Thoughts on how much gun to defend against a wolf?

IdahoDoug · 02-09-09, 10:36 AM

With all the articles recently about the wolves in my area, I have been wondering how difficult one would be to kill. I'm not a hunter and carry in the woods strictly for self defense. My impression is that animals are kinda in two categories for how hard to take down they are. Things like coyote, fox, lynx, bobcat, mountain lions and other animals whose bodies use lighter bones are in one category (lets call them Bs). Creatures like bears, moose and other large ungulates are in the heavier category because they have massive bones, tough hides, layers of fat and/or muscle - let's call them As.

Ballistically, the A group needs a large, heavy fast moving round of a harder material to penetrate enough to do damage, and also to break a bone if it hits one trying to get to the vitals. The B group has bodies more akin to a human, which leaves them vulnerable to a smaller round.

It seems to me that wolves would be at or near the top of the A group, but not heavily built enough to warrant the larger rounds, and this is where I'm looking for opinions.

To frame the opinions, I have a 9mm which I carry hot rounds in that hit as hard as a .45 round and it carries 16 rounds full up. These rounds do well in the statistics for one shot stops from law enforcement. I also have a .44 which carries only 5 rounds full up - it's designed to be light for backpacking. Which would you guys carry if you were worried about a wolf attack while hiking with your family?

My first impression is that the 9 would bring down a wolf, which could be argued to have the ballistic challenge of a small man wearing winter clothing. Even a big wolf would only go 130lbs or so. Since wolves travel in groups of what - 8 or 10? - I would definitely value a bunch of rounds if I literally found myself being confronted by wolves. Sure, the .44 would provide the stopping power but I think the high capacity 9 would be my choice for repeat accurate shots of multiple moving targets. What do you guys think?

Finally, anyone know if the Hollywood movies are accurate that when confronted by a pack it's best to go after the alpha male first? In the movies, this makes the rest of the pack run off with their tails between their legs - heh.

DougM

e9999 · 02-09-09, 10:45 AM

I picture a big heavy dog with a temper... Of the 2 I'd go with the 9 if you're sure you won't get a bear interested too. Actually, I'd probably go with a 40 or 45 but that's a different story.

I'd shoot the first one going for you...

then again, how often does one hear of humans being attacked by packs of wolves? Is this even worth planning for? Maybe more likely that you'll be attacked by a methhead?

But be safe out there...

'69 Yota · 02-09-09, 01:51 PM

Personally I carry a SK 357 sig. It's got basically the same ballistics as a 357 magnum, but in a high capacity semi-auto gun. It's no bigger or heavier than your typical 9 mm. It's definately a handfull. It's way louder than my 357 magnum and I think it kicks harder.

WarDamnEagle · 02-09-09, 01:51 PM

Doug,

I honestly think a 22 semi (like a nice Browning Buckmark or Ruger) would ensure that you aren't eaten by a pack of wolves. I just don't think there is any comparison between a bear, for example, and a wolf. Also, I don't think they behave like a mountain lion which basically goes for broke at the last second. I think wolves on the other hand are more measured and like to play the odds.

Of course this comes from someone that has only dealt with coyotees in the past and never wolves....your results may vary!!

JayMilla · 02-09-09, 02:47 PM

The nine will be plenty.
If you are worried about packs, you should bring a 12 gauge with bird shot.
I think that you have more chance of being struck by lightning, while being attacked by a group of rabid wolverines, than being attacked by a pack of wolves.

centerlineseal · 02-09-09, 05:00 PM

Pack whatever you shoot best and, ...kill 'em all and let the liberals sort it out!

BROKEROB1 · 02-09-09, 05:43 PM

I have never been a big fan of Taurus, but I do like the idea of "The Judge" with alternating shot and lead

Personally, when I am hunting here in PA, (we've got Coyotes, small cats, and also bears) I carry my .45 on my hip with +P ammo, with two spare mags (25 rounds), along with my "pocket carry" .40 S&W with +P ammo (6 rounds).

What gun do you shoot very proficiently? I am not sure the 9 mm or even the .45 ACP is "enough round", but it is hard to argue against proficiency, especially if the first round from the .454 Casull knocks you on your keister. I think you are on the right track with your 9 mm.

