3B Rebuild and Performance Notes (1 Viewer)

[Dougal]

I have a td04l 13t on my 3b and was wandering if something like a vf34 or td05 16g may provide little more topend power? will these be alot more laggy?

i have seen that you can get a 19t compressor housing upgrades and want to know what a bigger compressor wheel achieves? If i keep the exhaust turbine the same size wont this just be my limiting factor even with the bigger compressor housing?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Turbo-Co..._Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f32c48899&_uhb=1

Thanks!

A TD05 will kill off all your low end boost. The TD04HL turbine is the next step bigger than your current. A bigger OD compressor wheel has higher tip speed to produce more boost at lower rpm. The 19T is overkill for a 3B but it is an efficient wheel with a good surge margin so it will still work well.

Top end power lacking is I'm afraid more about the 3B than the turbo.
A TD04HL-19T on a 4BD1T should be able to hit ~180kw at ~3200rpm (30psi). The HE221 is the next step above the 19T and is closely related. It should be able to break 200kw by 4000rpm.

 

[yotahed]

I found a T04HL( 15T i think) in the core room at work in real good shape. Saab turbo. Its getting a rebuild (possibly a different center section without water cooling if they can be had), KTS billet 16G wheel and probably some porting at the exhaust inlet.

I agree with Dougal on the 3B high end power. There is HP up high, but no torque. My torque diminishes by around 2800, and I rarely rev it past 3200. Im looking for quick spool down low (1200-1700) and hold around 13-18psi all the way up to 3200. I could care less if I run out of puff up high.

 

[Itwillmakeit?]

i just found this thread today and cant believe i didnt find it earlier, anyhow i turboed my 3b a year ago and have been messing with it ever since. i have rigged a cable that i can pull back the max fuel spring whenever i feel like it, its actually a spare hood release cable. also i have experimented with the idle stop capsule and the diaphgram shims, more shims more fuel across the board higher egts at cruse. found that at higher fuel settings i was running into the speed governer at 3000 rpm, 10psi boost 2k rpm and 17 psi at 3500 this turbo isnt exactly matched for this engine but it works for me, personally i think the compressor is too big, who knows. also did a dyno at bd diesel last year and pulled 106hp (non intercooled 10psi) at the wheels lol, there was lots of laughter from the other guys with 500hp trucks but oh well

sorry for the rant, never done this before

im running a gt2560r, intercooler, 3" exhaust, 5spd

 

[yotahed]

sorry for the rant, never done this before

im running a gt2560r, intercooler, 3" exhaust, 5spd

No apologies needed.
Always good to hear about others experience.

For your turbo, you could try to find a smaller comp wheel and housing thatll fit yours and it'll be loads better. it does sound a bit oversized by your post. that said 105HP at the wheels is nothing to shrug off on a 3B. Thats about 30% increase over stock.
I have a chinese T3 turbo and swapped the comp housing and wheel yesterday to a genuine Garrett AiResearch housing and wheel that was near identical in size. Fit up perfectly. Night and day difference in spool up time and mid range power. also gained around 3 psi on the top end. Very impressed. Took it off an old core turbo at work. My comp wheel was chipped and it gave me a reason to frankenstein it.

My 13BT pump arrived today. 8) In suprisingly good shape. Not a lick of corrosion inside from what i can tell. I have the parts from japan to covert it to manual trans spec from auto as well, so I'll be taking pics as I delve into it. It'll basically get cleaned up, reworked, tested/calibrated and Im tossing it on the motor. Injector pop will be increased around 200psi to compensate for the higher cam duration of direct injection. might have to go more, we'll see.

cheers for now

 

[Itwillmakeit?]

i thought that you would have to get the cartridge rebalanced if you changed the compressor wheel on a ball bearing turbo, maybe you can get by without it idk?

