- Thread starter
- #21
To tell you the truth, I have never really checked what the hose looks like while it's running on the auxiliary. Will do that tomorrow and let you know...
94 HDJ-80 fuel delivery problem (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter hskasimir
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Squash
SILVER Star
put a section of hose on the intake side of your primer, if clear your primer is the problem if bubbles show up the problem is towards tank.
You can also bypass the primer with clear hose to further trouble shoot.
You need to get rid of air, any leak will suck air no matter how good things look.
You can also bypass the primer with clear hose to further trouble shoot.
You need to get rid of air, any leak will suck air no matter how good things look.
- Thread starter
- #23
Well, today I drove down into town on the main tank. It's about a 6km drive, lots of breaking with the engine, low revs, low speeds, as I mentioned before. Just before getting into town, there is a stretch of road of maybe 1km where you can go about 60km/h. Halfway down that stretch the engine stalled again and I looked under the hood and the clear hose was full of diesel. Not a single tiny little bubble of air. Although this contradicts some previous experiences, I'm thinking this maybe proves what I was suspecting lately, which is that it might not be sucking air at all but that there is something in the tank that blocks the pickup tube. Makes sense, doesn't it..?
Then I decide to switch to the auxiliary tank and drive for a while and check what the hose looks like then, as Tapage asked me to. So I drive about 10km on the auxiliary tank - as always, no problem - stop and check the hose, and the hose is not even halfway full of fuel... The rest is AIR. Go figure, hahaha
I then continue to the province capital of Córdoba, a drive of about 80 km, switching back and forth between both tanks but trying to run as much on the main tank as possible, so as to drain it in case I have to take it out any time soon.
When I took off, the gauge of the main tank was showing midway between half and three quarters full and the auxiliary tank roughly about three quarters.
I was using the main tank at least 90% of the time. Whenever I felt it was not getting enough fuel and about to stall, I switched to the auxiliary, ran on that for maybe two minutes, but then immediately switched back to the main, which would give me maybe another 15 minutes to drive, before I had to repeat the procedure. As I said, I must have been using the main tank about 90% of the time.
When I got back home, the main tank was showing halfway between three quarters and full and the auxiliary was between half and one quarter. This means fuel had to go from the auxiliary to the main tank, which - correct me if I'm wrong - the diesel models aren't supposed to do. They are, from what I understand supposed to be independent, aren't they..?
So now I'm thinking, might it be possible that there is so much suction on the fuel line from the fuel/injector pump, which cannot be satisfied by the main tank because of its blocked pick-up tube that it maybe opens the changeover solenoid valve mechanically, by means of suction..? But if it does, and fuel is running freely from the auxiliary tank, then why does it still stall and how does that fuel get into the main tank?
This is really the strangest thing I ever experienced with a truck... I'm already considering contacting one of the witch doctors here in town, hahaha
Then I decide to switch to the auxiliary tank and drive for a while and check what the hose looks like then, as Tapage asked me to. So I drive about 10km on the auxiliary tank - as always, no problem - stop and check the hose, and the hose is not even halfway full of fuel... The rest is AIR. Go figure, hahaha
I then continue to the province capital of Córdoba, a drive of about 80 km, switching back and forth between both tanks but trying to run as much on the main tank as possible, so as to drain it in case I have to take it out any time soon.
When I took off, the gauge of the main tank was showing midway between half and three quarters full and the auxiliary tank roughly about three quarters.
I was using the main tank at least 90% of the time. Whenever I felt it was not getting enough fuel and about to stall, I switched to the auxiliary, ran on that for maybe two minutes, but then immediately switched back to the main, which would give me maybe another 15 minutes to drive, before I had to repeat the procedure. As I said, I must have been using the main tank about 90% of the time.
When I got back home, the main tank was showing halfway between three quarters and full and the auxiliary was between half and one quarter. This means fuel had to go from the auxiliary to the main tank, which - correct me if I'm wrong - the diesel models aren't supposed to do. They are, from what I understand supposed to be independent, aren't they..?
So now I'm thinking, might it be possible that there is so much suction on the fuel line from the fuel/injector pump, which cannot be satisfied by the main tank because of its blocked pick-up tube that it maybe opens the changeover solenoid valve mechanically, by means of suction..? But if it does, and fuel is running freely from the auxiliary tank, then why does it still stall and how does that fuel get into the main tank?
