Mogs or Danas?

[DzlToy]

Orangefj45,

some good points there also. i was going under the assumption that a lot of people have toy axles already or can get them cheap or free. that will cut the cost down some. Also I believe that a 3.54 toy center section and RP is as strong or stronger than a ferd 9". JMHO

AFA custom housings and shafts, i think the owner was discussing that anyway. A stock housing could be used AFAIK and cut to length if too long. Custom shafts are available from many sources for toys and i dont think they would be much more if any to have a made to a different length.

good luck whatever you do and keep us posted....

[orangefj45]

yup, the stock housings can be narrowed. lots of them out there already cut down.

[cruiserrg]

Originally Posted by DzlToy

The portal ends have been broken on 404 series, i have seen pics and one in person in a comp buggy. Never seen a 416 axle broken anywhere, but you have to run 20" wheels and the axles are heavier and more $$$. Maybe a HD toy birf, like longfields, etc could be used somehow in a mog end for added strength. dont know of anyone making aftermarket mog birfields yet. You also reduce, by using a portal, stresses and loads on individual parts, where in a dana type axle, adding strength usually means adding weight to an already heavy axle. Mogs are not light for sure, disc brakes will shave a good bit of weight though. Custom Dana 60s or similar can be 5k each with some nice quality parts. of course you can build cheaper with stock parts, but then you lose some strength as well, just like in a toy axle...dont think you would need to put huge money in a mog axle to make it suit your needs...

Just have to refute a few things. Mogs don't have birfs, they use a double cardian joint in an open knuckle arrangement. To replace these with anything different would be crazy. You get a lot more steering angle with less stress on the individual u-joints. Even longs are weak in comparison, I haven't heard of a MOG ujoint or trunion failure. The 404 mogs that have broken are due to the protal housing cracking that I have seen. The big difference between 404 style and 406 style is that 404s use helical cut gears where 406 use straight cut gears. The 404s being helical cut add side stress to the portal case which can cause case failure in some conditions. There has been speculation that some of the failures is not swapping the gear boxes side to side in rear applications therefore causing the gear to run backward and side stress toward the outside of the box. There also was one caused by a tweaked housing. Not saying they don't break, but it is not as wide spread as one would think.

Weight of a MOG can be reduced by adding disc brakes, the drums on a MOG are over 16" in diameter and are really heavy. Hybrids are another way to reduce weight. Both of these options drive up the cost a lot, unless you can fabricate the parts yourself.

Best bang for the buck is to run MOGs stock, if you can get around fitting them under your rig as is.

[ridgerunner]

I vote mogs. (or volvos if you can get them.)

The 404 portal housings do break, but people have welded on a horse-shoe mount on them with success


Another problem you'll run into with the Mogs is the offset- Cruiser engines being where they are, you're better off with a passenger side diff. IIRC, Peter S. had Exact move his differential over for something like $600ca?

Some 404 pictures and the same argument on Pirate:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ght=horse+shoe

For the money, I'd take a set of Mogs with disks, welded horseshoes, and a moved diff any day over spicer. To build a D60 axle as strong as a Mog costs $$$$.

The only down side is you'll have to trailer the beast.

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by ridgerunner

I vote mogs. (or volvos if you can get them.)

The 404 portal housings do break, but people have welded on a horse-shoe mount on them with success


Another problem you'll run into with the Mogs is the offset- Cruiser engines being where they are, you're better off with a passenger side diff. IIRC, Peter S. had Exact move his differential over for something like $600ca?

Some 404 pictures and the same argument on Pirate:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ght=horse+shoe

For the money, I'd take a set of Mogs with disks, welded horseshoes, and a moved diff any day over spicer. To build a D60 axle as strong as a Mog costs $$$$.

The only down side is you'll have to trailer the beast.

Another downside is the fact that you might have to re-do the front frame provice clearance for the mogs if you want to keep the rig low. Mog axles would be the perfect candidate for a full tube chassis.

[ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by fj40charles

Another downside is the fact that you might have to re-do the front frame provice clearance for the mogs if you want to keep the rig low. Mog axles would be the perfect candidate for a full tube chassis.

These might be 401 or 411, but they're on a sprung under 40 series.

[Radd Cruisers]

Can you see those Heeps showing severe cruiser envy, not just cause it looks so much better but the fact its running them cool portals.........


You gotta admit a set of those portals installed in short time at a resonable price will perform like no other.

[HZJ60 Guy]

Mogs baby.

404's.





