[bigndn]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Thanks Chad. Got the info and it's timely as heck as I'll be up the CDA river camping with my daughter and her camp group girls so they can get their merit badges for shelter making, fire starting etc. I'll be the bear repellant as well....

DougM

Good deal! Hope you have a good camping trip! Anytime I can be of service, just give me a call.

Where are you planning to camp?

[IdahoDoug]

Looks like up the CDA river about 10 miles from the iron bridge. Couple other Dads chose the spot and because I have a flexible schedule I'm going up Friday to secure the spot. Weather forecast sure improved (whew). I'm going to take the .44 in Thursday and fire a few of the hot rounds at the range which I've been dreading. Gotta know how much added kick to expect tho.....

DougM

[thisilldefend]

CDA river!!!!!!! Thats some of my old stomping grounds. Moving to Missoula after this 20month deployment and will be visiting CDA a bunch. I used to work on the floting green and guided elk hunters near Murray. We used to get beer at the sprag pole when someone got an Elk. I cant wait to get back to the most beautiful part of the country.

[IdahoDoug]

Be sure to look me up when you get here. It's Friday and I'm here, not there as my daughter just got better after a week of being sick. With night temps below freezing and rain forecast Sat/Sun we thought it wise. So instead of hand building shelters for a dozen kids and sitting in the rain I'll be downing a couple Kokanee and surfing Mud......what a country.

DougM

[bigndn]

Originally Posted by thisilldefend

CDA river!!!!!!! Thats some of my old stomping grounds. Moving to Missoula after this 20month deployment and will be visiting CDA a bunch. I used to work on the floting green and guided elk hunters near Murray. We used to get beer at the sprag pole when someone got an Elk. I cant wait to get back to the most beautiful part of the country.

We'll have to do some shooting when you get here. I'm about 15 minutes N of Silverwood, but I get over to MSO frequently. Bonus: one of my buddies is the wildlife biologist out of Sula/W Fork Ranger Districts. I'll have him hook you up if you're into hunting.

Thanks for your service!

[bigndn]

Well..........how'd it go? Did you Donner party and feast on Biff and Wanda?

[Bryan062087]

Wolves are not predators to humans, they are not going to run through a barage of bullets to get to you. In fact, your presence will probably scare them away.

Only possible reason I could imagine you would need a gun around wolves would be if it/they had rabies.

Not even touching on the illegality of shooting a member of the enangered species.

This whole topic is really just repulsive.

[bigndn]

Originally Posted by Bryan062087

Wolves are not predators to humans, they are not going to run through a barage of bullets to get to you. In fact, your presence will probably scare them away.

Only possible reason I could imagine you would need a gun around wolves would be if it/they had rabies.

Not even touching on the illegality of shooting a member of the enangered species.

This whole topic is really just repulsive.

What kind of personal experiences have you had with wolves??

Also, FWIW, shooting a T&E species is perfectly fine under a self-defense scenario, which is what Doug describes.

[Bryan062087]

Are you disputing facts?

Its common knowledge, or at least I thought it was. Wolf attacks are very rare. Its almost a non-issue. They are not inherently aggressive towards humans. Actually the oppposite.

That said, I have no problem with self-defense against any animal. But I'd much more worry about encountering some fanatical, gun-toting NRA member out in the wilderness than any wolf that comes a long.

Obviously there needs to be more education for people who want to carry guns if there is debate on what size round needed to put down wolves and whether or not wolves behave like they do "in the movies". IMO, the more people like guns, the more they are looking for an excuse to shoot them.

[bigndn]

Originally Posted by Bryan062087

Are you disputing facts?

I simply asked what your experiences with wolves has been. I haven't had any personal experiences, although I live, work, hunt, and recreate in wolf country. I've seen plenty of tracks, but I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'm far from an expert.

Originally Posted by Bryan062087

Its common knowledge, or at least I thought it was. Wolf attacks are very rare. Its almost a non-issue. They are not inherently aggressive towards humans. Actually the oppposite.

So you're not denying that wolf attacks have occurred, no matter how rare?? I'd rather be able to defend myself and family against your 'almost non-issue' should the need arise, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Bryan062087

That said, I have no problem with self-defense against any animal. But I'd much more worry about encountering some fanatical, gun-toting NRA member out in the wilderness than any wolf that comes a long.

That's an everyday occurrence here in North Idaho. We're not as bad as you'd think.