This is really the strangest thing I ever experienced with a truck... I'm already considering contacting one of the witch doctors here in town, hahaha
Is it possible that your vents in the main tank are blocked, and you generate so much of a vacuum that fuel delivery stops?
If that is the case, then you should see the engine stall much sooner on a full main tank than on an almost empty one.
Jan
If that is the case, then you should see the engine stall much sooner on a full main tank than on an almost empty one.
Jan
- Thread starter
- #25
Well, I ran the truck on the main tank with the fuel cap off for a while and it would still stall... that takes pretty much care of that, doesn't it?
Yes. Too bad.
Dave 2000
Not all Land Rovers are useless!
The 'mechanic never had the right filter' bothers me. TBH that filter is not needed, I had a customer in who had a mechanic change his petrol van to diesel. The damn thing never run right, I pulled the tank and sure enough the mesh filter for a petrol engine is much finer than a diesel or 'heavy oil' as they are known. Pulled and binned the filter, never missed another beat.
The IP pulls real hard on these motors and it is not uncommon to get the vacuum already mentioned, the air gets drawn in from the rubber hoses on the spill tube. You shut off the motor and the air gets drawn back through the filter towards the tank. None of this would be affected by removing the filler cap.
Pull the top of the tank open and remove the filter and give it ago.
regards
Dave
The IP pulls real hard on these motors and it is not uncommon to get the vacuum already mentioned, the air gets drawn in from the rubber hoses on the spill tube. You shut off the motor and the air gets drawn back through the filter towards the tank. None of this would be affected by removing the filler cap.
Pull the top of the tank open and remove the filter and give it ago.
regards
Dave
CycloSteve
SILVER Star
I would also check to see that the diverter valve is fully opening when switched to the main tank. Essentially I would do a full check of the line from fuel filter back to the pickup in the tank. Odds are that the blockage is between the diverter and the pickup as your sub works fine. Could be as simple as Dave said, and just be the pickup screen being clogged. The lines are big, thus should flow plenty of fuel without any restriction.
Fwiw : I had starting problems with my hd-ft 80 caused by air being sucked in.
My LC specialist mentioned the following possible causes :
Checked the filter in the tank : ok
Took off the acsd and put a blanking plate instead : problem solved.
If you want to test to take the acsd off, it's only 3 bolts and you can leave it hanging loose next to the ip pump.
Blanking plate is standard or very easilily made out of scrap metal. I used a flat piece of 4 mm steel.
Hope this helps.
Regards Wout.
My LC specialist mentioned the following possible causes :
- Blocked filter in the tank
- Hole rusted in the fuel line next to the tank
- Holes in the membrane of the priming pump on the fuel filter.
- Bad o-ring in acsd on ip pump.
Checked the filter in the tank : ok
Took off the acsd and put a blanking plate instead : problem solved.
If you want to test to take the acsd off, it's only 3 bolts and you can leave it hanging loose next to the ip pump.
Blanking plate is standard or very easilily made out of scrap metal. I used a flat piece of 4 mm steel.
Hope this helps.
Regards Wout.
- Thread starter
- #30
Two days ago I finally opened the tank to take a look inside. I took out the cover plate with the pick-up tube and the sending unit from the inside of the truck while the tank was in place. The pick-up tube with the non-original filter looked actually pretty good. The filter was very much like the original one, a sort of pouch with an inner plastic structure so as not to get sucked up by the vacuum from the pump. I actually realized that the filter that was in there before, that my mechanic gave me after they had taken out the tank to clean, was not the original either. Or let's say it wasn't the right one because it is original Toyota and original HDJ80 but it's the filter that goes into the auxiliary tank, which has a cylindrical shape.
Two things that worried me though: First, I have algae in the tank. Not really bad and solid organic material but there is like a black haze in the diesel and the filter is pitch black. Secondly, one of the divider walls inside the tank that keep the fuel from slushing back and forth while driving (I know there is a name for that but can't think of it...) has come loose and is floating freely in the tank. It doesn't affect the pick-up because it is inside a little compartment in the tank that protects it. But the sending unit float is outside that compartment and I'm afraid that it will be affected or even damaged in the long run. The plan is to take out the tank when I ran it empty. Maybe there's a way to fish it out...
