My 78's rear quarter/sill repair

Gusb · 12-01-08, 11:36 PM

My drivers-side rear quarter panel has had a minor collision at some point in the past. The rear sill also has the standard cruiser rot, which some PO/body shop filled with little plastic bags of bondo from the rear of the sill. Also a good part of the wheel cover/quarter panel spot weld seam is corroded with larger swell dimples beginning to show on the outside of the quarter panel (passenger-side is the same).

I've pulled the tire carrier and stripped all the paint and plastic filler. Next I'm going to strip and clean the inside of the quarter panel to get it ready for hammer and dolly. At this point I'm only concerned about doing a bit of repair (the right way) and improving the cosmetics of the truck a bit. Somebody has banged/sanded, and its a bit rough, but it really looks better than I expected. Lots of good metal and the tire mount area seems solid. Hopefully I can hammer/dolly it out to look much better.

My main question is about the sill, how hard it would be to replace correctly and if there's a standard method to follow when cutting out the old sill and welding in a new one. I think my old sill might still be ok with some proper welding/repair. There is a small bend from the impact coming through to the curved part of the bracket (see pict). Looks ike it can be hammered out.

I'm also considering removing all the old seam sealer on the wheel well spot welds (lap joint) and seeing if I can clean/treat the seam area to stop or at least slow the corrosion. Maybe scrape out, treat, hammer/dolly the seams a little and air force POR15 in there for now.

Thanks for any feedback.

Texx · 12-02-08, 01:59 AM

Knee bone's connected to the thigh bone. If you're going to weld in a new sill, best go ahead and patch the quarters while you're at it. You'll need to weld to the area where there's rust on the quarter, so you can't properly install the sill without working the quarter as well. You're not going to have much luck with the seam along the top of the inner fender. "Pulling out the seam sealer" will not give you enough room to do any good, it's spot welded about every 2.5 inches. Whatever corrosion is there, is there. Only way to repair it is to replace the entire quarter. Replacing the sill is very straight forward, just cut, cut, and smoke hatchet a little and you're in. I've used lots of different sill pieces, similar to the sor one. All require some fab skills. If you can weld, or know someone who can, this is a pretty easy repair. Then you just need to learn body work!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gusb

My drivers-side rear quarter panel has had a minor collision at some point in the past. The rear sill also has the standard cruiser rot, which some PO/body shop filled with little plastic bags of bondo from the rear of the sill. Also a good part of the wheel cover/quarter panel spot weld seam is corroded with larger swell dimples beginning to show on the outside of the quarter panel (passenger-side is the same).

I've pulled the tire carrier and stripped all the paint and plastic filler. Next I'm going to strip and clean the inside of the quarter panel to get it ready for hammer and dolly. At this point I'm only concerned about doing a bit of repair (the right way) and improving the cosmetics of the truck a bit. Somebody has banged/sanded, and its a bit rough, but it really looks better than I expected. Lots of good metal and the tire mount area seems solid. Hopefully I can hammer/dolly it out to look much better.

My main question is about the sill, how hard it would be to replace correctly and if there's a standard method to follow when cutting out the old sill and welding in a new one. I think my old sill might still be ok with some proper welding/repair. There is a small bend from the impact coming through to the curved part of the bracket (see pict). Looks ike it can be hammered out.

I'm also considering removing all the old seam sealer on the wheel well spot welds (lap joint) and seeing if I can clean/treat the seam area to stop or at least slow the corrosion. Maybe scrape out, treat, hammer/dolly the seams a little and air force POR15 in there for now.

Thanks for any feedback.

Gusb · 12-02-08, 09:35 AM

Thanks for all the helpful feedback Texx!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texx

You're not going to have much luck with the seam along the top of the inner fender. "Pulling out the seam sealer" will not give you enough room to do any good, it's spot welded about every 2.5 inches. Whatever corrosion is there, is there. Only way to repair it is to replace the entire quarter.

I thought at some point I could say, drill out the spot welds, maybe pull the wheel covers (and rear bed?), clean up everything, weld patch the quarter and weld everything back together. There seems to be lots of good steel left on the quarters to just trash them, and I like that they are original. If I need to replace the entire quarter at some point I may be wasting my time with the hammer/dolly cleanup now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texx

Replacing the sill is very straight forward, just cut, cut, and smoke hatchet a little and you're in. I've used lots of different sill pieces, similar to the sor one. All require some fab skills. If you can weld, or know someone who can, this is a pretty easy repair. Then you just need to learn body work!