on a side note has anybody tried to check their timing the way the manual says with the test pipe? it seems as though my timing is 0 degrees btdc (at Tdc) if the marks on the pump are lined up. im going to try and see if i can check the timing on #4 and see if it is the same, i believe you just rotate the crank 360* and put the test pipe on the 4th delevery valve, any thoughts on this? to set my timing at 4* btdc i have to advance the pump at least 1/8 of an inch from the factory mark, worn pump? or could someone screwed up on the timing gears and put it out a tooth?

my goal is to try to beat 150hp at the wheels, even if its just for a dyno run, at least i could beat something at the dyno on may 24,

here is my best dyno so far the torque value is measured at the dyno so the calculated engine torque they say is 248 ft lb (btw bd diesel does dyno days where its free to run your diesel, its mostly all domestics but they wont turn you away if you have a rwd diesel truck to run.)


thanks for the input

Nick

 

[yotahed]

For the spill (pipe) timing, you set the crank just before the timing mark on the pulley. There are 3 I believe... I think its one of the two that are close to one another, the left most one. Its in the manual.
you need to install a plug on the return fitting, and feed the pump with pressurized fuel. Be ready for spewing diesel. Place a container under whatever cyl you are timing.

As you rotate the crank, you'll see fuel spit out the pipe. SLOWLY rotate until the spill turns to a slow drip (once every second.) This is called "start of injection", and is where the plunger takes on no more fuel and begins to pressurize the barrel, lifting the delivery valve, and applying pressure to the injector.
Since your pump rotates at half engine speed, each cylinder will be 180* rotation on the crank. When you set/time your first cylinder, make a THIN mark with something easy to see on the crank where the slow drip just starts In relation to the little pin that sticks out..(if the factory mark doesn't line up) Make a 2nd mark directly 180* from it on the crank pulley. These are your two temporary timing marks now. You need to be very precise with the marks so take your time to make sure they are centered from one another.
Rotate the crank to just before the second mark you made and slowly creep up to it until you see the drip just begin again. If it lines up with your mark, cool! Do the same for the remaining two cylinders.
If in case you get a discrepancy in an advanced or retarded cylinder, chances are the prestroke is set wrong(worn shim,loose parts). Recheck each one several times to get a good reading on things. You are allowed no more than 1 degree of advance or retard of injection events (try to be less than 0.5 degrees)in relation to each other. So before you go cursing because its off by a hair, re-check your marks and do it again. Pumps rarely go out of time in terms of the start of injection, but it can happen, so be sure before you say its fooked.

Now you know where you're at. You can now loosen off the pump and rotate, so that your first start of injection at #1 happens at the factory mark, rotate pump toward engine for advance and away for retard of injection.

How much advance you set the initial timing at will get compounded at higher rpm, so I wouldnt go too nuts with it. If it sounds quite clacky at idle, imagine what it'll be like at 3000rpm.
I run mine at the factory mark and have been happy enough with the power... For now.

Cheers.

 

[Itwillmakeit?]

For the spill (pipe) timing, you set the crank just before the timing mark on the pulley. There are 3 I believe... I think its one of the two that are close to one another, the left most one. Its in the manual.
you need to install a plug on the return fitting, and feed the pump with pressurized fuel. Be ready for spewing diesel. Place a container under whatever cyl you are timing.

As you rotate the crank, you'll see fuel spit out the pipe. SLOWLY rotate until the spill turns to a slow drip (once every second.) This is called "start of injection", and is where the plunger takes on no more fuel and begins to pressurize the barrel, lifting the delivery valve, and applying pressure to the injector.
Since your pump rotates at half engine speed, each cylinder will be 180* rotation on the crank. When you set/time your first cylinder, make a THIN mark with something easy to see on the crank where the slow drip just starts In relation to the little pin that sticks out..(if the factory mark doesn't line up) Make a 2nd mark directly 180* from it on the crank pulley. These are your two temporary timing marks now. You need to be very precise with the marks so take your time to make sure they are centered from one another.
Rotate the crank to just before the second mark you made and slowly creep up to it until you see the drip just begin again. If it lines up with your mark, cool! Do the same for the remaining two cylinders.
If in case you get a discrepancy in an advanced or retarded cylinder, chances are the prestroke is set wrong(worn shim,loose parts). Recheck each one several times to get a good reading on things. You are allowed no more than 1 degree of advance or retard of injection events (try to be less than 0.5 degrees)in relation to each other. So before you go cursing because its off by a hair, re-check your marks and do it again. Pumps rarely go out of time in terms of the start of injection, but it can happen, so be sure before you say its fooked.

