Probably dumb timing questions, FZJ80 (1 Viewer)

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Luke84

Luke84

Joined
Jul 16, 2014
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Location
Athens, GA
I replaced my Distributor O-Ring last night, and it took a few tries to get it right (I hadn't timed a car in forever, and I put the ditributor in very retarded, and then too advanced. I finally made it sound right).

Anyways, while I was at it, I went ahead and did the paper clip trick.

1) Just because it was not expressly written, I wanted to make sure- do I leave the paper clip in? I never saw the check engine light flash, and I think my engine was warmed up too much to see differences after shorting the connections- It did drive noticeably better once I test drove it though.

2) Being rusty on all things engine related, I wanted to ask about a few observations, which brought more questions.
-I have ~260,000 miles on this motor, and I can't remember if it's been rebuilt yet. so:

A) My scanguage today showed advance at a few points of 23º -that seems really far; is that ok? Most numbers I've seen were below 15º, and even more <10º.

B) I'm 30, and have worked on cars since I could drive, but not very often. I still can't identify pinging/knocking very well. I timed the LC last night and based on the "Paper Clip Hack" guides/forum posts, I would up setting the distributor at about 7º (using a timing light), in park, on a fairly warm engine. The truck feels fine driving it, and seems to be driving better, but rereading a little more today, I got worried about pinging knocking.

-I've always thought this LC had a little bit of a loose valvetrain- I can hear a rattle every so often when I decelerate. Is there any "easy" way to differentially diagnose this? I don't want to have my timing too far advanced and jack everything up, but this car is my daily driver and I don't have much time this week to pull valve covers, etc. Any thoughts on if this sound is pinging/knocking or just rattling valves?


Thanks, and I can provide more data as the day goes on if I haven't posted enough. Just not sure what all to look/listen for.
 
How To: Adjust or Advance Timing

Scangauge will show the electronically advanced timing. That means it will fluctuate drastically when accelerating/decelerating. I've seen as high as 35* & as low as 3* (with timing properly set @ 3*)
 
LFD2037 said:
How To: Adjust or Advance Timing

Scangauge will show the electronically advanced timing. That means it will fluctuate drastically when accelerating/decelerating. I've seen as high as 35* & as low as 3* (with timing properly set @ 3*)
Click to expand...


I mainly wanted to make sure that ~35° was within normal range- kinda seemed like a lot.

Like I said, it appears to be timed correctly, but the 'valve rattling' sound has me nervous. It's not a new sound, but it has me thinking its been out of time since I bought it a year ago.

For the record, the rattling occurs across ~1000rpm-2000, and typically when I'm barely pushing on the gas, so I assume it's just slack in the valves- it doesn't change tone or anything as timing changes (per scanguage), is it safe to assume that's valve slack, NOT detonation/knocking/pinging?
 
I have my timing set @3* & I get a similar rattling sound in about the same RPM when it's hot outside. Mine's been like this for almost 2 years. I've done everything I can to fix it, w/out removing head, so I'm not a good candidate to advise you on it. If you run a couple tanks of premium, does it go away? If I do then mine goes ~90% away.
 
You said in the initial post that the "Pinging" was when you decelerate.... In the above post you state "and typically when I'm barely pushing on the gas"...

Which is it?

If its the latter that's a prime spot for detonation. Easiest thing to do would be run some premium and see if it occurs at the same spot RPM in about the same conditions.
 
If your "rattling" goes away with premium then its knock. If you advanced your timing and it starts to rattle, then I'd pull back a degree or two until it stops.

Many guys here have had good luck advancing their timing so I'll let them chime in. I'm not a proponent of it unless you can be sure its not causing knock. Remember some detonation you won't hear unless you are running ears on it.

And, as I've said before,,, 2 things kill motors.... Knock and High RPM's...

Pulling passes at 5K and wondering if you have detonation because you advanced your timing to get a few hp out of it is a recipe for disaster. Thats just my .02


Good luck...