Originally Posted by Bryan062087

Obviously there needs to be more education for people who want to carry guns if there is debate on what size round needed to put down wolves and whether or not wolves behave like they do "in the movies". IMO, the more people like guns, the more they are looking for an excuse to shoot them.

Do you know what size round would be recommended to put down a wolf? I'd use whatever size that would kill it, because I'm not interested in wounding it if I'm defending myself or family (including pets). Mostly in the woods my wife carries her 9 mm and I carry my .40, both are Glock's and we're proficient in their use.

There's been many a dog lost to wolves here, especially hounds. By the time the hunters have caught up to their hounds, the wolf pack has had their fun, mostly for sport. That's facts talking.

[IdahoDoug]

Bryan,

While I share your desire not to shoot an animal of any kind, I abhor your views on guns and the people that value them. You are certainly entitled to choose whether or not you have a weapon on hand in the event a wild animal does what wild animals do. As for me, when I am in the woods with my wife and children I am no longer just their father and the guy she loves. I am the biggest baddest thing with a heartbeat for 10 miles in any direction and it stays that way until we are no longer in the woods, and that is my responsibility to fill those shoes. Since the woods where we recreate have predators that can easily take me down as part of their food chain if they want to, a sidearm is the way I place myself back on the top of the food chain. Plain and simple.

If you feel I need more justification than that simple explanation then the gulf between us may remain unbridged.

DougM

[Mars]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Bryan,

While I share your desire not to shoot an animal of any kind, I abhor your views on guns and the people that value them. You are certainly entitled to choose whether or not you have a weapon on hand in the event a wild animal does what wild animals do. As for me, when I am in the woods with my wife and children I am no longer just their father and the guy she loves. I am the biggest baddest thing with a heartbeat for 10 miles in any direction and it stays that way until we are no longer in the woods, and that is my responsibility to fill those shoes. Since the woods where we recreate have predators that can easily take me down as part of their food chain if they want to, a sidearm is the way I place myself back on the top of the food chain. Plain and simple.

If you feel I need more justification than that simple explanation then the gulf between us may remain unbridged.

DougM

Well said Doug.

[IdahoDoug]

Thanks. I find speaking from the heart is often the most direct way to communicate. Life's actually pretty simple, but we humans have made it complex with poor communication.

DougM

[1shot1kill]

Wolves posses WMDs, they kill for sport, they are evil or have known to be members of the axis of evil animals! This is all you need to know to kill them or if that's too complicated call them Haji - let's stop this BS about being fathers, husbands and the obligation to protect!

Some Humans enjoy killing, so let's be honest about it - I hunt because I enjoy hunting deer and elk! It is a huge part of my life. I don't excuse or rationalize killing deer or elk, because I am part of population control or blah blah. I love the camping, stalking, scouting,the meat, hanging out with friends and most importantly pulling the trigger to kill a deer or an elk. However, I must admit I am less and less enjoying packing the meat out - bad knees and age!

[IdahoDoug]

What's wrong with the part about being father, husband and protecting? You got kids? A wife? Go in the woods with them to enjoy the sweetest part of this fine country? That's about as simple a reality as it can be made. If a couple drunk buttwipes walk into our campsite making smartass comments with a shotgun over their shoulders - I'm not on deck, it's batter up now! How's it work in your family? Is that when your 10 year old daughter defends the family??? I have absolutely no understanding of your comment calling that BS. None. Care to help me out?

DougM

[1shot1kill]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

What's wrong with the part about being father, husband and protecting? You got kids? A wife? Go in the woods with them to enjoy the sweetest part of this fine country? That's about as simple a reality as it can be made. If a couple drunk buttwipes walk into our campsite making smartass comments with a shotgun over their shoulders - I'm not on deck, it's batter up now! How's it work in your family? Is that when your 10 year old daughter defends the family??? I have absolutely no understanding of your comment calling that BS. None. Care to help me out?

DougM

I guess I have never had any drunk wolves walk into my campsite with shotguns making smartass remarks, so I really cannot comment.

The rest of your questions are leading, so with all due respect they are not worth answering!

You enjoy carrying your firearm in the woods and feel good about protecting your family. There is nothing wrong with that, but to demonize wolves is a mistake!

[inthewall]

I hope they are taken off the endangered list. I would love to hunt a wolf legally.

[Fly Rod]

Doug,

My choice would be the 9 loaded with +p DPX's. It'll do and then some.

If anyone feels a person should not be prepaired to protect thier loved ones they should keep thier opinion to themselves. A part of being prepaired is exactly what Doug is doing, thinking and discussing it. Go ahead and keep your head, and opinion, in the sand.