what your saying makes sense and is one of the ways i have heard to time these engines, i was going by the manual which seems different, these are the pages


see if this makes sense to you

 

[yotahed]

yea thats the method with a straight pipe, and no pressure and is quite inaccurate. drip timing with the pump pressured up is much more reliable, and accurate to 0.5 degrees and better. you need a test pipe with a upside down "J" shape.
You follow the same basic procedure, but you wont have to eyeball the pipe to see if fuel is starting to come out. you just have watch for when the fuel stream turns to a drip. This is how we set up inline pumps on the bench, and you dont need to be so exact with the length of the test pipe. You can actually use the injection lines on the motor. Just remove from the injector side and place a clear cup under so you can see the stream/drip.

You can feed the pump with a small inline electric fuel pump. Bleed the air from the bleeder/outlet, and install a plug. rig up a little switch to turn the pump on/off when you need it. once you get set up, its a much better way of doing things, and you can set/change your timing with ease.

 

[Itwillmakeit?]

Ok cool that make total sense now, does the electric pump have to put out a lot of pressure to lift the delivery valve? Or just 5-7psi?

the plug your talking about is for the return line, and the bleeder is the screw under the #4 delivery valve on the side of the pump, is this right?


I have a spare injection pump that I can use to get the method figured out.

Thanks for the info!

Nick

 

[yotahed]

Yea sorry, i was thinking 13BT pump. The bleeder is essentially a plug (below #4, correct), so just bleed any air out after hooking up your electric feed pump. I wouldnt suggest feeding through the lift pump and filter to the injection pump, the excess pressure may burst the seals, so you dont need to worry about the injector leakage return pipe. Make yourself a dedicated test line straight to the pump body fuel inlet at the front. primcess auto should have banjo fittings with a hose barb to make it simple. Feed pressure should be anywhere from 7-20psi for a good flow of fuel. "phasing pressure" can be anywhere from 20 to 350psi on the cummins inlines so youll be safe at lower feed pressures. Just shut off the pump when your fiddling with fittings and lines.

Yea test it out on your spare and get a good handle on it. easier to learn with the pump out and you can see everything happening.

cheers

 

[Itwillmakeit?]

ok so i tried it out on my spare pump and found out that i had to remove the delivery valve spring, the electric pump i bought is only 5 psi so i assume the delivery valve wont budge at that, but once removed it acts exactly as you explained it. fuel flows until you get to the start of injection and then stops, turn it some more and it starts up again. and the rack position plays a role as to how many degrees the flow stops for.

 

[slowandsteady BJ]

i thought that you would have to get the cartridge rebalanced if you changed the compressor wheel on a ball bearing turbo, maybe you can get by without it idk?

on a side note has anybody tried to check their timing the way the manual says with the test pipe? it seems as though my timing is 0 degrees btdc (at Tdc) if the marks on the pump are lined up. im going to try and see if i can check the timing on #4 and see if it is the same, i believe you just rotate the crank 360* and put the test pipe on the 4th delevery valve, any thoughts on this? to set my timing at 4* btdc i have to advance the pump at least 1/8 of an inch from the factory mark, worn pump? or could someone screwed up on the timing gears and put it out a tooth?

my goal is to try to beat 150hp at the wheels, even if its just for a dyno run, at least i could beat something at the dyno on may 24,View attachment 889059
here is my best dyno so far the torque value is measured at the dyno so the calculated engine torque they say is 248 ft lb (btw bd diesel does dyno days where its free to run your diesel, its mostly all domestics but they wont turn you away if you have a rwd diesel truck to run.)


thanks for the input

Nick

Nick, Good for you for pulling onto a dyno surrounded by monster domestic diesels chasing the 4 figure numbers! I always wanted to dyno my little fire breathing "B"!

