[Mace]

Very..

Auto and atlas...do it once..

[chicago]

I was looking at the STAK from AA. Is that sort of the best of BOTH worlds if you were going to ONLY do ONE t case?
I just went out and measured the 2 drive trains (GORILLA MATH HERE)...stock 40 (minus the e brake drum total length was 63 in.
The whole shootin match of the Vortec (minus the mech fan), 4L60E, adapters etc was 75.5. A 12 to 13 in diff. in length.
In the current SUA set up that would leave me about a 6 in drive shaft (give or take an inch). SOOOO, theoretically speaking, for me to be able to run the PLANNED set up I would need to move the axle back and the motor set up a total of....lets say 15 in either way.
Would the SOA give me any added length to the shaft? I had done some very approximate measuring and if I moved the whole spring pack back so the hanger was off the bumper/ x member that would be around 7-8 in there.
I think it'll fit, but it WILL BE TIGHT, and Ill have to get creative.

K

[chicago]

Originally Posted by bustanutley

front dig is awesome, just sayin..

What's that mean?

[chicago]

Originally Posted by Mace

Very..

Auto and atlas...do it once..

Ive been hearing this "do it once" A LOT lately...

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by chicago

I was looking at the STAK from AA. Is that sort of the best of BOTH worlds if you were going to ONLY do ONE t case?
I just went out and measured the 2 drive trains (GORILLA MATH HERE)...stock 40 (minus the e brake drum total length was 63 in.
The whole shootin match of the Vortec (minus the mech fan), 4L60E, adapters etc was 75.5. A 12 to 13 in diff. in length.
In the current SUA set up that would leave me about a 6 in drive shaft (give or take an inch). SOOOO, theoretically speaking, for me to be able to run the PLANNED set up I would need to move the axle back and the motor set up a total of....lets say 15 in either way.
Would the SOA give me any added length to the shaft? I had done some very approximate measuring and if I moved the whole spring pack back so the hanger was off the bumper/ x member that would be around 7-8 in there.
I think it'll fit, but it WILL BE TIGHT, and Ill have to get creative.

K

Does that include the amount you will move the engine forward when you mount the V8?

[bustanutley]

Originally Posted by chicago

What's that mean?

[bustanutley]

My rear drive shaft isn't very happy and I have a very short drivetrain and a fairly long wheelbase. F/SM420/atlas clocked flat 103" wheelbase. I need to invest in an expensive CV, not looking forward to it.

[chicago]

Originally Posted by bustanutley

No pic?

[chicago]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

Does that include the amount you will move the engine forward when you mount the V8?

No.
However, there is about 3 in from the front of the 2F pulley to the face of the radiator. So I wont have much gain there either way. I measured both way off the vortec with the mech fan, and w/o.
It CAN work! Ill have to get creative w/ springs and such, but it can work.
There is also the option of chopping the rear frame and tub to accommodate stretching the WB. Im NOT opposed to that. Frankly, I would do that before I spend THOUSANDS more and prolong the down time to save up for the BLING stuff.
I suppose at this point, Ill just have to get the motor set and placed in the rig, then massage what I need for the rear shaft length.

[mookie]

Originally Posted by chicago

I was looking at the STAK from AA.
K

do some research on pirate, iirc there are a ton of people that have had problems with those and with their customer service....you can't go wrong with an atlas

[Mace]

I ran my long ass drivetrain in my 40 on leaves. It can easily be done amigo.

The reason you keep hearing "do it once" is because in the end, it will cost significantly more in the long run to get where you want to go. Trust me, I am a cheap ass bastard, I HATE spending the coin.. But it is necessary sometimes to get what you need done.

[Sputnik40]

Concur with the do it once. I was hesitant to spend the money on a proper rear axle for my needs, and committed to an Orion - I was already running FI, DUI, and an SM420 with a 4-speed case and 2.31 gears and pushing the limits of a stock axle. After mucho rear axle failures (including chromo shafts) - am now stuck having to find an offset solution - and will also have less clearance for my future 4-link.

If I had it to do over - I'd have gone with the Atlas and a hybrid mini or Dana 60.

