[PHBeerman]

I hate any high fence hunting. Another thing that irks me is dudes who hunt from a feeder.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by flintknapper

CWD spreading could be dependent upon many things. Too, I don't know if this has occurred to you, but if CWD were present in a herd "under" high fence, the fencing would tend to keep it out of the unrestricted herd. In that case... it would be a benefit. Similarly, the reverse would be true.

If you mean that "concentrating" animals increases the risk of CWD being spread....then I would tend to agree. But, the concentration of animals does not happen soley because of fencing. There are many reasons herds of elk or deer will stay in one area, there doesn't need to be a fence. Winter range in some areas will concentrate the animals, as will "feeding" them.

The spread of CWD is not entirely understood since the minimum incubation time to clinical illness is about 16 months. Latest research suggests that it is spread laterally (from animal to animal) by contact with blood or saliva. So, an animal grazing in the same Alfalfa field as another could contract it. Of course we wouldn't know for 16 months ( thus making it hard to say how it is spread).

Flint,

I have only one comment about your supposition that the high fences are a benefit when CWD is present. There have been documented cases of high fence elk that were carrying CWD being sold for wild release or escaping. Just this year an Idaho ranch had its herd escape. I have not heard of any CWD being found amongst them but they did escape and mix with the wild population. If I remember correctly the governor declared open season on the escaped elk. I have also watched motivated elk make big holes in "elk proof" fences in our orchards.

My position against high fence elk is based on the risk of spread of CWD to the wild population. Bow hunting for elk is more than just a passion for me; it is a part of living. I am not willing to support an activity that can potentially propagate CWD.

I also see the effects of concentrating animals in an area daily and not behind high fences. What I see, and it pisses me off, is local people feeding the blacktails. There is a very noticeable spread of chronic hair loss syndrome in these animals. It is so bad that ODFW will not allow any live "town" deer to be relocated into a wild population. I would be hesitant to even eat a town deer they look so bad.

I hunt and scout in wilderness areas as well as in some of the winter range. I can not say I have seen one case of CHL in the areas I hunt. Of course that is only my experience and not a true measure of its spread.

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Flint,

I have only one comment about your supposition that the high fences are a benefit when CWD is present. There have been documented cases of high fence elk that were carrying CWD being sold for wild release or escaping. Just this year an Idaho ranch had its herd escape. I have not heard of any CWD being found amongst them but they did escape and mix with the wild population. If I remember correctly the governor declared open season on the escaped elk. I have also watched motivated elk make big holes in "elk proof" fences in our orchards.

My position against high fence elk is based on the risk of spread of CWD to the wild population. Bow hunting for elk is more than just a passion for me; it is a part of living. I am not willing to support an activity that can potentially propagate CWD.

I also see the effects of concentrating animals in an area daily and not behind high fences. What I see, and it pisses me off, is local people feeding the blacktails. There is a very noticeable spread of chronic hair loss syndrome in these animals. It is so bad that ODFW will not allow any live "town" deer to be relocated into a wild population. I would be hesitant to even eat a town deer they look so bad.

I hunt and scout in wilderness areas as well as in some of the winter range. I can not say I have seen one case of CHL in the areas I hunt. Of course that is only my experience and not a true measure of its spread.

Do I understand you to mean that "high fencing" causes CWD? Are you saying that a large high fenced private ranch consisting of tens of thousands of acres is the same thing as an Elk Farm?

You seem to be saying that CWD doesn't exist in the "wild" population...and that high fenced animals are responsible for the cases noted.

ANY situation that concentrates Elk or Deer herds (wild or otherwise) increases the chance that CWD (if it exists in the herd) can be spread. CWD is not new, it has been documented for over 40 years. The problem is that the incubation period 16-30 months just doesn't let us recognize/respond to the problem in time to be of much help.

Currently, there are no live animal tests that can be conducted among a herd (free ranging or otherwise) to forewarn us.

How do you propose to keep free ranging elk from all browsing the same area? What about using the same wallow? We can't really stop bulls from fighting (close physical contact) either, now can we. All these things and more could spread the disease among free ranging herds.