Yotahead, I'd love to see some figures on your setup. Any dyno days in Kewlona?

 

[yotahed]

Sorry Nick!, I was just thinking about that today. Yes the D valve spring must be removed or you'd need over 300 psi to crack it. So with no spring your little pump will work perfect. I'm sure you're not into working with that high of pressure anyhow. 8). Your basically performing "phasing" of your cylinders along with your pump timing.
As for the rack position, yes again, it must be set at at certain travel to obtain proper readings. Its in the manual as well, I'll post it up if you can't find it. You can access the rack through the plug at the front of the pump next to the fuel inlet. Usually, at rest, the rack is at full forward travel(max fuel). So you can measure by pulling the stop/fuel arm to "stop" position, and then measuring the travel from there forward with a caliper or dial guage. In the "stop" position the rack travel is zero.

Glad to help.

No dyno days here that I'm aware, but we might hit BD this year and I'll giver a go no doubt. Also a small dyno here in town, but I haven't got time lately.

 

[yotahed]

So, as the initial subject of this thread, It turns out that the 3BII does indeed have a roller cam. same as 14B.
To change over, the block must be a 5 bearing, and machining may be needed to fit the lifters, but Im not positive on that yet.
Parts for possible swap:
Camshaft: 13511-56060
Lifters: 13750-58010
Pushrods: 13781-56020
Rocker Int: 13811-56050
Rocker Exh: 13812-56040
Rocker Shaft: 13901-56030
Front shaft support #1: 13951-56030
Rear shaft support #5: 13953-56030
Shaft support #2,3,4: 13952-56030
Support bolt #1: 90105-08177 (x5)
Support bolt #2: 90105-08165 (x5)
Valve spring inner: 90501-33012 (x4)
valve spring outer: 90501-08165(x4)
Adjuster screw: 90913-05022
Stem seal: 90913-02076 (x8)
Valve stem Cap: 13716-56010
Spring seat: 13734-56040
Retainer Lock: 90913-03024

So a few parts are different, any other peices are the same as 3B, 13BT.
Be nice if a core engine could be looked at and measurements taken to confirm the similarities and differences. It may be possible to use the earlier rockers and upper valve train and simply swap the cam, pushrods and lifters, but again, will have to be confirmed.

 

[magnus_heydoc]

that MB IP spring mod. works just dandy. The throttle response in the mid rpms is amazing. I got a spring from the dealer for under 5 bucks. It's a no brainer.

 

[yotahed]

Yea its a good mod. And for 5-10 bucks. Cant go wrong.

 

[magnus_heydoc]

If you think about what's happening with a larger spring it actually should be changed whenever you turbo a 3B. It counters a vacuum differential set up now pressurized. I wish I could take credit for thinking of it. Some one must have pulled apart an old turbo MB and compared springs.
I just got back from a 1300km trip and got 12L/100kms at 70mph. Worked well.

 

[ToyRoverlander]

This mod is high on my to-do list now, adjusting the governor too! Next to a new clutch, replacing my gearbox and some other things

 

[yotahed]

The spring is actually from a non turbo 240D. Which is weird. Ive no idea what the impact on a non turbo 3B would be... Probably excessive midrange fuel.
It was only used in the very early cars. I was looking at an old Bosch MB pump in the shop and the diaphragm rear housing is a fair bit longer than the inline Denso unit.

Anyone looking for a 3B pump? Mine will be up for sale when the 13BT pump goes on. It can be hi-flowed/rebuilt/calibrated on request for a reasonable price. It will be missing the driven gear nose at the front. Otherwise complete.

 

[magnus_heydoc]

That's a good pump to have as a spare and for tinkering/learning. I have 4 so I'm good but someone should definitely buy it.

I bought 3 of those springs.