds penetrating walls.

Kids bring a whole new situation to hand. Some kids, as I was when I was young, just understood not to touch a gun unless my father was there. No matter how good your kids are some just don't understand this the same way. I don't fault you for not wanting to have a gun in their house b/c kids are present. That is a choice you can make. As soon as I have a relative or my own kid staying at the house my handgun will be locked up in one of those quick retrieval small keypad safes (or something similar) unless it is on my hip.

You could always throw a beagle at 'em!

Some UC members are or have been police officers. What say you about intruders carrying weapons?

[boombapslappy]

One way or another, you defend that which you create.

I have three guns in the house, none of which are on par with what's being described so far. I have no specific plan for protection of my loved ones and property. All I can say is that I've been scared once and I've thrown a rock at someone once.



It landed true.

[JMRINS]

Originally Posted by boombapslappy

One way or another, you defend that which you create.

I have three guns in the house, none of which are on par with what's being described so far. I have no specific plan for protection of my loved ones and property. All I can say is that I've been scared once and I've thrown a rock at someone once.



It landed true.

I agree w/ this. I have no TRUE plan either. I've been scared once @ night. We heard glass break in our home. I jumped out of bed and ran like a mad man through the house. I didn't even pause to grab the .357 by my bed, I just took off. Come to find out, a glass Christmas ornament fell off the tree and shattered on the hardwood floor. I was truly filled with a raged fear and would have probably beat someone to death if they didn't shoot me first. Pretty funny looking back on it now!

I'm on board with the fact that it would be a last resort for me to use my guns though. However, there have be 6 shootings in the last 2 days here in Anderson. That being said, I have an 11 mo. old and pregnant wife that I would do ANYTHING to defend. The second amendment gives me the right to bear arms so if I ever have to bear it, they'll wear it! Not sure what I would have done if I would have caught the SOB's that stole my FJ40....I'd probably driven through them w/ my F250! I would rather have destroyed it myself than someone take it from me.

[eventhough]

It is good to have a plan - even if it is simple. Same principle as having an escape plan in case of a fire.

JRMINS is a big guy - I wouldn't want to tangle with him. Back in my 'fightin' days' (in a gym) I sparred with some big dudes. Sometimes big guys would come in the gym and want to show they could fight. The ones that went biserk were usually the ones that were the easiest to beat. It was always fun to beat a 250 to 300 lb guy. On the other hand I've had some of my worst beatings from the smallest guys who kept a level head and were trained to fight.

It is a different story though when you are defending your family and running on adrenaline and not just "I'm big and bad and going to show that I can kick your ass." So that is on your side. You never know when that intruder (or Christmas ornament) is going to have a knife or gun waiting on you.

I'm lucky in that if I hear something in the house I don't have to clear the house since I only have to worry about my wife. My 'plan' if I had a youngin' would be to retrieve the youngin' while the wife calls the police, return to the master bed where the wife is, and stop anything that tries to enter the bedroom.

In your case the police would have had a good laugh at me if I called them for a broken Christmas ornament...but better safe than sorry.

What was the pro football player who recently went to investigate someone in his house and was shot dead?

[BMThiker]

Found this recently in my Inbox. Granted this pertains to a specific situation - a gun fight - not a home break-in, not a mugging, nor a car-jacking. But some interesting tactical info nonetheless.

Drill Sergeant Joe B. Frick’s Rules for a Gunfight

1. Forget about knives, bats and fists. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker and go to cover. Distance is your friend. (Bulletproof cover and diagonal or lateral movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. Yell "Fire!" Why "Fire"? Cops will come with the Fire Department, sirens often scare off the bad guys, or at least cause them to lose concentration and will.... and who is going to summon help if you yell "Intruder," "Glock" or "Winchester?"
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Stretch the rules. Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy."
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible, but remember sheetrock walls and the like stop nothing but your pulse when bullets tear through them.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. Practice reloading one-handed and off-hand shooting. That's how you live if hit in your "good" side.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. Smiles, frowns and other facial expressions don't (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)
19. Decide NOW to always be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you.
22. Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".
25. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." At a practice session, throw you gun into the mud, then make sure it still works. You can clean it later.
26. Practice shooting in the dark, with someone shouting at you, when out of breath, etc.
27. Regardless of whether justified of not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.
28. The only thing you EVER say afterwards is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."

Finally, Drill Sergeant Frick's Rules for Un-armed Combat

1. Never be unarmed.
2. If you have your hands, your feet, your mind and your Spirit as an American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine or Coastie, you are never unarmed.

