how to build a one-ton 40?

[rusmannx]

what to look for?
something from the 80's in a local paper with a blown motor.
these types of things are not uncommon.

any one-ton years/makes/models to shy away from?
what have you tried?
what can you use? p/s, drivelines, oh... disks would be nice.
what about stuff with a big block? 454, 460, 440 mag?

lets get something rolling.

[hammerhead]

Wow...you left that wide open. Don't you have any preferences at all? Ford? Chevy? Right hand drop?

[rusmannx]

knew you'd be here to give me a hard time mr. head.

ok yes i do have a preference.

i would go with some chevy, D60, 14bolt, and hope to get a 454.
but i don't know what tcases and trans come with such. my dad is a ford man,
and i've never owned a chevy.

[fr8train]

Always loved Chevy. Though I work on everything. Go to this thread and compare every dana 60 http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/60_front ........ I dont really like the 14FF rear, the gearing just doesnt get low enough for me. I am running a Dana 70HD rear for my blazer project and can get down to 7.17 gears. Though the size of case and weight may offset this, its a whole different ball game with a fullsizer. Though on topic, I would stick Chevy due to the massive array of parts avail now for the Dana 60 front. I also follow this mantra, "Hi or low pinion it gonna get whacked anyway. Just make sure you can swap parts with someone to get yourself limped home."

[hammerhead]

Since you want a D-60 front axle here is some reading for you to help in making some decisions.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...ont/index.html

For the rear it sounds like you know what you want. You'll find 14 bolts in about any junkyard or under most any 3/4 ton chev from the 70s. I just did an eight-lug axle swap a few months back and pulled the 14 from a '74.

From the same truck I pulled an NP205 T-case which was combined with an NP203 range box from another '70s chev.

For the big-block I don't know what to tell you. I hate Rat motors and other than a direct replacement won't have anything to do with them.

[AZFJ]

...My set op..D60 front cut down 4.5" with a spool..C&C 14 bolt..Welded carrier..Stock front springs fliped..rear FJ55 springs...SM420 trans mated toa twinsticked D300...

or you could stick with the 465/205 combo..super strong!!

..I have actually found a 80's Chevy one ton in a boneyard with a smallblock..and 4:56 gears!!..Hot set up if you bought the whole truck!..

..On the steering..About the only ones to go with is the Chevy or Scout box..personal preference!..Search in the tech here..Most answers could be found!

[HI^C]

Well lets see,

14 bolt truck is 67" wms
" " cab and chassis is 63" wms
" " van is 68" wms

later 14b have extra ribbing on the third.

chevy 60f is 69" wms
dodge 60f is 67.5 ish wms
**** wrong fn side.

chevy 60f through '91
dodge 60f through '93
later none neckdown inner shafts are desired,
dont know what yrs the switched in none neckdowns.
i have a 85 chevy that is none neckdown, a 77 chevy that is.

chevy 4.56s are an option, 5.13s are also but never seen a 4x4 with them factory.
5.13s are currently the lowest available for the 14b but rumors say someone is working to
build lower sets.

5.13 are just about perfect for the 38ish to 44ish tire range and none od, for the drive on the street, v8 also. IMO anything that cannot get out of its own way, or faster then a golf cart, doesnt need a body or title so buggy the thing. 7.17 lmao, maybe if you have a 4 cyl.

http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm
some good trans and yr info. I can answer more specific questions.
chevy '80 changed to a slip yoke rear output on the 205
and started using the 208 transfer(junk).

later axles, early trans and transfer, or swap and sell to get
what you need.

azfj ended up about 3"s wider then my buddies full width chevy 60f running 20x10 6" backspacing and 44x14.50 wide tires. Lot less work and $$$ to outboard the springs then to cut. IMO pointless if you going to be that wide anyways.

what are they asking for that 1 ton? hit me offline.

Need more help let me know. i have about every chevy drivetrain setup, and have mass amount on measurement numbers on them. also have a BBC that will be for sale soon.

[Mace]

Reasons it is not pointless to outboard the springs instead of cut down the axle side..

1. With 6" of backspacing you cannot use the stock D60 steering setup. You ARE going to have to go some sort of hy steer system. Which is a lot harder on your knuckles, bearings, kingpins, etc...

2. With 6" of backspacing you will rub your springs.. A lot..

It all depends on how wide you want to go.
Narrowing the axle housing means custom inners. That sucks.
Not narrowing the housing and using leaf springs sucks.

