Input on Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan?

[IdahoDoug]

I'm considering this gub for portable bear protection and have looked at them a couple times. Consensus at the gun shop seems to be the .454 is a lot higher ballistic against a big boned animal, but it's such a handful in this short barreled format that the .44 may be better overall. Meaning I get the impression that the 44 might allow you to get several well aimed shots off, where the .454 is so brutal in recoil you'll be lucky to get the sights back down for another shot.

So that's what the gun shop guys say. Anyone here fired both calibers by chance and have some input to this? I know our collective male hormones prevent us from admitting "yeah, I'm a solid shooter but that's too much kick", but a candid assessment would be very useful to me.

My thinking is get the .454 and learn to hit the target with it first time, as it delivers one hell of a wallop. I suspect that the actual situation of a real bear attack would favor my family greatly to have such a devastating first hit, but I don't know how realistic that is vs using a .44 and perhaps successfully hitting it 2-3 times of 6 shots. Dunno.

DougM

[Waorani]

Can't speak to the Alaskan but I do have a super redhawk in .454 Casull. Although a handfull, its not nearly as bad as a lot of the hype on it would have you believe. Plus, if you're really in a position to need use it - you'll never feel the recoil anyway.

[Pin_Head]

If you need to draw down on a bear, the recoil is the last thing you will worry about. I pulled one once on a black bear (yea, I know, but I was fishing with my 2 yo son). He crossed the creek and started following us back to the cruiser and I was waving that SRH around like Barney Fife with a fairy wand. The SRH is heavy, so the recoil isn't that bad. Practice a lot. My son is 18 years old now had he shoots it a lot.

[MARLIN375]

Doug, are you talking about protecting your family from a 200lb black bear or an 800lb grizzly bear?

(I'm sure you know where this is going but I had to ask?)

[Cruiserdrew]

While I have held the "Alaskan" in my hand several times, the handgun I take to Alaska every year is a .44mag Super Red hawk. I've had to pull it out and fire it once while in Alaska. At home, though, I've shot it a bunch, and despite the long barrel, I feel that given a bad situation, I could still land a shot or two. Last year we had a brown bear at close range stealing fish, and since we were not directly threatened, I did not even get it out. One past year we had two brown bears advancing toward us and I got the pistol out and fired a warning shot. One other year we were threatened very directly at close range and I didn't have a gun at all. I honestly thought we were goners. That wasn't good.

Advice-take something you are comfortable shooting. Practice realistic scenerios. In my experience, the brown bears don't ambush you, they just keep coming at you slowly, giving lots of time to draw a gun and fire it if needed. If you really want something effective, Alaska Fish and Game has statistics showing pepper spray results in fewer bear attacks than hand guns. Guns are more fun than pepper spray though.

[IdahoDoug]

I'm definitely a "worst case scenario" guy. Since I have carried a 9mm for 15 years and wanted to upgrade I skipped right over a 10mm, the 357 and landed on the 44. Gotta be a handgun, too. I feel myself trying to justify that the 44 will get the job done but things changed a little when I had both it and the 454 Casull version on the counter. Same price, same weight.

It's illogical, but I'm worried the 454 will be so freakin annoying to shoot that I will not enjoy shooting it and thus won't naturally reach a high proficiency with it like I have with the 9 - an incredibly enjoyable hole puncher.

Andrew - interesting comment about the way griz will pressure you like that and I've heard that analogy made before. Those are fishing on stream conditions, eh? They have dealt with hundreds of other fishermen like you, learned how to get the fish in the bright colored boxes, and the stream amounts to an open strip of clean land. My scenario is closed in brushy trails that are little used, so my likely is walking around a corner into a sudden charge. I guess that's kinda my answer. Maximum knockdown power at point blank range from a handgun. Hmmm.....

DougM

[mminter1973]

Keep in mind that with the 454 you can shoot .45 Colt rounds also which are very tame with cowboy ammo or you can buy + p rounds or load your own. I load .45 colt ammo to the same specs as .44mag with a 300gr piece of lead. It will drop a 300lb hog in its tracks.

[flintknapper]

In the terrain you describe...I certainly would not consider the .44 mag.

"Worst Case" scenario means you would be faced with a chance to get off (one to none) shots.

A bear charging from 50' (a long way) will likely be on you in about 2 seconds (no kidding). Even if you saw him/her first...and determined yourself to shoot, you would not get off 3-4 shots with ANYTHING (22,38,44,500....you pick). So...forget about controlled/well placed shots.

I believe you are correct to lean towards the most powerful sidearm (shooting the heaviest bullet) that you can.


If you are serious about purchasing a "task specific" weapon then I wouldn't consider anything less than the .454

Also, stay away from ultra short barrels (anything under 4")...as you will give up significant velocity/energy. Remember, you'll probably get off only one shot.