I think you're a step ahead if you have funds for a v8 and an auto...

[chicago]

Originally Posted by Mace

I ran my long ass drivetrain in my 40 on leaves. It can easily be done amigo.

The reason you keep hearing "do it once" is because in the end, it will cost significantly more in the long run to get where you want to go. Trust me, I am a cheap ass bastard, I HATE spending the coin.. But it is necessary sometimes to get what you need done.

OKAY...this is not directed at anyone specific especially you Mace, and Im not trying to put anybody "off" by the following. Id just like to clarify where Im at with this build.

I know, and trust me I DO UNDERSTAND that "do it once" concept, however just like on my 62, there were things that I simply could not afford to do while it was the optimal time (when completely disassembled). I am running into the same situation here.
STILL a lot of money to spend to get it up and running and at least up to a point where the Blotch rig is at (only BETTER) and also without cutting major corners with safety and reliability.
It seems that every "do it once" idea also equates to literally THOUSANDS more dollars which takes me a LOOOONG TIME to save. The longer Im saving, the longer Im NOT WHEELING (which is ultimately the point, right). Now, with the above being taken into consideration is it better run with a decent set up that is ultimately NOT A BAD set up by any means (barring its INCONVENIENT LENGTH) and be able to wheel and change as necessary, OR put it on ice for what could actually be a year or two additionally before I can pay for the bling mods, NOT wheeling the whole time?
IMO, and my goal is to get her up, running and wheeling with what I have and upgrade as the need and funds arise. Now, that is not to say that Im opposed to spending a few hundred additional if it will be a bit easier or better with some tweaking AND will also work with what I have. That's fine. But, I DO still have more than a grand to spend JUST to get the rig running BEFORE I do anything else (SOA, shocks, brake lines, drive shafts etc.).
So to summarize....I do hear and understand what it is you gents are saying when you say "do it once". Im not ignoring the suggestions or not considering them. However, I CAN NOT do it all at once, and FOR ME...I think its a better option IF I CAN, to get the rig up and running and wheeling with the gear I have that is bought and paid for (barring the not too expensive ideas that may be easier and better), and comfortably save for BIG MONEY components later as I see the need.

Now, seriously...is there anything (besides the length) about the motor, trans and dual case set up that I have that is inherently flawed and Im not seeing? Is it a really BAD set up?
I know that the length is a big factor in a rig this short, but am I really heading for failure with it in this rig? If so, please let me know. Because Im not seeing the issue as such a big deal because I have the idea that I can cut the tub and frame PRN to get the DS to more of a comfortable length.

Thanks,



Keith

[rusty_tlc]

Originally Posted by chicago

OKAY...this is not directed at anyone specific especially you Mace, and Im not trying to put anybody "off" by the following. Id just like to clarify where Im at with this build.

I know, and trust me I DO UNDERSTAND that "do it once" concept, however just like on my 62, there were things that I simply could not afford to do while it was the optimal time (when completely disassembled). I am running into the same situation here.
STILL a lot of money to spend to get it up and running and at least up to a point where the Blotch rig is at (only BETTER) and also without cutting major corners with safety and reliability.
It seems that every "do it once" idea also equates to literally THOUSANDS more dollars which takes me a LOOOONG TIME to save. The longer Im saving, the longer Im NOT WHEELING (which is ultimately the point, right). Now, with the above being taken into consideration is it better run with a decent set up that is ultimately NOT A BAD set up by any means (barring its INCONVENIENT LENGTH) and be able to wheel and change as necessary, OR put it on ice for what could actually be a year or two additionally before I can pay for the bling mods, NOT wheeling the whole time?
IMO, and my goal is to get her up, running and wheeling with what I have and upgrade as the need and funds arise. Now, that is not to say that Im opposed to spending a few hundred additional if it will be a bit easier or better with some tweaking AND will also work with what I have. That's fine. But, I DO still have more than a grand to spend JUST to get the rig running BEFORE I do anything else (SOA, shocks, brake lines, drive shafts etc.).
So to summarize....I do hear and understand what it is you gents are saying when you say "do it once". Im not ignoring the suggestions or not considering them. However, I CAN NOT do it all at once, and FOR ME...I think its a better option IF I CAN, to get the rig up and running and wheeling with the gear I have that is bought and paid for (barring the not too expensive ideas that may be easier and better), and comfortably save for BIG MONEY components later as I see the need.