To cut the long story short, I put on the old filter, which was clean, closed the tank and hooked up the hoses. I then went to the changeover valve, took it out (great fun without a lift...) and checked it according to the workshop manual procedure. Seems to be perfectly fine. I switched it on and off maybe 50 times and couldn't find anything wrong with it. So I put it back on and took off the vapor filter on the breather line. Air will pass through it but it takes quite an effort. Is that how it is supposed to be? Anyway, I ordered a new one with a set of tank filters from Toyota and left it off for now.
Ever since then the truck never stalled again. I was only going up and down my little mountain three times but before it would have stalled at least five times doing just that. I'm not sure now whether this is to be contributed to the filter change or the lack of vapor filter but I guess I'll find out soon.
Also, after I put everything back together, the main tank gauge was marking way less than before, which means the broken off divider wall does affect the sending unit but on the other hand it doesn't mean there was fuel coming in from the auxiliary tank, which I was thinking before...
I'm still not convinced. When I turn off the engine and look underneath the hood at the clear hose, there's a lot of air in it. Sometimes probably half of the hose is air. It's still running perfectly fine, at least while driving within town and climbing up my mountain. I will have to take it on the road soon...
Last but not least: what do I do about algae? Is there a way to get rid of it without using one of the chemicals/additives that are on the market? I see very little of this stuff down here and if I do it's prohibitively expensive...
Two things that worried me though: First, I have algae in the tank. Not really bad and solid organic material but there is like a black haze in the diesel and the filter is pitch black. Secondly, one of the divider walls inside the tank that keep the fuel from slushing back and forth while driving (I know there is a name for that but can't think of it...) has come loose and is floating freely in the tank. It doesn't affect the pick-up because it is inside a little compartment in the tank that protects it. But the sending unit float is outside that compartment and I'm afraid that it will be affected or even damaged in the long run. The plan is to take out the tank when I ran it empty. Maybe there's a way to fish it out...
To cut the long story short, I put on the old filter, which was clean, closed the tank and hooked up the hoses. I then went to the changeover valve, took it out (great fun without a lift...) and checked it according to the workshop manual procedure. Seems to be perfectly fine. I switched it on and off maybe 50 times and couldn't find anything wrong with it. So I put it back on and took off the vapor filter on the breather line. Air will pass through it but it takes quite an effort. Is that how it is supposed to be? Anyway, I ordered a new one with a set of tank filters from Toyota and left it off for now.
Ever since then the truck never stalled again. I was only going up and down my little mountain three times but before it would have stalled at least five times doing just that. I'm not sure now whether this is to be contributed to the filter change or the lack of vapor filter but I guess I'll find out soon.
Also, after I put everything back together, the main tank gauge was marking way less than before, which means the broken off divider wall does affect the sending unit but on the other hand it doesn't mean there was fuel coming in from the auxiliary tank, which I was thinking before...
I'm still not convinced. When I turn off the engine and look underneath the hood at the clear hose, there's a lot of air in it. Sometimes probably half of the hose is air. It's still running perfectly fine, at least while driving within town and climbing up my mountain. I will have to take it on the road soon...
Last but not least: what do I do about algae? Is there a way to get rid of it without using one of the chemicals/additives that are on the market? I see very little of this stuff down here and if I do it's prohibitively expensive...
Dave 2000
Not all Land Rovers are useless!
Classic filter issue BTDT. The fine mesh will soon become clogged again. To do the cleaning job properly you have to fill up with one of the additives and always refill the tank to the brim, even here the 'proper' additives are a small fortune, there is another way though, if the algae is all over the tank insides then this method you can use, time long price short.
First remove the divider so you can get your arm in there. Put hose in and get a syphon going, run the syphon into a clean container but do not let the end of the tank pick up any crap from the bottom, once you are getting down to the rubbish stop the syphon. Put another container under the tank and removed the bung, the last of the crappy fuel can go in there for disposal. Now with the tank empty you will need something called 'Agua Fuerte', which is Spanish for 'strong water'. I need a bit of help here, as I am unsure what it is called where you are, basically it is an acid that kills anything biological/organic, burns skin etc, it can be bought over the counter but only at hardware stores in Spain with a warning, it is cheap something like 5 euro's ($5.50) for 5 litres (1.3 US gallons). IIRC we has something similar in the UK called 'spirit of salts' but that is in distance grey cells so take it as 'I think'.