If it were me, (and finances allowed) I would opt for a 5" S&W 460.


They run about $300.00 more than the Alaskan, but would allow you to shoot: 45 long colt (for practice, small game), 454 Casull (Bear, etc), as well as S&W .460 (another level of power).

GunsAmerica - Connecting Gun Buyers to Gun Sellers Since 1997 - Guns For Sale & Gun Auctions

Consider the added weight and built in compensator... and you would have a fairly controllable weapon with 460 fodder.

45 LC would be like shooting 38 special, 454 Casull would be much more manageable too.

Heavy bullets designed to penetrate and break bone are what you need. Decide for yourself what you want to launch them out of, but my advice for Grizzly/Brown bear would be to stay away from the .44

Good luck choosing, and post pics when/if you get something.

Flint.

[Trunk Monkey]

With only a 2" barrel it's obvisouly a very short range weapon. I'd go for biggest wallop on the first shot. I've shot a standard Freedom Arms Casull and a Smith 44. The 454 had harder recoil, but it also had wooden grips.

[Waorani]

Of course you can always go to .50 BMG!

MySpaceTV Videos: .50 BMG pistol by Kyle

I think I see a S&W .460 in my future!

[SD_rdcruzer]

Just remember that no matter what you decide is the best for your situation,
file down the front site, so it wont hurt as much when the bear stuffs it up your a$$

[IdahoDoug]

Flint - nice rec on the 460V. Did some reading up on it. That's in the consideration set for sure. A chunk of change, to be sure.

DougM

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Flint - nice rec on the 460V. Did some reading up on it. That's in the consideration set for sure. A chunk of change, to be sure.
DougM

Both the Ruger Alaskan and the S&W .460 are going to set you back bit.

The Alaskan (new) runs about $700.00, the S&W (new) about $950.00

Personally, I'd watch for a nice used unit of either one. I can't help but think that lightly used pistols in either offering are available at substantial savings.

If you really like the short barrel of the Alaskan (I wouldn't), then the .460 is available with a 2-3/4" barrel as well.

Just be aware...you give up probably 150-200 fps using the short barreled version of either. Perceived recoil is increased too.

You can shoot .45 Long Colt out of the Alaskan (just like the S&W)....but if we compare "heavy" bullet weights available the Casull falls behind in factory offerings when compared to the .460. Plus ...you get the choice of shooting any of the three rounds with the Smith.

I'm just saying....while I think the .454 is a good round, I would rather have the .460 if I truly thought "One Shot" stood between me and a bear mauling.

Spend some time looking at the best penetration tests of both rounds and then decide which is most suitable for your purposes.

I will double check, but I believe I read one such test that showed a particular .460 load shooting 50" into wet paper (that is incredible).

I don't care how "pumped up" a bear was, he/she is gonna feel that!

Ideally, a reasonably placed shot on an attacking/threatening bear would "persuade" it to break off the encounter. I wouldn't expect ANY pistol cartridge to "drop" a large determined bear in it's tracks...unless you made a Central Nervous System hit, or broke major bones (spine, shoulder, pelvis).

The idea is not necessarily to kill the bear....but to make it stop its unwanted actions. You'll most likely have just one opportunity to this, so for my money....I'm going big!

[flintknapper]

Doug,

Here are some good "heavy" loads from Buffalo Bore Ammo.


Even the 45 LC can be loaded to equal .44 mag performance...and this is why I suggest you not consider the 44

Heavy .45 Colt +P:

Item 3A: 325 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. (1325 fps / M.E. 1267 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs.)

Item 3B: 300 gr. Speer J.F.N. (1325 fps / M.E. 1170 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs.)

Item 3C: 260 gr. J.H.P. (1450 fps / M.E. 1214 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 350 lbs.)


Then you have the 454...which Buffalo Bore (and most other manufacturers) will NOT load to max. pressures.

.454 Casull :

Item 7A: 325 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. (1525 fps /M.E. 1678 ft. lbs.) (Big game up to 2000 lbs.)

Item 7B: 300 gr. J.F.N.. (1550 fps / M.E. 1600 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 800 lbs.)

Item 7C: 360 gr. L.W.N.G.C. (1425 fps / M.E. 1623 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2000 lbs.)

The .454 Casull is one cartridge that BBA does not load to it's full pressure limit. When loaded to it's full pressure potential the .454 Casull can become unreliable and unpleasant to shoot. At upper pressure levels, heavy bullets tend to jump crimp - tying up the cylinder. (wouldn't this be great in an emergency) Also, fired brass can stick in the chambers. BBA feels that a 360 gr. bullet (or 325 gr. bullet at 1525 fps) at 1425 fps is still very powerful, comfortable to shoot, and TOTALLY RELIABLE. At these levels, these bullets give up nothing in killing performance.