Now, seriously...is there anything (besides the length) about the motor, trans and dual case set up that I have that is inherently flawed and Im not seeing? Is it a really BAD set up?
I know that the length is a big factor in a rig this short, but am I really heading for failure with it in this rig? If so, please let me know. Because Im not seeing the issue as such a big deal because I have the idea that I can cut the tub and frame PRN to get the DS to more of a comfortable length.

Thanks,



Keith

We need to and talk.

[Cruiserdrew]

K-

I think your set-up is nearly ideal. Nice deep gears, heavy duty components etc. I'm just not sure it's the right one for an FJ40. Can you assemble your whole combination with adapters and drop it onto your frame just to see how it looks, and to make sure it fits before you start. You don't want to end up with your rear axle in a trailer to get enough rear driveline length. I certainly can't tell you if it will work or not, but I have driven a 40 for 10 years and they are short. Measure twice, weld once.


Check out this picture:



Photo from Jack Rice's excellent pic collection from his build.


This is essentially your set up length wise, except it's much SHORTER because of the SM465 where you would have an auto transmission.

Good luck, I'm looking forward to watching it come together.


edit-the 4l60e is 22 inches long, 10 inches longer than the SM465, and almost 12 inches longer than SM420, just sayin'

I'm a big fan of the SM420/SM465. Cheap, strong and short. Using one of them, the rest of it might just work.

[chicago]

Right!
that is all Im trying to do as well. Just see where its going to end up with some massaging. If it is something that is within reasonable grasp for me to accomplish without spending gobs more on, then Ill do it.

With the 4L60E to the 203 I was able to save some of the length by using the 6 to 4 bolt adapter. That 22 in I came up with was with the adapter in place and it replaces the stock tail housing. Then comes the 1in 700R adapter. Mounted flush to that is the 203 gear box (5.75 in) then the split case adapter which IIRC is 1.5 in thick and it too mates flush on both sides. Then the 19 spline split case which is 16.5 in long flange to flange. 46 3/4in long.

Here are a couple of pics of the trans and 203 mocked up.

Im not saying that it isnt a concern. Its long! However, its close to the point that it can work with some effort.

What is a stock rear 40 DS length? around 21 or 22 in flange to flange. I read somewhere that id want at least an 18 in drive shaft....So with the stock suspension set up that is in there, and roughly measuring and comparing that with the "new" drive train Im roughly 13 in from that 18 in DS length.
BUT... this is all theoretical until I can get it assembled and mocked into the rig.

Ill be pulling the tub and drive train soon. Then Ill clean the frame, stick the tub back on and mock up the motor set up. once Im happy with its position Ill then pull the tub again, free the rear end and get to work in seeing if it will all fit reasonably. In my estimation if I can make it work with the suspension spring under, that will give me an inch or two added length spring over.

It seems odd that the whole success of the set up hinges on ONE DRIVE SHAFT.

Keith

[chicago]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

K-

I think your set-up is nearly ideal. Nice deep gears, heavy duty components etc. I'm just not sure it's the right one for an FJ40. Can you assemble your whole combination with adapters and drop it onto your frame just to see how it looks, and to make sure it fits before you start. You don't want to end up with your rear axle in a trailer to get enough rear driveline length. I certainly can't tell you if it will work or not, but I have driven a 40 for 10 years and they are short. Measure twice, weld once.


Check out this picture:




Photo from Jack Rice's excellent pic collection from his build.


This is essentially your set up length wise, except it's much SHORTER because of the SM465 where you would have an auto transmission.

Good luck, I'm looking forward to watching it come together.


edit-the 4l60e is 22 inches long, 10 inches longer than the SM465, and almost 12 inches longer than SM420, just sayin'

I'm a big fan of the SM420/SM465. Cheap, strong and short. Using one of them, the rest of it might just work.

Looks like he had to splice his frame?