Now, an Elk or Deer "farm" where animals are raised and fed in small area is a completely different matter.

Conditions such as that... provide the perfect opportunity for animals to infect one another. But, I don't see how that applies to a large private ranch.

In the end, we'll probably find that CWD ( transmissible spongiform encephalopathies TSEs) is basically something like Scrapies in sheep that we've been studying for 200 years...and that its the damn sheep who are responsible.

I just don't subscribe to the thought that "high fence" necessarily equals CWD or a giant bull elk tethered to a stake.

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by PHBeerman

I hate any high fence hunting. Another thing that irks me is dudes who hunt from a feeder.

Here is my perpective on "high fences" from about a year and half ago:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.p...t=high+fencing

[Fly Rod]

Nothing like discussions when there is little or no information available on the subject, the "high fence" ranch in this case. I am not concerned about fences causing cwd nor did I intend to imply they do. It is only the very high risk of cwd transmition among the contained population that concerns me. I am doubly concerned about the risk of escape of infected animals. In the wild transmittion of cwd will still occur but at a much lower rate than in captivity. If an infected population escapes then there is an unnatural concentration of cwd released in an area. That is the primary risk, an unnatural concentration of cwd in a wild population. That is unacceptable to me.

A 10 acre or 10,000 acre high fence ranch is still a high fence ranch. I choose not to hunt high fence and choose not to support high fence hunting for native species. I believe the only place non-native species should be is behind high fences.

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Nothing like discussions when there is little or no information available on the subject, the "high fence" ranch in this case. I am not concerned about fences causing cwd nor did I intend to imply they do. It is only the very high risk of cwd transmition among the contained population that concerns me. I am doubly concerned about the risk of escape of infected animals. In the wild transmittion of cwd will still occur but at a much lower rate than in captivity. If an infected population escapes then there is an unnatural concentration of cwd released in an area. That is the primary risk, an unnatural concentration of cwd in a wild population. That is unacceptable to me.

I agree that Elk and Deer "farms" should take measures to monitor their herds (and some do). It is from these sources that CWD is most likely to exist/spread. I think you would agree that large Private Ranches are not the same thing. I don't want to see the disease in ANY population of the herd (wild or otherwise).

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

A 10 acre or 10,000 acre high fence ranch is still a high fence ranch. I choose not to hunt high fence and choose not to support high fence hunting for native species. I believe the only place non-native species should be is behind high fences.

I suppose this will always be a topic for debate. No doubt, there is potential for abuse when utilizing High Fence on small parcels of land. IMO, that is what a "canned hunt" is. I openly condemn that practice wherever it takes place. But, I also fail to understand the fervor over hunting land that is often times measured in many square miles just because it has a perimeter fence.

To me, the size and layout of the property is what matters. Others will not consider any acreage at all.

If I put a perimeter fence along the boundaries of the State of Oregon...you would not hunt it?

This completely ignores the fact that vast majority of the wildlife of that state would have unimpeded mobility and live and die without ever laying eyes on a fence.

Elk need special consideration IMO, because their "home-range" is so large. That is not as true when considering Mule Deer or Whitetails in most areas. Still, "high fencing" is almost universally condemned by those living in Western states.

I think this is worth revisiting:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.p...t=high+fencing

[psfpilot]

If someone shoots a fenced animal on that property, it does not affect my hunting experience, so why should I impose my hunting standards on that individual who is hunting/shooting/harvesting on private property where the ungulates are detached from the public's population of prey?

If people want to shoot an animal under those conditions, why should it bother me? These days I get most of my meat from a steer that was fed in a crowded, fece covered pen, run down a chute, and thumped on the head in an inglorious death. My personal take is that the degree of "wildness" in the hunt should be left up to the hunter/consumer, who can choose to hunt on private land with varying degrees of human intervention, or on public lands with a lesser and more uniform degree of human intervention.

Call me libertarian, but I guess I just don't understand why I should be disgusted by someone else's choice of how they spend their time and money so long as it does not affect me.

[tglaser]

The experience of hunting differs by individual. Maybe you have a point Pilot.