Then last, the .460

460 S&W :

Item 26A/20: 300 gr. J.F.N. (2,060 fps / M.E. 2,826 ft. lbs.)

Item 26B/20: 360 gr. L.B.T. - L.F.N. (1900 fps / M.E. 2,860 ft. lbs.)

Above you have two offerings that churn up over 2800 ft. lbs. of energy. We are not told from what length barrel these figures were obtained, but suffice it to say "it outclasses the 454".

[IdahoDoug]

Wow. It's almost inconceivable to me that a bear could take a wallop like that into the body cavity missing bones and NOT have a CNS shutdown from the shock wave. I've read plenty of research that this kind of thing happens routinely with hunters, but it is just mind boggling to me.

Any idea what the ballistics of my 12g with a magnum deer load would look like? These are Remington Slugger 1oz Magnum Rifled Slugs - 2 3/4".

DougM

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Wow. It's almost inconceivable to me that a bear could take a wallop like that into the body cavity missing bones and NOT have a CNS shutdown from the shock wave. I've read plenty of research that this kind of thing happens routinely with hunters, but it is just mind boggling to me.

Any idea what the ballistics of my 12g with a magnum deer load would look like? These are Remington Slugger 1oz Magnum Rifled Slugs - 2 3/4".

DougM

Its not hard for me to imagine at all. Muzzle Energy is a “paper figure” and doesn’t mean squat in terms of “knock down power” if bullet construction is poor, penetration is poor, or shot placement is poor.

The 460 in the loads I listed generate ME similar to a 30.06

The regular .30-06 factory load for the 165 grain spitzer, gives a MV of 2,800 fps and ME of 2,872 ft. lbs

While the venerable 30.06 has taken its fair share of large bear….you won’t find many (if any) guides willing to use it as a “stopping gun” if anything larger is available.

Your 12 gauge comes in slightly behind the 460 (depending upon the load).

A MV of 1476 fps and ME of 2538 is about right for most 12 gauge 2 3/4" Magnum loads.

I’m just saying, if you really want something that has a good chance of “changing a bear’s mind” use at least a 454 (with 4” barrel) or go to the 460.

Black bears would not be a problem, even the largest of them are not particularly hard to kill. Grizzlies (or Browns) on the other hand…. can be pretty darn tough.

They don’t just attack humans for the fun of it. Most often…an attack is the result of surprising the animal. Either you walked up on a bear over a kill, or happened on a sow with cubs. Either way…you could be in deep doo-doo if you don’t have enough weapon.

I don’t know what mature males weigh in the area you are in, but I suspect 600-800 lbs. would not be out of the question.

Basically, the pics. below tell me all I need to know about selecting a pistol for protection against large bear. Go big as you can (meaning you can handle the weapon, afford it, etc).

[IdahoDoug]

Flint,

First off, I'm going to ignore those pictures because they scare the sh%t out of me. Dunno if you read of my double griz encounter (2 separate bears within 20 minutes) a couple years ago...

Anyhow, the comments on the 12g slug are encouraging because I feel like if it indeed hits harder than a .44 then I know I can also use 3" magnum slugs which come out at 1760fps which would put it better than the 460. I could not find ballistics for the 2 3/4 I have, so I'm using your 1476fps

I'm guessing that if I had a custom sling made for my 12g, I could put more slugs on target faster with it than with a high powered pistol. Or very close. I base this on having rapid fired my pump Mossburg from the hip many times over the years screwing around. Walking with my family, with the 12g hung in a way it could be brought up fast, I feel confident about that.

What do you think the 1760fps 1oz slug's ME would be? Any thoughts on a sling for a short barreled (18") shotgun that satisfies the ease of walking and fast access goal?

DougM

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by IdahoDoug

Flint,

First off, I'm going to ignore those pictures because they scare the sh%t out of me. Dunno if you read of my double griz encounter (2 separate bears within 20 minutes) a couple years ago...

Anyhow, the comments on the 12g slug are encouraging because I feel like if it indeed hits harder than a .44 then I know I can also use 3" magnum slugs which come out at 1760fps which would put it better than the 460. I could not find ballistics for the 2 3/4 I have, so I'm using your 1476fps

Quite a few guides in bear country like the shotgun/slug combination. A 12 ga. slug has a lot of frontal area (cross section) which means it will punch a big hole. Unfortunately, they don't have particularly good "Sectional Density" which means they won't penetrate as well as most rifle or pistol bullets, but they will definitely "light up" a bear with every hit.

I'm guessing that if I had a custom sling made for my 12g, I could put more slugs on target faster with it than with a high powered pistol.

I agree.

Or very close. I base this on having rapid fired my pump Mossburg from the hip many times over the years screwing around. Walking with my family, with the 12g hung in a way it could be brought up fast, I feel confident about that.