[Cruiserdrew]

On your rear drive shaft, the longer the better to lessen the angles.

You will almost certainly end up with a double cardan rear shaft anyway, and the double cardan joint itself is like 4 times longer than a standard U joint, so that takes even more length.

I have seen some coil-over linked set ups that put the axle under the tail gate. Maybe with something like that?

Could you use the FJ62's frame chop off the rear overhang, and extend the tub of the 40?

[chicago]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

On your rear drive shaft, the longer the better to lessen the angles.

You will almost certainly end up with a double cardan rear shaft anyway, and the double cardan joint itself is like 4 times longer than a standard U joint, so that takes even more length.

I have seen some coil-over linked set ups that put the axle under the tail gate. Maybe with something like that?

Could you use the FJ62's frame chop off the rear overhang, and extend the tub of the 40?

Wouldnt it just be easier to chop the 40 tub and frame and lengthen it?
Ill definitely need a DC rear shaft.

[spressomon]

Keith...just go get that 2nd mortgage and be done with it. You won't regret it until much later

[Mace]

I hear where you are coming from amigo. Just look at how much you will end up spending with your current components, take that cost and compare it to a atlas, If you were to sell the stuff that you currently have to offset the difference.

I wish I was there to sit at a sushi bar and go over options with you...

BTW, I went and measured the dual mini tcases in my 40. 39" from the engine to the output shaft.
That includes; bellhousing, sm420, adapter, minitcase, adapter, minitcase. behind a 2F, it is Loong.. And doable with leaves. ( I did it with FJ55 rear springs)

Bob with the AOD/203/splittcase is 43 or 44" from the BH to the rear output.

The 40's WB is ~ 106 or so. Bob's is too, here is a pic of the rear DS and suspension of bob. (no binding issues what so ever..)

[Mace]

BTW, I owed you a pic of the front, two piece driveshaft I have in Bob.

[Cruiserdrew]

You know, I have 76 frame in my back yard I am not using. If you want it to chop out pieces and extend your frame you can have it. I would be honored to have it go in your epic project. It is not really that rusty (less than the one you have) and might in the end, be useful to you. It still has the spring hangers, body mounts and stuff like that. You could even use it to mock up the drivetrain. Anyway, if you want it, just let me know.

I otherwise plan to cut it up and toss it.

[Mikesta]

Chicago... you could 4-link it Move your axle back a foot and you'd have more drive line. Just saying. I know you have the deep pockets and all.

[chicago]

Thanks boys.
I talked BRIEFLY with RustyTLC yesterday while I was working on my daughters 95 4runner (which I was really surprised to find out that it was a REAL PITA to work on).
He brought up some good points. Id like some additional opinions on this.
If I stretch the tub and frame, Ill be screwing myself for MINOR things like a kit roll cage and full soft tops etc. I can live with that, but....
Now, I have about 1500 into the 4L60E after the re build, then another 450 or so in the adapter and VSS/ reluctor. IMO Ill have a hard time trying to get back what I have into it BECAUSE the market sucks, annnnnnd I also had a 700R output shaft which also narrows the market to basically 4 wheelers ONLY who are doing Vortec conversions. ILL LOSE MONEY unless I hang tough on the price. Im considering trying to sell it and see what happens.
So, with that in mind (im asking for honest opinions here) should I sell the set up and is it worth taking the loss to switch gears on the build and go with an SM465/420? Id like to try and find a way to run the 203/ split case for the time being at least.
The next option is to just go ahead and 4 link the rear end (as Mike, Mace and Rusty suggested) which I know NOTHING about, so Ill have to do some research on how to do that and what it all means. It seems that may be the BEST way to get the DS length that Ill need comfortably.
My WB as she sits right now is 88.5 in (which I thought they were a bit longer). 104 in wb would put the center of the axel just behind the wheel well about 2in into the quarter panel.

What would you guyz do in my situation given the circumstance.
I was planning on selling the Blotch rig, but it seems that THIS build may take a LOT LONGER than I expected, and I DO NOT wanna be without a wheeler for that long.

Thanks for the help...Im in reality with you all now!
Thanks for hangin in there with me.