Taking all the usual safety measures, you need to pour it into a garden pressure sprayer with a 'wand' now pump up the pressure and spray it around the inside of the tank through the opening you have in the top, this is serious stuff so watch your eyes etc. Leave it for about two hours, this will immediately start to kill the algae, any excess will run out the bottom of the tank, cover the top opening. After the two hours give it another dosing, you will see the dead stuff draining out, again cover the opening, now give the inside a good spraying with some of the diesel you drained earlier, you MUST MUST spray the diesel in. As the acid will strip the metal clean, if you leave it overnight and it will start to rust, it is that good....bad? Replace bung refill with diesel, job done.
Fair comment if you think it is a lot of faffing around but, you do not spend a fortune on chemicals, you do not remove the tank, even the areas that might not get touched by the solution, the ferocity of the fumes will kill anything in the little nooks and crannies.
Warning! I spilt some in a bowl that was left in my work van, two days later anything made of bare metal, spanners, screwdrivers, ANYTHING not painted or protected was turned red rusty as the fumes permeated around the inside.
regards
Dave
First remove the divider so you can get your arm in there. Put hose in and get a syphon going, run the syphon into a clean container but do not let the end of the tank pick up any crap from the bottom, once you are getting down to the rubbish stop the syphon. Put another container under the tank and removed the bung, the last of the crappy fuel can go in there for disposal. Now with the tank empty you will need something called 'Agua Fuerte', which is Spanish for 'strong water'. I need a bit of help here, as I am unsure what it is called where you are, basically it is an acid that kills anything biological/organic, burns skin etc, it can be bought over the counter but only at hardware stores in Spain with a warning, it is cheap something like 5 euro's ($5.50) for 5 litres (1.3 US gallons). IIRC we has something similar in the UK called 'spirit of salts' but that is in distance grey cells so take it as 'I think'.
Taking all the usual safety measures, you need to pour it into a garden pressure sprayer with a 'wand' now pump up the pressure and spray it around the inside of the tank through the opening you have in the top, this is serious stuff so watch your eyes etc. Leave it for about two hours, this will immediately start to kill the algae, any excess will run out the bottom of the tank, cover the top opening. After the two hours give it another dosing, you will see the dead stuff draining out, again cover the opening, now give the inside a good spraying with some of the diesel you drained earlier, you MUST MUST spray the diesel in. As the acid will strip the metal clean, if you leave it overnight and it will start to rust, it is that good....bad? Replace bung refill with diesel, job done.
Fair comment if you think it is a lot of faffing around but, you do not spend a fortune on chemicals, you do not remove the tank, even the areas that might not get touched by the solution, the ferocity of the fumes will kill anything in the little nooks and crannies.
Warning! I spilt some in a bowl that was left in my work van, two days later anything made of bare metal, spanners, screwdrivers, ANYTHING not painted or protected was turned red rusty as the fumes permeated around the inside.
regards
Dave
- Thread starter
- #32
@dave2000: this is a very interesting idea. Although it isn't called "Agua fuerte" in these parts, I looked it up and it turns out to be muriatic or hydrochloric acid. Strong stuff! I'm sure this would do the job...
I did a little more reading on the bacterial/algae subject and this seems to be a real issue lately. From what I understand, this has become a problem more increasingly due to the lack of sulfur and the addition of biodiesel to diesel fuel these days. It is pretty safe to say that this will be a reoccurring problem in the future, as all kinds of tanks from production to transport to gas stations are affected. I had no idea. To be honest, I've only had my HDJ80 for about two years and it's the first diesel vehicle I ever had. No wonder the new common rail engines, injector pumps or injectors are all being destroyed. Or does E10 diesel have properties that would prevent that. I was gonna ask that anyway, if E10 diesel would be the better choice of fuel to prevent such thing...
The other thing I didn't know was that - correct me if I'm wrong - the divider wall in the tank has some kind of mechanism to be taken out and put back in. I just thought it had broken off inside the tank somehow. Good news!
In the meantime the truck was still running well. Today I took it on the road for a bit, traveled maybe 60km at speeds upward of 80km/h and it ran just fine.