J
 
Ok I have better information:
I was wrong about the rattling on deceleration- that is not occuring.
It is rattling betwwen ~1200-2000 RPM, and I watched the timing on my scangauge, and it did not affect the rattling one way or the other. Based on another thread here, I checked it against the Throttle Position Sensor gauge; the noise stopped at or above 20-21%, and at or below ~10%.

Based on other threads, I am guessing it may be detonation from using cheaper fuel, dirty valves (leading to hot spots?). Any ideas where or if timing plays into this?

My plan is to run some Seafoam (I use Berryman) through the intake, and through the tank and see if that helps, and then run a tiny bit in the crankcase immediately prior to an oil change.

Lastly, for now- With the paper clip hack, do I leave the paper clip there (i.e. full time)? I never figured that part out!

Oh and Boltripper- I have never redlined it in the 15 months I've owned it, and I've maybe once or twice pushed it over 4k.
 
Your remove the paperclip after you set the timing (and I prefer after I turn the key off). It does NOT stay installed.
 
LFD2037 said:
Your remove the paperclip after you set the timing (and I prefer after I turn the key off). It does NOT stay installed.
Click to expand...
THIS. The paperclip thingie puts the ECU into diagnostic mode so you can check/adjust the timing. Removing it returns it to actual running mode.

There was a discussion on this subject last week or something and I have a question: Neutral or Park when checking the timing?
 
I see no reason why it'd matter if in park or neutral though I think I read somewhere awhile back it was supposed to be in neutral.
 
After posting, I reread the instructions and it did say to remove it. Oops.

So I tried again, and followed the instructions correctly, but the Check Engine Light didn't flash (it said some, but not all, would do that). I checked the timing before= 10º, and with the clip in = 7-8º. Is that ok? The instructions said it should drop to 3º. I looked at the scangauge and it said 3º (and stayed there), but the light indicated otherwise.

Regardless, I dropped the timing a degree or two, and tightened it up. I drove it and it still felt a little more peppy than before, but it also still 'rattled.'

I then ran some Berryman through the intake using my "IV Drip" I made, and let it sit for a few minutes. I test drove it up the highway and got it to 70mph for a few miles, with the Overdrive off. It felt a little more responsive still. On coming back home, I did notice there was significantly less rattling noise. Again, it was only in between 1200-2000 rpm, and between 10 and 20% throttle, but I could only hear it a few times. I had also poured a can of Berryman into the tank (3/4 full) right before driving it.

So I think I have established that it is indeed pinging- Does that sound right? I know higher octane fuel should reduce the pinging, as will a tune up (soon!). Am I missing anything else? Would the Berryman added to the tank bump up the octane a little? (I couldn't find any evidence one way or the other online).
 
FWIW, mine doesn't flash either.
 
Hmm.. Ove always done timing on yotas in park, with 0 ill affects. I have my 4runner set at 15° btdc, which is a bit on the high side. It pings a lil at 1500rpm, but goes away shortly after. Been that way for 10 years, and well over 100k miles....

A lil ping is ok, but def gotta be "careful"
 
team420 said:
Hmm.. Ove always done timing on yotas in park, with 0 ill affects. I have my 4runner set at 15° btdc, which is a bit on the high side. It pings a lil at 1500rpm, but goes away shortly after. Been that way for 10 years, and well over 100k miles....

A lil ping is ok, but def gotta be "careful"
Click to expand...


With all due respect, I disagree. Any per-detonation is not ok, even a little. If you have it and can't get rid of it even with a proper tune up, then I guess you might have to live with it, but if the truck is mechanically as it should be you won't have it. Trusting the knock sensor is just that.. Trusting...

If you advanced your timing to get more "pep" and have some, is the perceived seat of the pants performance increase worth possible ring or piston damage? I don't know. Just because someone runs it for 10 years and 100K does not mean the next guy will have the same luck.

Also wouldn't want any pre-det in #6......;)

Anyway - All good posts here and sharing of information... Just be cautious and remember that some knock you won't hear.

Enjoy all.. :cheers:
 
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