TB

[OnTheSpot]

I love that samuri...or do I just really want portals

[FJ40-GARAGE]

Originally Posted by OnTheSpot

I love that samuri...or do I just really want portals

Need more Frolics ?

Killeraxles.com

Front and rear axles are solid and of the portal type, meaning that the axle tube and differential are situated well above the centerline of the wheel. Hub reduction gears transmit the power down to the wheels. Portal axles allow tremendous ground clearance while maintaining a low center of gravity. The hub gears reduce stress and strain in the rest of the drivetrain, since maximum torque is reached only at the wheel itself!

[Dave E]

Has anyone ever developed portals for dana axels? I saw something a while back with a truck from africa with something like that I think.

Dave

[Radd Cruisers]

Originally Posted by OnTheSpot

I love that samuri...or do I just really want portals

If you like that just drop a Toyota Blizzard on top of those axles and which have very simular dimensions.

[Radd Cruisers]

Originally Posted by Dave E

Has anyone ever developed portals for dana axels? I saw something a while back with a truck from africa with something like that I think.

Dave

Not much advantage due to the strength of the mog centres.

My thoughs are to try and lighten the unit up using a custom 9 inch housing with the gears Jimbro is using to lighten up his the axles?

[FJ40-GARAGE]

Somewhere on a Unimog Graveyard in Eastern Europe How to get Axles for Free.wmv file

.......maybe some old Tchernobyl Mogs ......... they glow at Night

[Behemoth60]

Some dis-information in this thread. I'll clear up the error's where I have seen them...

Error: You need a new t-case becasue the mog's have the ring gear on the opposite side.
Truth: Indeed, the ring gear is on the opposite side of the pinion from normal, and the main axle shafts turn 'backwards', however the rotation is corrected in the portal. There are only 2 gears in the portal.. the gear on the axle shaft which is turning 'backwards', and the gear that the wheel is bolted to. Mog axles have standard rotations at the pinion.

Error: 404's have helical cut gears, and 406's have straight cut gears.
Truth: Early 406's also have helical cut gears. At some point (I don't know when) MB went to louder straight cut gears as the helical cuts put side loading on the portals and can cause them to break. For the record, if you have a rear steering axle, you need to swap the portals side to side so the helical gears are moving in the 'strong' direction when moving forward.

Error: you have to modify the frame to clear mog axles.
Truth: this is totally old school thinking. Most old timers build lift into the suspension. The portals provide 5" of lift. Instead of putting your lift in the suspension or body, take advantage of the 5: in the portals. In TippyR, I have a grand total of 6.5" of lift... 5 from the portals, and a 1.5" body lift. The axle tubes are in the same relative position to the frame as the factory deisgn. If it wasn't for the 4 links and air bags, I could run 38" tires on mog axles on a totally stock sprung under leaf spring suspension. Now, before anyone points out my hypocrosy, I'll admit I chopped the front of my frame and lifted it 4" to clear the air bags. But I did this for the air bags... the axle itself stays below the level of the old frame height.

Error: IFS Sucks
Truck: IFS is not preferred for rock crawling becasue one wheel does not force articulation to the opposite side. With better center ground clearance, and better % of sprung weight, IFS offers some significant offroad advantages. I am sitting on a design for an air/hydraulic system that would both force the articualtion that IFS lacks, as well as provide lateral stability (like an ant-sway bar, but it doesn't limit articulation). Not sure if it would be 'legal' in the rock crawling competitions because it might be considered an 'active' suspension.


Other things I can contribute:

- Changing the offset/axle length of a 404 axle is a major hassle as the 404 axles are double tubed, and have not flanges/tube joints. With the flange on the 406/416 axles, tube lengths can be changed relatively easily. Exaxt did indeed move my front diff 9" to the right for a LHS offset for about CAD$600.

- the only thing that will break will be the portal itself, or maybe the gears. It seems the both happen at the same time, no one is quite sure which gives out first. The tips of the gears get sheared off around about the same time that the portal itself splits open. Mind you, this usually only happens in competition rock crawling situations with 400HP and a WOT at the other end of a long driveline full of gear reduction. Regular wheelin shmoe's like me shouldn't have much to worry about.

Other advice... Rob, if you haven't already, you need to speak with Mac or Rob at Exaxt Axle. You're practically neighbours, and they will give you the entire straight poop on the realities of Mog Axles.

the bottom of my frame, t-case, and axles are all at about the same height... 22 inches of clearance. I vote for Mog axles.

Peter Straub

[woody]

thanks for clearing up the inaccuracies.

The other thread on the TT article may have answered a few of these things more accurately, and was a much more recent thread as well.