IdahoDoug · 02-09-09, 05:49 PM

Yeah, I know the odds are low but ironically I live in one of the most densely populated wolf states in the lower 48 and the number of articles and reports about them seems to grow daily. I'd call myself someone who wants to be informed about defending myself, rather than someone who's actively worried about it happening. If I were actively worried, I guess I would change my behavior by no longer taking my family out into the woods.

Because of our travel habits, we tend to be in backwoods areas people normally don't access. So if something happens in my world it would not be in an organized campground where there might be other guys around with weapons or the ability to help. It would be just me.

There have been several articles about people having encounters at rural homes where the wolf or wolves did not just run off but retreated and stayed in the area. A little concerning to me if same were to happen to me while we were in the backcountry on a hike from our camp, which is already remote.

So, good to hear folks think the 9 will get the job done because that's really the one I'm accurate and fast with. Though I just remembered someone stole a box of hot 9 ammo out of my luggage over Christmas and I need to replace it.

DougM

MarkReye1 · 02-09-09, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

With all the articles recently about the wolves in my area, I have been wondering how difficult one would be to kill. I'm not a hunter and carry in the woods strictly for self defense. My impression is that animals are kinda in two categories for how hard to take down they are. Things like coyote, fox, lynx, bobcat, mountain lions and other animals whose bodies use lighter bones are in one category (lets call them Bs). Creatures like bears, moose and other large ungulates are in the heavier category because they have massive bones, tough hides, layers of fat and/or muscle - let's call them As.

Ballistically, the A group needs a large, heavy fast moving round of a harder material to penetrate enough to do damage, and also to break a bone if it hits one trying to get to the vitals. The B group has bodies more akin to a human, which leaves them vulnerable to a smaller round.

It seems to me that wolves would be at or near the top of the A group, but not heavily built enough to warrant the larger rounds, and this is where I'm looking for opinions.

To frame the opinions, I have a 9mm which I carry hot rounds in that hit as hard as a .45 round and it carries 16 rounds full up. These rounds do well in the statistics for one shot stops from law enforcement. I also have a .44 which carries only 5 rounds full up - it's designed to be light for backpacking. Which would you guys carry if you were worried about a wolf attack while hiking with your family?

My first impression is that the 9 would bring down a wolf, which could be argued to have the ballistic challenge of a small man wearing winter clothing. Even a big wolf would only go 130lbs or so. Since wolves travel in groups of what - 8 or 10? - I would definitely value a bunch of rounds if I literally found myself being confronted by wolves. Sure, the .44 would provide the stopping power but I think the high capacity 9 would be my choice for repeat accurate shots of multiple moving targets. What do you guys think?

Finally, anyone know if the Hollywood movies are accurate that when confronted by a pack it's best to go after the alpha male first? In the movies, this makes the rest of the pack run off with their tails between their legs - heh.

DougM

Doug,

I would go with a Glock 20 with Nightsights 10mm with some good rounds and you now have a 15 round capacity.

Carry 3 magazines and run them with the +2 base pads and now you have 52 rounds of 10mm pleasure. 1 in chamber plus 3 magazines.

If you got the Taurus Judge, I would stoke that thing with 45 LC 260 grain Partition Gold rounds.

Smith and Wesson and I think Taurus both make a lightweight 44 Mag. Carry 4 to 5 speed loaders and you are in biz.

Heavy is better, more is better. I think 10mm is your best bet.

Mark

Wile E Coyote · 02-09-09, 07:33 PM

If I were limiting myself to the pistols you mentioned, I'd carry the nine. Otherwise, I'd get hold of a semi auto carbine or even a shotty.

JLH911 · 02-09-09, 08:04 PM

You might want to ask the author of this thread

http://forum.ih8mud.com/hunting-fish...on-outing.html

flintknapper · 02-09-09, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by centerlineseal

Pack whatever you shoot best and, ...kill 'em all and let the liberals sort it out!

+1

Theres your answer!

They are not especially hard to kill and even easier to persuade to "leave".

And it's "WORLF"......remember?

4WD Toyota Owner Magazine · 02-09-09, 11:09 PM

Come on. Worried about being attacked by wolves, even in Idaho where they are doing quite well? 825 wolves in an 83,642 square mile state?

Pack a camera instead and get a real shot of a lifetime.