[IDave]

Well, they were again officially delisted yesterday. Here are the latest rules in Idaho from Fish and Game:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/re...fm?NewsID=4882

[inthewall]

Huntable by september 2009. That will be a hard tag to draw

[KayakPanic]

i do not think that you need a gun in wolf country at all.

i have hiked thousands of miles and spent years worth of nights all over the Rocky Mtns. and never have had what I would consider a close encounter yet. Natl. Forests, National Wildernesses, National Parks.

I have had a few scares but, as listed by someone above, my dog took care of those. Usually it is an elk or something, but when he gets going I guarantee anything within 2 miles is going to hear it!

I have also seen wolves on multiple occasions and my dog scared them off plenty well, even from within 100 yards. I not some pussy that needs a gun to prove it. Also, I think any wolf killed in self defense with A KNIFE would be way cooler to tell people about anyways.

Also, wolves are MEANT TO BE HERE!!!
They are not on Earth so we can hunt them.
They were at the top of the food chain for a long, long, long time before guns and retards started to mix.
They also are going to make for much, much larger bull elk (what do you think the antlers are for, sheetdip?) as well as moose.

[JayMilla]

Originally Posted by KayakPanic

i do not think that you need a gun in wolf country at all.

i have hiked thousands of miles and spent years worth of nights all over the Rocky Mtns. and never have had what I would consider a close encounter yet. Natl. Forests, National Wildernesses, National Parks.

I have had a few scares but, as listed by someone above, my dog took care of those. Usually it is an elk or something, but when he gets going I guarantee anything within 2 miles is going to hear it!

I have also seen wolves on multiple occasions and my dog scared them off plenty well, even from within 100 yards. I not some pussy that needs a gun to prove it. Also, I think any wolf killed in self defense with A KNIFE would be way cooler to tell people about anyways.

Also, wolves are MEANT TO BE HERE!!!
They are not on Earth so we can hunt them.
They were at the top of the food chain for a long, long, long time before guns and retards started to mix.
They also are going to make for much, much larger bull elk (what do you think the antlers are for, sheetdip?) as well as moose.

A man wants to be prepared to defend his family and you want to make fun of him. Nice.
Do you have children? When you do, as a father you are the protector. Even when you know the chances are extremely slim, you need to be prepared. Even if that offends a hippy or two.
Your post proves that you don't need a gun to be a pussy, or a retard. Congratulations.
Everything on Earth is prey to humans. Even animals that USED to be at the top of the food chain.
Wolves are definitely going to mean smaller herds of elk and fewer moose. This is already happening. Will it make for larger bulls? Maybe. Will it make for fewer bulls? Certainly.
Why don't you go to a bar where LOCALS hang out, and preach your superior knowledge there? I am sure you will make many new friends. Everyone loves a know-it-all tourist, oops, I mean transplant.

[73fj40lc]

Panic you are only 27 so how in those 27 tender years have you come to know so much? You regularly call people vulgar name just because they have a different opinion than you. You really need to grow up and get some maturity. This forum is not the place for you to act immature. By the time I was your age I had nine years in the military and was alot more mature due to my experiences. We all have different opinions. Alot of those opinions have been tempered my experience and not by an internet search. I am 40 and I still listen to my elders because with age comes wisdom. I am not trying to personally attack you, but get you to think about what you say to others.

[KayakPanic]

in this particular instance, i wanted to give first hand knowlege of the wolf experiences that i have had. all four of them (more than anyone else on this post).

I was born, have grown up, in the Yellowstone Ecosystem. pertaining to this and my other posts, this is both grizzly bear country as well as wolf country.

over the past 27 years i was in the wilderness learning how to think for myself, and not be so fearful about everything. i would guess that all together i have spent between 1000-2000 nights in the National Forest, Wilderness, and National Park systems, as well as countless days. Also willing to go out on a limb and say that this is more time spent than most, or all, who have posted here.

there is no way that our experiences in the first 27 years of our lives are comparable in hardly any way.

here are a few examples of my experiences:
-skier for 26 years
-snowboarder for 22 years
-flyfisherman for 23 years
-backpacker for 22 years
-hunter for 15 years
-rock climber for 15 years
-mountain biker for 17 years
-telemark skier for 5 years
-kayaker for 5 years

between the experiences of these sports alone i have 150 years of experience in the national forest/wilderness systems.

additionally, i have lived a life of service to my country as well by volunteering (for FREE) thousands of hours for the communities in which i have lived, including educating children, as well as visiting with elders or senior citizens, giving back more than i have taken the whole time.

i do not base my opinions of the heart on internet searches. i know what i beleive and that scares many people. i do not need Fox News or CNN, or the LOCALS at the bar, to tell me how or what to think.

i hope you can understand me a bit better by this.