[Radd Cruisers]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

Wow. Lots of dis-information in this thread. Probably indicative of why I rarely come to mud. But, alas, someone told me there was a link to a good pirates thread on mog axles on this forum, so here I am.

I'll clear up the error's where I have seen them...

Error: You need a new t-case becasue the mog's have the ring gear on the opposite side.
Truth: Indeed, the ring gear is on the opposite side of the pinion from normal, and the main axle shafts turn 'backwards', however the rotation is corrected in the portal. There are only 2 gears in the portal.. the gear on the axle shaft which is turning 'backwards', and the gear that the wheel is bolted to. Mog axles have standard rotations at the pinion.

Error: 404's have helical cut gears, and 406's have straight cut gears.
Truth: Early 406's also have helical cut gears. At some point (I don't know when) MB went to louder straight cut gears as the helical cuts put side loading on the portals and can cause them to break. For the record, if you have a rear steering axle, you need to swap the portals side to side so the helical gears are moving in the 'strong' direction when moving forward.

Error: you have to modify the frame to clear mog axles.
Truth: this is totally old school thinking. Most old timers build lift into the suspension. The portals provide 5" of lift. Instead of putting your lift in the suspension or body, take advantage of the 5: in the portals. In TippyR, I have a grand total of 6.5" of lift... 5 from the portals, and a 1.5" body lift. The axle tubes are in the same relative position to the frame as the factory deisgn. If it wasn't for the 4 links and air bags, I could run 38" tires on mog axles on a totally stock sprung under leaf spring suspension. Now, before anyone points out my hypocrosy, I'll admit I chopped the front of my frame and lifted it 4" to clear the air bags. But I did this for the air bags... the axle itself stays below the level of the old frame height.

Error: IFS Sucks
Truck: IFS is not preferred for rock crawling becasue one wheel does not force articulation to the opposite side. With better center ground clearance, and better % of sprung weight, IFS offers some significant offroad advantages. I am sitting on a design for an air/hydraulic system that would both force the articualtion that IFS lacks, as well as provide lateral stability (like an ant-sway bar, but it doesn't limit articulation). Not sure if it would be 'legal' in the rock crawling competitions because it might be considered an 'active' suspension.


Other things I can contribute:

- Changing the offset/axle length of a 404 axle is a major hassle as the 404 axles are double tubed, and have not flanges/tube joints. With the flange on the 406/416 axles, tube lengths can be changed relatively easily. Exaxt did indeed move my front diff 9" to the right for a LHS offset for about CAD$600.

- the only thing that will break will be the portal itself, or maybe the gears. It seems the both happen at the same time, no one is quite sure which gives out first. The tips of the gears get sheared off around about the same time that the portal itself splits open. Mind you, this usually only happens in competition rock crawling situations with 400HP and a WOT at the other end of a long driveline full of gear reduction. Regular wheelin shmoe's like me shouldn't have much to worry about.

Other advice... Rob, if you haven't already, you need to speak with Mac or Rob at Exaxt Axle. You're practically neighbours, and they will give you the entire straight poop on the realities of Mog Axles.

the bottom of my frame, t-case, and axles are all at about the same height... 22 inches of clearance. I vote for Mog axles.

Peter Straub

Actually I have already spoken a few times with Rob and he is very informative.

I have seen a couple sets of his axles at a cruiser shop not far from here, well ex cruiser shop.

Rob and his partner last I heard were looking to sell the company, I think Rob may be in Alberta on a contract already.

Thanks for the information Peter.

[Eskimo]

GREAT post, Peter!! Thanks!

[concretejungle]

Thanks Peter for lowering yourself to our incorrect level and pointing out our flaws in this discussion.

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by concretejungle

Thanks Peter for lowering yourself to our incorrect level and pointing out our flaws in this discussion.

I've edit my post with the rude inferences about the ih8mud forum. It was arrogant and unecessarily provocative, and for that I am sorry.

Peter Straub

[cruiserrg]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

Some dis-information in this thread. I'll clear up the error's where I have seen them...

Error: 404's have helical cut gears, and 406's have straight cut gears.
Truth: Early 406's also have helical cut gears. At some point (I don't know when) MB went to louder straight cut gears as the helical cuts put side loading on the portals and can cause them to break. For the record, if you have a rear steering axle, you need to swap the portals side to side so the helical gears are moving in the 'strong' direction when moving forward.