Keith

[Cruiserdrew]

So if you are willing to go with an SM465 get one with the 10 spline output. You will also need the 465 to 203 factory adapter. These are a little uncommon and were used only in 1974 by GM (possibly a few 73s and 75s). Keep a look out for one of these. I have this stuff, but I'm saving it for a future project. You can come down to my house and fondle the adapter if you like. I really like the 203 box and am looking for a recepient.

You will also need a new input gear for the 203-available for about $150 from Northwest.


OR...The SM465 could be adapted directly with a plate adapter to the Orion. See Treeroot's write up. This in my opinion would be your best and least expensive option, even if you do take a bit of a loss on the 4L60e.

If you went that route, your life would get pretty easy. Extend the WB with some wagon springs and call the suspension done. That would also avoid a ton of work/expense reworking the rear, and you could easily get this done in a few months.

I have heard from Luke of a mythical Reno wrecking yard with tons of GM trucks with minimal rust and parts in very good condition. They might have all the stuff you need.

[Mikesta]

Yes, I've heard that FJ55 Springs, reversed give you about 6" more wheelbase. That would be the cheapest way to move your axle back. Then when you want to do your Link you could easily do it in a stage approach.

[rusty_tlc]

I'd think the transmission mod would INCREASE the re-sale value. You would just need to market it in places like Pirate and the local Rock Crawler forums. Remember since it's not Toyota specific there is a big market out there. And I would think the drive train you have is a common set up for buggies. You might take a hit on it but long term it may wind up being cheaper to sell what you have and start over buying stuff. You can always put a pencil to it and figure out how much you need to sell the stuff for then throw it out there and see what happens.

Don't get me wrong I think it would be very cool to complete the project with what you have. But I'd also like to see you in a SWB trail rig before I get to senile to wheel with you.

[chicago]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

So if you are willing to go with an SM465 get one with the 10 spline output. You will also need the 465 to 203 factory adapter. These are a little uncommon and were used only in 1974 by GM (possibly a few 73s and 75s). Keep a look out for one of these. I have this stuff, but I'm saving it for a future project. You can come down to my house and fondle the adapter if you like. I really like the 203 box and am looking for a recepient.

You will also need a new input gear for the 203-available for about $150 from Northwest.


OR...The SM465 could be adapted directly with a plate adapter to the Orion. See Treeroot's write up. This in my opinion would be your best and least expensive option, even if you do take a bit of a loss on the 4L60e.

If you went that route, your life would get pretty easy. Extend the WB with some wagon springs and call the suspension done. That would also avoid a ton of work/expense reworking the rear, and you could easily get this done in a few months.

I have heard from Luke of a mythical Reno wrecking yard with tons of GM trucks with minimal rust and parts in very good condition. They might have all the stuff you need.

Alright...Ill throw the set up around and see what I can scrounge up. Ill need help setting up the manual too, so look forward to the questions on that when the time comes.
Just off the top of my head, does anyone know HOW the manual works with the Vortec computer, or what needs to be done to run that in lieu of the elec. trans?
The adapter for the BH is about 600 bucks to run the manual, so I can only assume that it HAS worked for others. What else will I need to run this thing? I read something about a slave cylinder...
I know NOTHING about manuals at this point in time.
There is a wrecking yard with some old chevy trucks. That is where I got the sag box and 63in springs from. They also had a wagonneer there with the rear springs on it....
What years am I looking for to get the SM465 out of? So there IS an adapter that will mate the 465 to the 203? What is northwestern?

Thanks for the info gents!

keith

[chicago]

Originally Posted by rusty_tlc

I'd think the transmission mod would INCREASE the re-sale value. You would just need to market it in places like Pirate and the local Rock Crawler forums. Remember since it's not Toyota specific there is a big market out there. And I would think the drive train you have is a common set up for buggies. You might take a hit on it but long term it may wind up being cheaper to sell what you have and start over buying stuff. You can always put a pencil to it and figure out how much you need to sell the stuff for then throw it out there and see what happens.

Don't get me wrong I think it would be very cool to complete the project with what you have. But I'd also like to see you in a SWB trail rig before I get to senile to wheel with you.

TOO LATE!