[73fj40lc]

It seems that I may stand corrected somewhat. We both have to passion to protect where we live. I have spent time in the mid- west and west coast. I loved all of it but the deserts of New Mexico and California. Beautiful country but definatly not where I would want to live. I have a good friend that lived in Alaska and now resides in Montana. He guided hunters and had a lodge in Alaska and now he does the same in Montana. He absolutly loves Montana. We do not have the wide open unpopulated spaces that you have. I am perfectly at home in the woods. Like you I grew up hunting, fishing and camping. In the south we have problems with trespassing. People either hunting without permission on your land or simply dog driving onto your land. People also try to dump trash on your land. I have had confrontations with armed hunters hunting where they knew they were not supposed to be. Not all are ready to leave just because you say so. I respect any living animal but the two legged upright animal gives me the most cause for concern.

Originally Posted by KayakPanic

in this particular instance, i wanted to give first hand knowlege of the wolf experiences that i have had. all four of them (more than anyone else on this post).

I was born, have grown up, in the Yellowstone Ecosystem. pertaining to this and my other posts, this is both grizzly bear country as well as wolf country.

over the past 27 years i was in the wilderness learning how to think for myself, and not be so fearful about everything. i would guess that all together i have spent between 1000-2000 nights in the National Forest, Wilderness, and National Park systems, as well as countless days. Also willing to go out on a limb and say that this is more time spent than most, or all, who have posted here.

there is no way that our experiences in the first 27 years of our lives are comparable in hardly any way.

here are a few examples of my experiences:
-skier for 26 years
-snowboarder for 22 years
-flyfisherman for 23 years
-backpacker for 22 years
-hunter for 15 years
-rock climber for 15 years
-mountain biker for 17 years
-telemark skier for 5 years
-kayaker for 5 years

between the experiences of these sports alone i have 150 years of experience in the national forest/wilderness systems.

additionally, i have lived a life of service to my country as well by volunteering (for FREE) thousands of hours for the communities in which i have lived, including educating children, as well as visiting with elders or senior citizens, giving back more than i have taken the whole time.

i do not base my opinions of the heart on internet searches. i know what i beleive and that scares many people. i do not need Fox News or CNN, or the LOCALS at the bar, to tell me how or what to think.

i hope you can understand me a bit better by this.

['74 UA FJ]

Good posts, kayak.

[KliersLC]

Originally Posted by KayakPanic

i do not think that you need a gun in wolf country at all.

i have hiked thousands of miles and spent years worth of nights all over the Rocky Mtns. and never have had what I would consider a close encounter yet. Natl. Forests, National Wildernesses, National Parks.

I have had a few scares but, as listed by someone above, my dog took care of those. Usually it is an elk or something, but when he gets going I guarantee anything within 2 miles is going to hear it!

I have also seen wolves on multiple occasions and my dog scared them off plenty well, even from within 100 yards. I not some pussy that needs a gun to prove it. Also, I think any wolf killed in self defense with A KNIFE would be way cooler to tell people about anyways.

Also, wolves are MEANT TO BE HERE!!!
They are not on Earth so we can hunt them.
They were at the top of the food chain for a long, long, long time before guns and retards started to mix.
They also are going to make for much, much larger bull elk (what do you think the antlers are for, sheetdip?) as well as moose.

Any wolf can take out any dog, period. The only reason your dog didn't get eaten was years and years of people shooting at wolves. They now know that when Fido is accompanied by master, it is wisest to leave him alone. The fact that you have not had problems in no way indicates whether others have had problems. You may have spent some time in the back country, but so have others.

Originally Posted by KayakPanic

in this particular instance, i wanted to give first hand knowlege of the wolf experiences that i have had. all four of them (more than anyone else on this post).