- Changing the offset/axle length of a 404 axle is a major hassle as the 404 axles are double tubed, and have not flanges/tube joints. With the flange on the 406/416 axles, tube lengths can be changed relatively easily. Exaxt did indeed move my front diff 9" to the right for a LHS offset for about CAD$600.

- the only thing that will break will be the portal itself, or maybe the gears. It seems the both happen at the same time, no one is quite sure which gives out first. The tips of the gears get sheared off around about the same time that the portal itself splits open. Mind you, this usually only happens in competition rock crawling situations with 400HP and a WOT at the other end of a long driveline full of gear reduction. Regular wheelin shmoe's like me shouldn't have much to worry about.

the bottom of my frame, t-case, and axles are all at about the same height... 22 inches of clearance. I vote for Mog axles.

Peter Straub

Thanks for the post...

I wasn't aware there were older 406 models with heilical cut gear. Do you have a year or even vehicle code break?

Yes the 404's are double tubed, but most sellers of mog axles can do this for you (IIRC mine were $350 an axle to narrow the housings, plus the another $350 per custom inner axle...All done by Taradon). I have also read of guys narrowing their own, but I haven't done myself (yet).

There has also been breaking of the locker mechanisms (Dog clutch busting) in the 404 axles, which sometimes can take out the carrier and locker lever.

I agree the choise is mog axles. The thing everyone has to keep in mind is that there are going to be issues that need to be address with these. They are not a Bolt on deal to a cruiser. Mainly offset of the axles need addressing especially due to oil pan clearance and the front drivers offset of 3.5 inchs.

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by cruiserrg

I wasn't aware there were older 406 models with heilical cut gear. Do you have a year or even vehicle code break? .

Sorry, I have no such information. Most of the parts I can afford have been from drum brake axles, which makes them pre 1971. I do have one single spare portal that has straigh cut gears, and I am pretty sure that it has drums too.

Originally Posted by cruiserrg

Yes the 404's are double tubed, but most sellers of mog axles can do this for you (IIRC mine were $350 an axle to narrow the housings, plus the another $350 per custom inner axle...All done by Taradon).

Nothing's impossible. Just a matter of time and/or money. My 406 axle changes from Exaxt were $200 for the tube, and $200 for each axle shaft for a total of CAD$600. I thought that was a bargain since I don't have the jigs to get it straight, a TIG welder, or the equipment to heat treat axles.

There has also been breaking of the locker mechanisms (Dog clutch busting) in the 404 axles, which sometimes can take out the carrier and locker lever

The dog on the 406's is about the same size, based on the picture's I've seen. Is it a matter of pure torque that is breaking these, or driver's pulling the locker on while under power and the shock loading on the dog gear.

Originally Posted by cruiserrg

They are not a Bolt on deal to a cruiser. Mainly offset of the axles need addressing especially due to oil pan clearance and the front drivers offset of 3.5 inchs
.

There's always the unconventional... Depending on the mods to your cruiser, it may be easier to build new engine mounts and push the engine over to the passenger side, and go with a drivers side t-case like a ford 205.

Peter Straub

[concretejungle]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

I've edit my post with the rude inferences about the ih8mud forum. It was arrogant and unecessarily provocative, and for that I am sorry.

Peter Straub

It's all good. Just razzing you back a little.

[FLYINGLOW]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

- the only thing that will break will be the portal itself, or maybe the gears. It seems the both happen at the same time, no one is quite sure which gives out first. The tips of the gears get sheared off around about the same time that the portal itself splits open. Mind you, this usually only happens in competition rock crawling situations with 400HP and a WOT at the other end of a long driveline full of gear reduction. Regular wheelin shmoe's like me shouldn't have much to worry about.

http://www.nanaimosidewinders.com/im...s/DCP_0685.jpg

Hey Peter I don't know if you know this truck, but he has managed to bend an axle housing. Don't know how (well pretty good idea) but he has it all messed up. He was breaking the same parts all the time, and finally realised his axle tube was bent. He's not called Carnage Kenny for nothin. The axles were from EXACT I believe.

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by FLYINGLOW

http://www.nanaimosidewinders.com/im...s/DCP_0685.jpg

Hey Peter I don't know if you know this truck, but he has managed to bend an axle housing. Don't know how (well pretty good idea) but he has it all messed up. He was breaking the same parts all the time, and finally realised his axle tube was bent. He's not called Carnage Kenny for nothin. The axles were from EXACT I believe.

I know that truck... The Hulk, isn' t it? In fact, Rob from Exaxt built it and wheeled in in TTC 2 years ago before it ended up in Carnage Kenny's hands. I heard that he broke the axle by jumping the truck.

Peter Straub