Where specifically do I cut? Are there alignment issues when the sill is removed, or will the floor, wheel covers, etc. hold everything together? Is the sill bracket welded everywhere to the quarters or only in certain areas (i.e. is the curved tire mount area welded)? Can I leave the bottom frame bumper in place or is it removed somehow before I start cutting?

I'm looking at a Millermatic 140 MIG. What's a "smoke hatchet"?

Thanks again!

Texx · 12-02-08, 05:19 PM

Smoke hatchet...cutting torch. Drilling out the "wheel covers" (inner fenders) is gonna get you all the way to a new set of inner fenders, and new quarters. It's just not as easy as it seems. You're never gonna get all of every spot weld drilled, which means you'd need a air chisel to get it apart...ruined part. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I honestly can't see it being worthwhile. (And I've done a whole bunch of em.)
You have perforation at the spot welds, through the quarter from the inner fender? Go ahead and do the quarters, along with new inner fenders. There's plenty of hidden stuff in there, as you have surmised, and it'll pop it's head up about two months after the new paint. Millermatic 140 is a great tool, the Hobart handler 140 is also made by Miller, I'd buy the one with the best price. My hobart even came with a Miller stinger. How you cut the sill depends on the part you buy. Chances are the frame horns (curved portion that goes out to the quarters are rusted away anway. If you buy the sor piece, or something similar, you'll have to cut the quarters out anyway. The frame horns are spot welded to the quarter panel at the outside end, and that's where you have rust. On my current truck (1980 FJ40) I used a heritage piece, looks identical to the sor. Cut the sill at the outside ends inside the truck where it meets the inner fenders. (I use a cut off tool for this, air powered) Cut across the bed from left to right at the front edge of the sill, taking all the rust. Be prepared to have a filler piece of 16 guage made, because your sill probably won't meet the bed once you cut far enough to get all the rust out. Use a pry bar and start pulling it loose..this is where a torch comes in handy.

Texx · 12-02-08, 05:22 PM

If you're getting very deep into the quarters, I'd brace the opening by welding a piece of angle across the top of the tub to maintain geometry. If you're strictly doing the sill, shouldn't be necessary. You're gonna need the hard top off to weld the brace. It's the width of the opening you want to maintain. ccot has an example of this brace on their website.

Gusb · 12-03-08, 07:46 PM

Thanks again Texx,

Had a long conversation with Lance (very helpful) at Iron Pig Offroad Iron Pig Off Road : Toyota 4WD experts this AM about the state of Heritage body parts, getting a rear sill and quarters, etc. At this point I plan to:

Do a quick hammer/dolly rough fix on the driver's rear quarter and put on some temporary paint. I may play with the upper seam/old seam sealer/corrosion a bit, at least to get a temp POR15 in there for now. I'll post up if anything seems to have a positive outcome.

Buy the Millermatic 140 and start to practice - maybe take a welding class.

Start trying to locate quality sheet metal quarters, sill, etc.

Gusb · 01-17-09, 09:57 AM

Getting a bit deeper in the sill.

I had hoped to maybe save the main sill/horns - have it dipped and practice some fab/welding. Of course now that I'm getting in there it looks like it may be toast. The passenger side is the big hole, but the whole top seems to be questionable at this point.

The driver-side damage (rear quarter) is coming out (hammer/dolly) with lots of stuff falling out of the wheel cover seam (a few holes appearing) - so as the can of worms opens further...

Anyone have an opinion on the cleanest way (least damage) to remove the welds at the horns? Can't really identify the spot welds.

Sure seems like Toyota could have done better. One giant lap-seamed mud catcher right above the rear wheels.

Thanks

folsom50 · 01-17-09, 10:14 AM

I'm watching your progress do to the fact the sill in my '78 is in the exact same shape, only the PO bondo is on the ps 1/4 under the "toyota-4wd" emblems. I can see my spot welds on the horns from the inside of the wheel well.

I think I'm going to skip the aftermarket rear sills and do the 2x3 with flat strap on top.