But I'll echo what has been said earlier...for me the hunt ranks first and the kill second. If it were vice versa, maybe I'd hunt a high fenced place.

[JRFJ4-]

I have been hunting all my adult life in Alabama. Hunting with your buddies is great. Some of my best memories include hunting trips with friends.

But, I will be perfectly honest. It's pretty damn nice to get on a plane and fly to Texas and kill a nice deer.

I have never shot a deer inside a high fence. I've never had the money. I have shot several "nice" low fence deer in Texas.

You just can't compare Texas hunting (or private ranch) to real hunting situations at home.

Enjoy both for what they are.

JR

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by JRFJ4-

I have been hunting all my adult life in Alabama. Hunting with your buddies is great. Some of my best memories include hunting trips with friends.

But, I will be perfectly honest. It's pretty damn nice to get on a plane and fly to Texas and kill a nice deer.

I have never shot a deer inside a high fence. I've never had the money. I have shot several "nice" low fence deer in Texas.

You just can't compare Texas hunting (or private ranch) to real hunting situations at home.

Enjoy both for what they are.

JR

Well, now.....Texas is a pretty big state. Very little of it is under high fence. The little bit that is....is generally confined to South Texas and very large ranches. I can assure you "real hunting" exists all over the state. You have lumped one kind of hunting all together.

Where I live in Deep East Texas you wouldn't be able to tell if you were in Alabama or Texas if I blind folded you and just dropped you off. The terrain/habitat is identical.

We don't get to shoot a deer a day though!

[JRFJ4-]

I have only hunted in South Texas. This particular area has lots of high fences. Even low fence hunting down there is fantastic. Corn is a wonderful thing.

JR

[DallasFJ40]

I will say one thing about high fenced ranches. Many owners of high fenced ranches spend a lot of money to improve the habitat for deer and other game (not just a bunch of corn feeders spread around the ranch). The state will even subsidize some of th efforts if the owner adheres to certain practices. I have also seen many land owners who have spent the time and money to improve their land get 'robbed' by asshat neighbors who put up a blind right on the fence line. It would be difficult to prove, but don't tell me that someone willing to put a blind on a fence line would hesitate to shoot a buck on the other side.

However, does a high fence equate to 'ownership' of wildlife? Is it another theory of capture?

Personally, I am a bird hunter. Bird hunting is my passion. I will deer hunt, but it is more about getting out of town. I haven't shot a buck in 10 years. I have shot does for management/freezer purposes. Most of the time, I will go out and rattle or stalk, only to let the bucks come in to watch.

[IDave]

Well, obviously there's a difference between high fence hunting and high fence hunting. In an area that is small that would restrict animals which would normally migrate large distances seasonally or otherwise, even 25 square miles might be too restrictive. The elk I hunt migrate as much as 30 miles or more from summer to winter feeding areas, and do so practically overnight. But in an area where most animals are in one small spot year-round, maybe Texas deer, I see no problem. Of course, if it's a zoo cage sized enclosure, there's no hunting involved, and it can't possibly be fair chase. All of those situations fall under "high fence."

I would always be suspicious of high fence elk situation, however, because, as a rule, those animals travel a lot in their natural habitat.

[flintknapper]

Originally Posted by IDave

Well, obviously there's a difference between high fence hunting and high fence hunting. In an area that is small that would restrict animals which would normally migrate large distances seasonally or otherwise, even 25 square miles might be too restrictive. The elk I hunt migrate as much as 30 miles or more from summer to winter feeding areas, and do so practically overnight. But in an area where most animals are in one small spot year-round, maybe Texas deer, I see no problem. Of course, if it's a zoo cage sized enclosure, there's no hunting involved, and it can't possibly be fair chase. All of those situations fall under "high fence."

I would always be suspicious of high fence elk situation, however, because, as a rule, those animals travel a lot in their natural habitat.

Completely agree.

[CruisinMT]

I've hiked countless miles in the back country of Montana and have never seen anything that big. It's a nice bull but I would rather work for mine then have it handed to me on a platter.

[baloo]

High fence hunting is for people with man-hood problems...kinda like owning Heep.