Running without battery on an 80 series 1HD-T (1 Viewer)

[itchy355]

Just thinking out loud, so sorry for weird ideas.

IF I had modified the fuel cut off solenoid on a 1HD-T engine to use a manual push/pull cable instead of electricity to keep it open, would the car be able to run (once started of course) without a battery?

I imagine the car keys would just act as a means to crank the starter then.

This is all just a mind game after reading someone's Kongo expedition with a 70 series, who at one point mentioned taking the battery out (to start some dead old diesel river crossing ferry), being still able to push start the thing. Would be a nice warm feeling to know that the truck will drive me home as long as it's mechanically OK, regardless of the whole electric system.

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: why?

If you are concerned about the fuel cutoff solenoid failing (and leaving you stranded) I have a much simpler solution: carry a spare solenoid. It's so small you will probably lose it in the glovebox.

If you are concerned also about the electrical system failing, carry a spare fuel cutoff solenoid, and a wicked small 12V ATV battery. If everything goes to pot, run a wire directly from the ATV battery to the fuel cutoff solenoid--bypassing the entirety of the rest of the wiring harness. Heck, it will probably run off of a simple 9V battery, I'd guess for a day or so.

And push starting a diesel? I've done it. It was difficult to say the least. The diesel engine has so much compression that there's virtually no chance of doing it in 2WD (you'll just skid the tires), and even in 4WD it's a serious bear. I highly doubt it would work on anything other than pavement, concrete, or slickrock. On a dirt road or river bank I'd wager you'll just end up skidding all 4 tires, rather than turning the engine over to start.

Dan

 

[Squash]

Use 3rd gear.
Simply stated:
1st will hold on a hill pretty well
2nd will slowly move as compresion diminishes in cylinders
3rd will start to walk on its own
4th...
5th..............

Even our underground units which are locked in Low will start quite easily.

Try out a few senarios and judge for yourself.

 

[lostmarbles]

Remember than running an alternator without a battery connected can destroy the rectifier diodes in your alternator (not to mention damage other electrical equipment on board your vehicle)



But having said that, me and a mate did get away with it when we had to jump start and old 1956 Hillman car we had parked near Ruatahuna (while deer hunting in Te Urewera National Park) many years ago after we got out only to find it ransacked and the battery stolen (and all the not-worth-stealing contents thrown along the roadside).

 

[Lasse]

You could make a small capacitor bank capable of 30v or 16v (24v or 12v system).
Doesn't need to be big, just so the alternator are sensing some kind of "battery" feedback. Then you won't damage anything I believe.
Or you could build a big capacitor bank. My 2H fires straight up without glow in the cold with my capacitor "battery". Never seen my starter cranked any faster. It will even turn strongly over at only 16v at the capacitors.

 

[lostmarbles]

... My 2H fires straight up without glow in the cold with my capacitor "battery". Never seen my starter cranked any faster. It will even turn strongly over at only 16v at the capacitors.

Any photos of your capacitor-bank that you're using instead of a battery?

 

[rustybucket]

Lasse, like to know. Super capacitors?

 

[itchy355]

Thanks for the reply.

As to ,,why'' .. just for the fun of it, I like cables, I don't like electric things..

Next job will be cable driven lockers (the electric ones are broken anyway).

Then, if I get crazy enough, this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNijql5V7s4

or this

www.youtube.com/watch?v=An0PnUawiHY

Just for the sake of it

 

[lostmarbles]

Very interesting Itchy...

Despite watching the video of it's construction, I can't understand how that inertia starter could possibly store sufficient energy to start an engine.

And the whirring sound that occurs when the car is being started seems totally inconsistant with any sound such a device (of that design) could make.

I think I'd have to see this thing in person to be convinced it isn't a scam.

Searching on Strumco ... I see a company making air starters but not inertia starters.





Edit: I'm triple-posting beer handles.... (ih8mud must still be playing up. I had thought Woody had fixed this problem.)

 

[BEE-JAY42]

Sometimes I feel like this place is running without a battery.