Gusb · 01-17-09, 05:58 PM

Guess I won't be repairing the old sill.

Texx · 01-17-09, 08:36 PM

With that much of the old horn, you can fab a new one with minimal welding skills. Start with 2x2 square tubing, cut the "front" away from the top and bottom to the point where the curve first begins. Curve the "front" to match, cut away the top and bottom till you achieve the angle you need. Hard to describe, but not hard to do. You'd only be using the old one for a pattern.

Gusb · 01-18-09, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texx

With that much of the old horn, you can fab a new one with minimal welding skills. Start with 2x2 square tubing, cut the "front" away from the top and bottom to the point where the curve first begins. Curve the "front" to match, cut away the top and bottom till you achieve the angle you need. Hard to describe, but not hard to do. You'd only be using the old one for a pattern.

Thanks Texx/folsom50 - your feedback is much appreciated.

What kind of 2 inch tubing, cold roll, anything steel? Any special wall size, etc.

Cut like "A", or more like "B" (see attachment)?

What happens in the body mount, brace areas - do you cut openings in the tube for body mounts and misc. nuts to get welded in?

folsom50 - what is the "2x3 with flat strap" thing?

Dieseler · 01-18-09, 02:10 AM

A new sill is expensive but is worth the cost if you are not good at fabricating,you have to drill and weld the nuts for the tire carrier in the right spot and the indent for the ambi door latch plate as well as drill and weld in the nuts for the latch plate also drill the holes for the frame mounting.
Your sill also is indented to allow the ambi doors to close flush with the body and it is flanged on the front for the bed to line up flush,it is alot of planninig measuring and thinking if you do it yourself.
Good Luck keep us posted on it I will be doing one of mine this spring but I am saving my pennies so I can buy a new sill this is a pic of my sill

folsom50 · 01-18-09, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gusb

Thanks Texx/folsom50 - your feedback is much appreciated.

What kind of 2 inch tubing, cold roll, anything steel? Any special wall size, etc.

Cut like "A", or more like "B" (see attachment)?

What happens in the body mount, brace areas - do you cut openings in the tube for body mounts and misc. nuts to get welded in?

folsom50 - what is the "2x3 with flat strap" thing?

Gusb, follow this link. It might give you some ideas. Also follow 4x4 Station Wagons link on page 2, he just did a nice job replacing his sill.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series...nt-sill-2.html

I'm still planning on buying the skin, the holes are pre drilled so I can use that as my jig to drill the sill for the tire carrier hardware. See below.

Rear Sil Skin pre '79

As far as the CAD drawing (photo B) you just posted, that exactly what I had planned on doing. I had seen where someone had used 2x3, but I guess it may be overkill. Looks like from everything I've seen most people are using 2x2.

Gusb · 01-23-09, 02:35 PM

Well - the sill is out.

The floor, which is pitted, seems pretty solid and looks OK from below. I managed to pull the heat shields without breaking any bolts. Floor has a few big dents. The rust starting at the sill I've cut back a bit - may need to cut back more. This will mean an additional piece welded in to meet the new sill (minimum). Not sure if the floor is good enough to weld to in this area?

Rust in the lower quarters some of which no doubt needs to be cut away (minimum).

Still undecided about locating a sill or trying to fab something up. The CCOT cover piece looks good but I'm not sure about the inside horn thing they do.

Gusb · 01-23-09, 02:36 PM

Floor photos...

Gusb · 01-23-09, 02:38 PM

Inside lower quarters...

Gusb · 02-07-09, 11:07 AM

Beginning to explore a few seams and pattern some patches. Just a question of how far to go, how much to remove and if I can patch and rebuild areas in a reasonable way as I go. Also still pursuing the idea of patching the main corroded top seam on the wheel covers, little by little, which I know many think is insane

I'm thinking of ordering a full sheet of 18 ga and get it sheared to a bunch of established smaller sizes that I can then fine trim as I go along. Don't have any sheet metal machines (brake, etc.) so I'm limited to hand tools (and no air) at this point.

Need to find a better (accurate) way to cut out old metal - maybe an old style hand-nibbler of some kind. Also going to check the weld shop for some Clecos - hoping to do some decent fit-ups with the patches.

Jury still out on replacement sill...