The only thing I don't understand is why is the big tank affected so much and the small one so little or not at all..?
I did a little more reading on the bacterial/algae subject and this seems to be a real issue lately. From what I understand, this has become a problem more increasingly due to the lack of sulfur and the addition of biodiesel to diesel fuel these days. It is pretty safe to say that this will be a reoccurring problem in the future, as all kinds of tanks from production to transport to gas stations are affected. I had no idea. To be honest, I've only had my HDJ80 for about two years and it's the first diesel vehicle I ever had. No wonder the new common rail engines, injector pumps or injectors are all being destroyed. Or does E10 diesel have properties that would prevent that. I was gonna ask that anyway, if E10 diesel would be the better choice of fuel to prevent such thing...
The other thing I didn't know was that - correct me if I'm wrong - the divider wall in the tank has some kind of mechanism to be taken out and put back in. I just thought it had broken off inside the tank somehow. Good news!
In the meantime the truck was still running well. Today I took it on the road for a bit, traveled maybe 60km at speeds upward of 80km/h and it ran just fine.
The only thing I don't understand is why is the big tank affected so much and the small one so little or not at all..?
Maybe the big tank is the only one affected by the algae, or the issue is more prevalent in that tank? If the subtank filter isn't getting plugged, there would be no issue.
Yes ,sometimes they just need to be taken off and refitted correctly
The filter on the fuel pick up is just a piece of gauze and the same as other Toyota diesels. A bit like a washing machine filter.
Air is an annoying thing because it's often spasmodic. I think what happens sometimes is that the hoses/clamps are just tight enough but when the engine needs more fuel ,the extra vacuum causes a big bubble to leak in and then the engine stops.
Air is an annoying thing because it's often spasmodic. I think what happens sometimes is that the hoses/clamps are just tight enough but when the engine needs more fuel ,the extra vacuum causes a big bubble to leak in and then the engine stops.
Dave 2000
Not all Land Rovers are useless!
I agree, if the filter in the pickup does get blocked the additional suction from the IP will pull in whatever it can get, small hole in diaphragm, loose clamp, porous pipe. On the UK models the fuel filter is a plastic drum, it does not come with a new fuel pick up, see my post from a few years back with a picture here. Fuel gauge fault found
Mine had rust on it, the lowest part of diesel tanks often have water sitting there, this slowly rusts the bottom of the tank. Personally unless you can get the right filter on there I would take it off, the pre IP filter is finer mesh and it is easier to slip a fresh one on there with a spare in the boot.
Glad you found whatever chemical it is we have in Spain, and have faith it works great. I am thinking the algae is more of a problem caused by leaving a car parked up with no or very little fuel in the tank. Also the small back street garages that have a low turnover of fuel sales, so they may also have their fair share of algae contaminated fuel in their tanks just waiting to be pumped into yours. I always brim the tank from a main street garage, whether the car is going to be used or not, this gets fresh fuel to the upper areas of the tank on a regular basis, mine did stand for a year once but with a full tank before being laid up. I drained the whole lot a year later and binned it, refilled with a new batch of fuel and a new filter, cranked over and started first turn.
never had an algae problem in any of my diesels, and IIRC none of my customers cars either.
regards
Dave
good to see you've found the problem, damn fuel dramas are such a pain in the ass.
- Thread starter
- #38
They certainly are... Trucks still running fine. I used most of the diesel I had in the big tank and opened it to take another look at it. It wasn't actually too bad. What is kinda bad, is the divider in the tank that's broken off. After a comment of dave2000 I thought for a minute that these dividers could be taken in and out of their place in the tank, but that's not the case... At least not in my truck. I don't really know what to do as it is too big to get through the inspection hole. I was thinking of getting some metal scissors and cut it into pieces but I have a feeling the metal might be too thick. Any ideas?
As far as the bacteria/algae is concerned, I will use an additive that I got a hold of and see how that works. If it doesn't, I will go ahead with the muriatic acid treatment...
Thanks to everybody for their input and help, I appreciate it...
As far as the bacteria/algae is concerned, I will use an additive that I got a hold of and see how that works. If it doesn't, I will go ahead with the muriatic acid treatment...
Thanks to everybody for their input and help, I appreciate it...