Depending upon age and experience, family members may be able to wield the shotgun too. Good to have everyone trained in what to do. Much harder to accomplish with a hard recoiling pistol.

What do you think the 1760fps 1oz slug's ME would be?

Without looking it up, I would guess it would approach 3000 ft. lbs.

Any thoughts on a sling for a short barreled (18") shotgun that satisfies the ease of walking and fast access goal?

There are lots of tactical items for shotguns (slings, barrel band sling mounts, sling mount for the stock, extended mag. tubes etc)

[Cruiserdrew]

One thing I should say about fishing up in Alaska, and daily concern/sighting/encounters with brown bears, is that 100% of the locals carry shotguns with slugs. The forest service guys carry shotguns with slugs. The Guides carry shotguns with slugs. The 1 game warden we met had a shotgun and slugs. Definitely a trend there! If they were easier to carry and transport up there, I would carry a shotgun with slugs. The short barrel Mossburg is perfect, but real Alaskans carry Remington 870s, as does the forest service.

Read up on the stats though, you would be way better off with some bear spray. Most of the locals carry that too. It is virtually 100% effective in terminating bear/human encounters without loss of life on either side. I'm taking bear spray and a .44 mag this year.

I hate the damn bears-they make me very uncomfortable, but actual attacks are rare. Only 1 time did I feel threatened and in danger(thank goodness it was a false charge). I am told the paperwork after shooting a brown bear will make you wish the bear had eaten you alive. Keep it in perspective.

[IdahoDoug]

Well, stopped to look at the 460 on the way home and ran into a grizzled veteran who had a lot to say to add to this topic. After I explained my shotgun vs hand cannon thinking, I asked him what he'd rather have in his hand with a threatening Grizzly. His Remington 12g which he has a 9 shot magazine mod on, full of 3" magnum slugs.

So, I left with a couple boxes of 3" slugs and he recommended I get a Blackhawk 2-point sling to carry it in the ready down position. That leaves my hands free to enjoy the hike, take pictures, or fish. Looked up the sling and it is $45 which I find quite reasonable. I already have a tactical light and mount for this gun for overnight camping readiness so now with a sling it is something I can carry in daytime more conveniently as well.

Good point about other family members being able to use the 12g, Flint. Hadn't thought about that but it's a very salient thought. We also have a large can of bear spray though I've never been quite sure what to think of using it suddenly without proper time to consider wind direction, etc. Dunno. I know where my bullets are going, but I'm not sure about a vapor and dropping my family to their knees if/when it blows back would be counterproductive. I know people speak highly of it, but it's usually people who don't own or want a gun. Or forest employees not allowed to carry a gun. Or studies funded by groups who like fuzzy cuddly bears and have headquarters in NY or Northern California.

Wonder if Idaho has such a paperwork ethos on animals. People here shoot predators routinely and it makes the papers as kind of a local interest story. Wolves, Cougars, Bears, Coyote. We're kinda short on PETA types around here. Alaska must have that policy due to the massive influx of nonresidents into their hyper-dense bear areas and the frequency of issues arising.

[MARLIN375]

Doug,
I am pleased that you are considering a long-arm for bear protection.

Personally I do not think "Bear protection" and "hand gun" should be used in the same sentence.

If faced with drawing down on a bear it is very impotant that the animal is disspatched as quickly as possible. A wounded bear instantly becomes everyones problem, and on a popular river there could be dozens of people at risk.

Another option is the guide model Marlin 45-70 with 510 grain solids. Very easy to point and quick to unload. This would be my choice as you can also hunt with it.

[IdahoDoug]

Yeah, I'm also pleased that Flint put the discussion where it truly belongs by listing various muzzle energies. It was a good reminder that even powerful handguns suffer compared to long guns simply because the bullet speed cannot get very high with a short barrel without wrist breaking acceleration. Will it be a pain to carry a long gun, and will it occasionally be awkward when non-gun types are around (versus a pistol hidden from view by a t-shirt)? Yep. But when you consider the part of this entire intention - having enough fire power to stop a bear - the shotgun continues to make sense. I wanted to avoid having to carry it now that some serious handgun calibers are available, but faced with the actual tradeoff in that context I'm again OK lugging it.

I appreciate the input on the Marlin, however since I don't hunt it would be a purchase of an item so similar to the role the Mossburg plays it wouldn't be worth it. That thing's gotta have some awesome ballistics with a 510g wallop!

DougM

[chukardog]

There simply is nothing better than a shotgun. the power they wield inside 50 yards is devastating with a capitol D. Slugs and heavy Buckshot? = very dead bear.

If you gotta carry something Smaller go S&W 500 Mag. very accurate and the recoil is a secondary concern.

[IdahoDoug]

The guy also mentioned 000 buckshot, which I've never seen before, and they didn't have any. Anyone comment on shoo