Dieseler · 02-07-09, 12:19 PM

The floor in your picture is to rusted to weld to you ,have to start further back were the metal has no signs of rust or pitting,if you weld were you have cut in the picture you will continually burn holes in the metal and it will continue to rust out.
I would pull the entire floor and get a new one because you will never duplicate the dimpled pattern in the floor,and you won't be able to weld flat sheet to the dimpled contours of the remaining bed.
Any areas that show signs of pitting should be cut out till you get to good unrusted metal.
Looking at all the pics you have posted I would replace the wheel wells , bed, both quarters, and sill, if you don't the rust will keep coming up,time to open up the wallet and dig into the piggy bank.

Gusb · 02-07-09, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dieseler

Looking at all the pics you have posted I would replace the wheel wells , bed, both quarters, and sill, if you don't the rust will keep coming up,time to open up the wallet and dig into the piggy bank.

Well, the piggy bank is (always) a big consideration, but the availability of quality panels is also an issue (IMO). I have not seen a floor anywhere (CCOT, RealSteel, etc.) yet that seems to match the original pattern, and has the heat shield brackets/nuts, etc. in place. If some of these panels were still available from Toyota it would be (for me) an easier decision to try and break the bank. My FJ40 is far from perfect and had it's share of PO "improvements", but it's really close to original in the nooks and crannies and I value that. A CCOT restoration with clear-coat paint and after-market hardware is not what I'm after. Give me the original rust over that - as long as everything holds together.

Yeah - there's probably some kind of corrosion in just about any lap-joint seam want you pry open - it's just a question of how far to go. Removing the sill was a no-brainer - with the rest I guess I'll have to wait and see where the snowball stops rolling.

Thanks for the feedback Dieseler - always appreciated.

Dieseler · 02-07-09, 02:43 PM

CCOTs 65-78 looks like yours it has the horse shoe pattern on both sides you would only need the rear section.
EBI offers a cheaper priced bed section for yours half the price of CCOTs and thats CDN price with the exchange even cheaper

Texx · 02-07-09, 08:41 PM

On all the late model trucks I've restored that I've replaced the rear floor in (almost all of em), even with rust similar to yours, I was able to transfer the fuel tank and heat shield brackets to the new floor. You can drill em loose with a spot weld cutter. Take careful measurements, and of course pay very close attention to left, right, front, and back before welding. You won't find a floor with all the brackets. Even the gas tank brackets can be duplicated if necessary with a little practice.

Gusb · 02-18-09, 04:49 PM

Bought some steel ...

First patches coming along ... all my "break" work done on a bench vise at this point.

Weld training in-process ...

Going to check out the Pacol guy that has recently been posting (on mud) about body parts for a sill replacement.

milmin · 04-07-09, 08:51 AM

Great thread for a newcommer to sill fabrication! can't find the ebay seller , and need a source for a late model sill cover. Anyone know of one (or better yet - have one)?

Martian · 06-05-09, 09:16 PM

Gusb, great thread! How's that Millermatic 140 working out for you? I'm in the final week of a welding course that I'm taking through the local community college, and am planning on buying the same welder. BTW, you can make your own sheet metal brake now that you can weld. Miller - Projects - Bending Brake looks like a good first welding project.

Gusb · 06-07-09, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Gusb, great thread! How's that Millermatic 140 working out for you? I'm in the final week of a welding course that I'm taking through the local community college, and am planning on buying the same welder. BTW, you can make your own sheet metal brake now that you can weld. Miller - Projects - Bending Brake looks like a good first welding project.

Martian - ended up buying the MM 180 instead of the 140 - and it's been great. Had to run a new 50 amp breaker box/wiring etc. in the garage, but I think it was worth it. In the end I just decided it would be a little better overall and handle some heavier stuff in future. Thanks for he project link - I could really use a Brake.

Gusb · 09-06-09, 11:43 AM

I've continued this "sill" thread on:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series...fenders-3.html

... which kind of covers all my general tub repair stuff.

chicago · 11-16-09, 09:40 PM

Great read!
Im in the process of doing what it is that youre doing right now.
I ended up building my own sill, and tail gate pillars out of steel.
2x2 square for the sill, and 2x1 for the pillars. I also had to make my own fender wells for both sides.
Texx is right...removing those fender wells is a ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a couple of pics of my junk...