When I lived in Alaska (Healy, to be exact, then out in the Chugach range area, south) and locals there will tell you, wolves won't bother a human, a human with dogs, or any such. Too smart. Not interested--you're not their prey. Shot at by hunters/poachers. Etc etc. Bears are another story. You damn well do carry a gun for the bears, though--I had a S&W .44 Magnum. But people up there don't carry for wolves--bears are what they are worried about.

Maybe Idaho wolves are different. I doubt it.

You'd be lucky as hell to ever see one. Maybe, if you're EXTREMELY lucky, on the ridge across the valley.

Waste of energy to carry a gun, worried about wolves fer gosh sakes.

I grew up in La Grande, Oregon, so this interested me:

Radio-collared wolf spotted in Norheast Oregon - PDX Green - OregonLive.com

If someone was recently kidnapped and murdered in your hiking area, I'd carry a piece. Worried about wolves, never. And I own a Colt M4, Steyr 9mm, Walther .22, first year Ruger 10-22, etc etc. I'm no anti-gun nut. YMMV!

Dave

IdahoDoug · 02-09-09, 11:22 PM

Dave,

Yeah, I hear you - they'll pretty much avoid humans. And I agree it's well down the list of dangers. And I'm even a pro wolf kinda guy as in bring 'em back and let 'em run and don't hunt them back to rarity. But I'm also a realist and I don't think I'd be far off that there has been an article every two weeks all winter about human encounters in Idaho. Just a bit eerie and we spend a lot of time out there.

I'm glad that it seems I won't have to lug the .44 or shotgun around.

Heck, tomorrow night I'll be up on 4th of July pass snowshoeing until about midnight, and there have been sightings between there and Kellogg. I am glad to carry the .44 this time of year because we run into a moose once in a while and running from a pissed moose in snowshoes is a poor option because they are highly mobile in snow. Hmm, wonder how to modify the Weaver stance with snowshoes on.....

DougM

IdahoDoug · 02-09-09, 11:26 PM

And yes, I meant to ask about the elusive and ever cunning worlf......

DougM

4WD Toyota Owner Magazine · 02-09-09, 11:27 PM

On a side note of Alaska, in Denali, hikers apply for permits and go cross country--there are few trails. That's some good solid bear country, but there are plenty of wolves there too. Check out the following links. TONS of warnings about bears--seriously, a lot--nothing on wolves. They just aren't considered a legitimate threat to humans. And out there, in the National Park, you don't get to carry firearms, it's prohibited! You hike with bear spray and a pocket knife and good ol' common sense about your food storage.

Look at all the bear warnings and tips here:
Denali National Park Hiking Guide

Wolf info here:
Wolves in Denali National Park and Preserve

4WD Toyota Owner Magazine · 02-09-09, 11:29 PM

I'd love to see your neck of Idaho---I miss Eastern Oregon and going into Idaho to ski, and raft the Snake River/Hells Canyon! Have there been a lot of sightings locally to you?

flintknapper · 02-10-09, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

And yes, I meant to ask about the elusive and ever cunning worlf......

DougM

Yeah, I thought you knew better!

For those who are not familar...

The original “Worlf” thread:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/hunting-fish...tards-big.html

Then another:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/hunting-fish...f-weekend.html

Much usage of “Worlf” thereafter. Pretty much standard now….like “Gub”.

bigndn · 02-10-09, 08:30 AM

Hi, Doug! From what I've seen, I believe your 9mm would be adequate. We've ran into them in elk camp and although I have yet to see one up here, the reports are indicating that their numbers are increasing. I don't see worlfs as a threat so much as an curious animal. While they are capable of preying on humans, there's an awful lot of deer around here and other critters that don't shoot at them or threaten them.

Now if a person were injured, bloody, or unconscious and they were hungry enough, who knows.....

Also, FWIW, I'd be more worried about a cow moose with a calf than a worlf.

centerlineseal · 02-10-09, 08:59 AM

I believe the key to the Idaho wolf issue is to allow controlled hunting by legitimate hunters. Keeps 'em wary of humans and thinned down enough to not become a major nuisance.

One of the big arguments about wolves here is how they pick on the elk and how the elk populations are down because of wolves. Well, they are here to stay and elk hunting has changed forever.

Lets us shoot a few and get them scarce during hunting season, and we can figure out how to hunt our beloved elk under the new conditions.