[Trollhole]

Originally Posted by eventhough

The problem I've seen first hand with autoloading shotguns is them failing to feed a round after a shot is fired due to a light load, poorly supported weapon, etc. I've never had my 870 jam - I love it.

In the 25 years I have owned my 1100 it has never jammed. My pump Mosberg 12 jammed a heck of a lot more. But of course I treated the Mosberg like a tool and threw it around in the mud and let it get wet numerous times.

[scott johnson]

I know I push the odds because of my profession but..... I have had to defend myself with deadly force. I often tell people (usually while I'm training them) that the only thing that put him on the recieving end and not me was a split second and the grace of GOD. I credit the split second to years of training, professionaly and on my own. Going to the range regularly,staying current on tactics, and staying aware of my surroundings. The rest is self explanatory.

[eventhough]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

In the 25 years I have owned my 1100 it has never jammed. My pump Mosberg 12 jammed a heck of a lot more. But of course I treated the Mosberg like a tool and threw it around in the mud and let it get wet numerous times.

I've never owned a Mossburg but the one's I've shot I've almost always had problems with.

Some autoloaders have problems cycling low recoil rounds. Also, in a panic situation if you don't have your shotgun seated well in your shoulder (think shooting from the hip) they can jam for the same reason as with the low recoil rounds. I've been able to make this happen on the range as a demonstration. If you (Marshall) have never had problems then go with it. Being comfortable and confident with your weapon goes a LONG way!

Also - I defer to anything Scott says.

[BillWright]

Pumps can stovepipe too. Full, steady, firm cycling is a must. Practice, practice, practice. Then go out and practice.

Re Sgt Frick's rules: Rule #23 trumps everything. Rule #24 is the reason that I have several guns now relegated to backup. Actually I had already made that decision after reading the following: Terminal Ballistics As Viewed In A Morgue. Google it. If you're arming yourself for self or home defense read, mark study and inwardly digest this post. I learned more here than hours on gun forums. Kinda lengthy but worth your time.

Just saying.
b

[pillguy]

Guys,

Have enjoyed reading the thread about guns and alarm systems, one question I have is what type of ammo do I need.
I have a colt 45 (like westerns) and a 45 colt automatic (like ones in WWII)..... so what ammo type do I need? I think for the Colt 45 auto is .45 APC. Is this correct? and what type do I need for the other.

Thanks,

[BELMONT148]

Pillguy,

If I had a .45 Long Colt revolver I would load it with some of the new Grizzly ammo. They make a nice 260 grain +P load that is very close to a .44 Magnum. Would make a nice sidearm for taking down wild boar and bears.

I do have a .45 ACP 1911 and I shoot regular FMJ ammo at the range. I would only use a hollow point that reliably feeds in your particular gun everytime. If you have a picky 1911, like a lot of people do I would look at the Cor Bon and Remington Golden Saber's as they are really close to FMJ ammo but are a very effective hollow point.

Jeremy

[Gundy]

If you break into my house it will be your last criminal act.
Living out in the boonies like I do I use a hand gun round that
ain't gonna stop at the door or wall for that matter. I'm talking
spray the area. As a former prosecutor I've seen first hand
what some sickos can do and I don't want to be a victim.
With no child in our home the self defense guns stay locked and loaded.
I thank God I've never had to fire a round in self defense.
I once had to show a nut who came to our home the nickle plated 45
to get him to leave. He was picked up a short distance from my house by
the police. Drunk out of his mind. He didn't know me but was just drunk
and full of rage demanding to enter my house while waiving a big old
Max Lite flashlight. Mumbling and swearing the whole time. Even seeing/hearing
my 100 lb dog didn't faze him. The shiny gun didn't stop him from banging
that flashlight on my door. The racking of a round in his face in the door
window did the trick. Something about seeing a round ejected and a new one sliding
in connected with his dull brain I guess.

[pillguy]

Great, that is helpful, one question though, what is the "+p" denote in ammo?

Originally Posted by BELMONT148

Pillguy,

If I had a .45 Long Colt revolver I would load it with some of the new Grizzly ammo. They make a nice 260 grain +P load that is very close to a .44 Magnum. Would make a nice sidearm for taking down wild boar and bears.

I do have a .45 ACP 1911 and I shoot regular FMJ ammo at the range. I would only use a hollow point that reliably feeds in your particular gun everytime. If you have a picky 1911, like a lot of people do I would look at the Cor Bon and Remington Golden Saber's as they are really close to FMJ ammo but are a very effective hollow point.

Jeremy