 

[Lasse]

Sorry no pictures as I am on holiday, but I have a Maxwell 48v 165F capacitor bank consisting of 18 3000F 2.7v capacitors. Right now I just use it to jump start the truck now and then with the battery disconnected. Going to install it in the truck some day configured to 30v 280F for cranking and letting the battery take care of glowing, not damaging the engine from to many cold starts. Isolating it so that I always have cranking power available. Tested it last winter stored out in close to -30℃ for over a month. Only dropped 0.5v in that time and still had thousands of amp available at top voltage at that low temperature. I love that capacitors aren't affected by extreme temperatures a bit

 

[Lasse]

Not planing to replace the batterys entirely as they empty pretty quickly glowing etc.
Want to have music, lights and auxiliary available with the truck off for camping and so forth.

 

[HJ61 12HT]

Ive bump started my 12ht several times on low traction surfaces (gravel, grass and sand) without a problem.
Direct injection engines start so easily, im not sure you could do the same with a cold glow plug engine?
I would disconnect the alternator belt if I was thinking of running without a battery...

 

[mudgudgeon]

Use 3rd gear.
Simply stated:
1st will hold on a hill pretty well
2nd will slowly move as compresion diminishes in cylinders
3rd will start to walk on its own
4th...
5th..............

Even our underground units which are locked in Low will start quite easily.

Try out a few senarios and judge for yourself.

I've push started several diesels over the years. 4th gear will start it at not much above walking speed

 

[itchy355]

Despite watching the video of it's construction, I can't understand how that inertia starter could possibly store sufficient energy to start an engine.

Should be very possible as it's been used to start tanks in WWII

https:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnb5ouBjNc

 

[lostmarbles]

Should be very possible as it's been used to start tanks in WWII

https:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnb5ouBjNc

Thanks Itchy.

That tank video is credible to me. (Shame about the driver's lack of gear-changing skills though. LOL)

I envisage a heavy flywheel inside the tank getting cranked up to speed and then some sort of special clutch getting engaged to smoothly transfer the flywheel's momentum to the engine's crankshaft (thus turning the flywheel into a starter).

But I think I'm supposed to believe in the earlier Citroen video that the little device the man is holding stores the cranking energy (using some sort of spring/thread/ballbearing arangement instead of a heavy flywheel).

While the device does look to be nicely machined, unfortunately I can't believe it is capable of storing sufficient energy.

Or did I get the wrong end of the stick in the Citroen video? (In other words, I thought the Citroen video was supposed to be some sort of "sophisticated spring starter" rather than a true "inertia/momentum starter" as per the tank video.)



Edit: Just searched a bit on spring-starters.. They do exist but they appear to me to be rather pathetic in operation (being barely able to turn an engine over one compression ... exactly as I would expect) as shown here:


And here is someone supposedly starting a car using the energy stored in "a small pack of capacitors":


Assuming this is genuine (and I think it is) .... I still can't see the point because those capacitors must surely lose electrical energy over time and whereas a battery can store "amp-hours" worth of energy a capacitor bank can only store "amp-seconds".

So I'm hardly likely to wander down a lonely dirt track in mid-winter, spend the night there, and then expect a capacitor pack to supply my starter with sufficient juice for a reliable restart in the morning (even ignoring the fact that I'd drain the capacitors dry before completing my 20 second preheating cycle).

It is certainly interesting to ponder these ideas though... And I can see how it would be tempting to experiment with them to have "something different"...

 

[itchy355]

Well inertia energy is a complicated thing; you can have big heavy + rather low RPM OR lighter and smaller + very high RPM to store the same amount of energy. Just look at the flywheels some F1 cars use (used?) to store braking energy to get a bit of extra power. Search KERS -- the flywheel itself weights 0.5 Kg, is some 9" in diameter and revs up to 60,000 RPM -- then, for some 6 seconds, adding 80 extra HP!

Now of course that is entirely different engineering level, but since you only need a fraction of that power, I say it's possible. Gear up from the crank to the flywheel, gear back down from the flywheel to the engine, machine everything as smooth and precise as possible keeping all the weight/speed ratio in the correct ballpark..well. It's a crazy project

Spring starters of course are nicer (compact, light, ..), but I see them as more complicated to make by my hands; you can buy them but they cost a small fortune.

Also I've been thinking about some small two stroke engine (from a dead cahinsaw or something) used as a starter. Correct gearing and a very simple clutch might do the trick too..

So many possibilities.. just love it