That said, I'm lookin' to bag one with my newly acquired 338 Lapua in a Sako TRG 42. Now that' enough gun!

orvis17 · 02-10-09, 09:08 AM

Doug,
Let me start by saying that we have a fair amount of wolves ourselves. That being said, they are becoming more and more used to encounters with humans, and like their cousins the coyote, learn quite quickly. They are learning and becoming less and less concerned, especially encounters on foot. On occasion I have run into wolves out hunting, and they really are not that concerned, nor are they aggressive toward a human yet. The time will come however. They have no reason to fear us yet, and they know it.

That being said, if you are defending against a wolf attack, it is my opinion that a handgun and its effective range is too close. You have waited too long. Therefore, if you are using a handgun, I would choose to use the revolver that shoots those .410 shells. You will be under extreme direst and therefore accuracy will be marginal at best.

Use deterrents sooner rather than later.
My .02

Atoyot1031 · 02-10-09, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintknapper

And it's "WORLF"......remember?

Is this a regular worlf or a zombie worlf?

Super Tico · 02-10-09, 12:40 PM

A rimfire will not phase an angry,large canine unless he´s sitting still staring at you.
There are all kinds of fancy,BS guns and calibers out there. Get a 9 or a 45 if you like semi auto or a 357 or 44 mag if you like revolvers.
Taurus makes good handguns these years. A Glock 9 if your wallet is thick.
I was a gunsmith before I moved here......26 years worth.

619TOY · 02-10-09, 07:26 PM

I'm with Dave in believing that wolves do not post a legitimate danger to human beings. I know I have read reports in the past that state that there are no recorded wolf related deaths to humans in states known to have them ever.

I have been to Alaska a half dozen times or so and have carried everything from a 12 ga. with rifled slugs to a .454 to a .500 S&W and never felt as if I was carrying enough gun for a bear.

If I were in a state where guns were more politically correct, I would carry a .45 without question. I bet that there have been more documented mountain lion attacks in California than wolf attacks in Idaho.

Sorry to seem obtuse at the last minute but I don't believe that any 9mm round will hit as hard as a .45 in the real world. My .02

IdahoDoug · 02-10-09, 08:21 PM

To clarify, my Glock 9 with hot +p+ will hit as hard as a garden variety .45 round. You can get higher output .45 rounds that are clearly superior to anything a 9 will do. I'm happy with 16 rounds hitting that hard vs the smaller capacity of a typical .45. Of course even that is changing now with some innovative .45 high capacity products out.

I've had this 9 for 17 years now and really like its overall package - knockdown power, high capacity, compact size (model 19), reliability, accuracy and simplicity of design. Hope I never have to use it in anger, but I'm confident it will get the job done.

Hope the worlves keep to themselves frankly. I really don't want to read about somebody's kid getting hurt. It's bad enough hearing about mountain lions and kids - yeesh.

DougM

Wile E Coyote · 02-11-09, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4WD Toyota Owner Magazine

And out there, in the National Park, you don't get to carry firearms, it's prohibited!

Not anymore, hehe. How we got that by the anti's surprises me, but it happened none-the-less.

Brian in Oregon · 02-11-09, 10:08 PM

If the name ends in "Magnum" or the caliber begins with a "4" you'll be OK.

IDave · 02-11-09, 11:03 PM

I've had several encounters with worlfs in the wild, and they've always gone the other way. The closest was one who didn't sense me until it walked up to 35 yards away. Almost got the cell phone camera pic (well, it's blurred because I was shaking so much

). I have friends who while out hunting have had worlf packs circle them, checking them out, then leave.

Far more common and worrisome are guys like these:

IdahoDoug · 02-12-09, 10:13 PM

Yowza. I cannot imagine having a worlfpack circle me and my family out in the woods. That is just hard to fathom the emotions you'd have. No idea if this is the correct thing to do, but I'd pick out the alpha male and pound him if we were truly being circled. That would be too much for me to sit by and experience without taking action.

Cannot imagine that - your buddies surely had weapons so I respect their ball size....

DougM

IDave · 02-12-09, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Cannot imagine that - your buddies surely had weapons so I respect their ball size....

DougM

Yes, they were well armed. I think they were aware they were being inspected and not threatened, although I'm sure they were frightened during the process. I'm also sure that they look back on it as a neat experience.

Worlf pack along the road somewhere in central Idaho, 11/08.