I was born, have grown up, in the Yellowstone Ecosystem. pertaining to this and my other posts, this is both grizzly bear country as well as wolf country.

over the past 27 years i was in the wilderness learning how to think for myself, and not be so fearful about everything. i would guess that all together i have spent between 1000-2000 nights in the National Forest, Wilderness, and National Park systems, as well as countless days. Also willing to go out on a limb and say that this is more time spent than most, or all, who have posted here.

there is no way that our experiences in the first 27 years of our lives are comparable in hardly any way.

here are a few examples of my experiences:
-skier for 26 years
-snowboarder for 22 years
-flyfisherman for 23 years
-backpacker for 22 years
-hunter for 15 years
-rock climber for 15 years
-mountain biker for 17 years
-telemark skier for 5 years
-kayaker for 5 years

between the experiences of these sports alone i have 150 years of experience in the national forest/wilderness systems.

additionally, i have lived a life of service to my country as well by volunteering (for FREE) thousands of hours for the communities in which i have lived, including educating children, as well as visiting with elders or senior citizens, giving back more than i have taken the whole time.

i do not base my opinions of the heart on internet searches. i know what i beleive and that scares many people. i do not need Fox News or CNN, or the LOCALS at the bar, to tell me how or what to think.

i hope you can understand me a bit better by this.

So, at the tender age of one month you lived and learned in the wilderness? Right.

So, have you spent roughly three years worth of nights out, or six years? There is a wee bit of difference. Maybe saying 350-400 would be a good estimation, but 1000-2000......holy margin for error batman!

Based on your 2000 night figure, starting at age 5, you have spent 90 nights in the woods EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I call BS. (unless we are including nights spent in a tent in the front yard--then I might believe you)

I wonder, between spending 3 months camping and then the rest of the year going to school, when did you find the time to donate thousands of hours back to your community?

Skiing at age one?
Fly fishing at age 4?
How much gear could you put in your pack at age 5?
Sitting on a snow board at age 5 does not make one a snow boarder or in any way contribute to one's "wilderness experience"

What is with the cumulative concurrent experience crap? If you worked at a burger joint for 5 years, and during that time made burgers, operated the cash register and cleaned, you would not tell a prospective employer that you had 15 years of experience in food service.

You have spent some time in the woods. Good on you. That is more than a lot of people can say. However, telling people that you have "150 years of experience" is purely asinine.

I know Doug personally, and he is a stand up guy. I share his views on protection of family and would feel safer knowing that he was toting his beloved gun through the forest attempting to prey on harmless woodland creatures. (sarcasm)


I feel that I may have gone on long enough, but let me end with this. How could you live with yourself if your daughter was killed by a wolf/mountain lion/bear etc in front of you, and you had no way to stop it? Carrying a sidearm is a simple means of insurance. I will either protect my family or die trying. My odds are greatly improved when I have a firearm.

Think about it before you fire off another poorly thought out post.

Dan

[IDave]

Originally Posted by KayakPanic

in this particular instance, i wanted to give first hand knowlege of the wolf experiences that i have had. all four of them (more than anyone else on this post)...

Well, no, I'm way ahead of you. And one more this morning.

And, I have you beat on everything else but rock climbing, unless you count non-technical.

Why is it you think you have everyone in this post beat for experience? I mean, you have no idea.

[IdahoDoug]

The probability I would need a weapon to protect my family is so low I should be worrying about the kids getting hit by lightning, which is far more likely. Oh wait, I taught them years ago to run AWAY from trees when a sudden storm hits despite their entire gym class huddling under a tree, so that's handled as well.

Do I NEED a sidearm in worlf country? Nope, but if I see one and have my son with me and a handful of nice brookies that they're interested in I would WANT one. See, it's that whole want vs need thing but in reverse. In this situation by the time I WANT one, I also NEED one. It's kind of like that word problem about the car leaving Denver heading west at 34mph and the car leaving LA heading north at 23mph that you could never solve in high school. Except its real in my case and involves the lives of my family. We will be solving for a worlf heading east toward our location while we send small hard projectiles heading west toward his location at about 1,200fps. Problem solved.

I think you still don't understand the problem, and that is the starting point for a meaningful discussion rather than the ending point as you are treating it.

DougM

[bigndn]

Originally Posted by KliersLC

Carrying a sidearm is a simple means of insurance. I will either protect my family or die trying. My odds are greatly improved when I have a firearm.

Dan

Well state, Dan. Hope everything's good for you and your family!

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

It's kind of like that word problem about the car leaving Denver heading west at 34mph and the car leaving LA heading north at 23mph that you could never solve in high school.

I think you still don't understand the problem, and that is the starting point for a meaningful discussion rather than the ending point as you are treating it.

DougM

As sick as it may sound, I always LIKED those problems.

I'm with you and Dan. I carry, because I MIGHT need it someday. I've had hundreds of encounters with wildlife and haven't had an issue YET, but since animals are unpredictable I'm prepared for the worst, yet hoping for the best.