[HI^C]

interesting since the above mentioned could run stock tie rod, and only was adjusted in just slightly from axle u joint bind and did not hit the springs, with 44" tires. granted it did run 20" rims. why would you run a stock tierod? i guess if you carried spares. how do you run a draglink, SOA, and stock tierod?

labor and materials of outboarding the springs is about halfish the costs of just the inner shaft. if you can weld, then it costs like $40 in material.

the thing is why endup with same/close to the same overall width as running a none cut axle?

i have looked at cutting to staying well under 80" like 75" i think was what i was lookin at.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by HI^C

interesting since the above mentioned could run stock tie rod, and only was adjusted in just slightly from axle u joint bind and did not hit the springs, with 44" tires. granted it did run 20" rims. why would you run a stock tierod? i guess if you carried spares. how do you run a draglink, SOA, and stock tierod?

labor and materials of outboarding the springs is about halfish the costs of just the inner shaft. if you can weld, then it costs like $40 in material.

the thing is why endup with same/close to the same overall width as running a none cut axle?

i have looked at cutting to staying well under 80" like 75" i think was what i was lookin at.

Okay, so how wide is your firend?

And if you could would you post pics? I really would like to see the truck.

Why run a stock Tie rod?
#1 it is cheaper.
#2 if you have a sagged out suspension there is potential for the TR/DL to smack the frame at compression. And potential for the TR DL to hit the springs if you try to avoid the frame issue.
#3 as I said before, the king pin system is not designed to run a hy steer system. Prehaps it is the plastic bushing on the top that is adjusted with a heavy duty spring. when you go hy steer you open yourself up to many more problems.
#4 what is wrong with the stock Tie rod? 1.25" barstock is fairly beefy.. It will take some hits.. And if you add a Ram assist you are making the TR even stronger.
#5 your buddy on 44's and 20's probably has enough clearance inside of the rim to make up for the backspacing. So I was certianly wrong there. However, with 15's, 16's, 16.5's and 17's you are going to have trouble. course, switching to 28's would make even more room..

I did not cut my front 60. But I am also running coilovers in the front.
If I was going to keep the leaf springs I would do exactly what AZ did. It is MUCH easier to find rims/tires..

[HI^C]

well i think he is a 34" waist or so, never noticed. lol J/J.

the truck mentioned, a 85 runner was 81" overall width in the front, more air in the tires it could be smaller. had a whole fendered trailer bit so i know and double checked with the buddy earlier. Now the truck is temp. sitting on 40"mtrs on 17x? (off the shelf alum mags, to move it around on) and measures 84" overall, i checked it today for fun. I have two large crappy pics personally, and can get more of it on the 44s from its owner. Send me a PM or email with email for the large pics, and i will see about getting the others. i can get rims pics, vehicle pics as it sits now, but the tires got put on a show truck.

#1 well new priced just pulled from my parts store shows $106 and $38 (moog parts) for the tie rod ends, not including adjuster sleeve, free. I paid about $150 for complete tierod and a draglink loaded to custom specs, heims, angle spacers, etc... granted not everyone wants heims, but even running 3/4 ton rod ends is cheaper.

#2 agreed, but before even all that, how do you mount the draglink? stock there is no provisions for a draglink to attach to knuckle in a crossover style, nor able to connect draglink to the tierod in a Y style steering. I really dont want to hear fliping it running a draglink to the old shock mounting hole. beyond how it is mounted will this even work on a cruiser using cruiser springs? back to the flat springs.

#3 i disagree, IMO kingpin is actually setup better to run a hysteer setup then all other axle types. the plastic bushing allows huge amount of adjustability, a very very simple easy to fix when it wears, cheap arms as no need for precise bearing surfaces. There are kits to change the plastic bushing to a steel version, and a few that change it out to a preloaded bearing style also. factory setup with the high knuckle steering. I agree it does place pressure on the knuckles but really it is factory made that way, bigger tires do also. hy steer and clearence problems will be a case by case problem, but i think in general very few will have problems on a crusier, also different arms cause different problems. frame clearence maybe.

#4 1.25 bar is nice and beefy, but with a shock mount hole, it being attached to none replaceable rod end, an adjusting sleeve, and costing $106 from above, it seems not to be a very cost effective way nor as strong as it could be. its placement in harms way also lends another reason maybe why few like them. anyone make tie rod armor? now budget building, you got a free, good ends, straight tie rod (please note must meet all criteria) then by all means use it, but strongly suggest come replacing that you look into hysteer or at the very least a beefier tie rod. ram assist while giveing another mounting point along the tie rod if mounted so, lend little to its strength but due to its mounting usually not in perfect parallel with the tie rod, causes a great deal of force against the tie rod, can cause premature wear or failure. HA on hy steer arms or made as a single arm is a better, more desirable. IMO. few here have good luck with 1.5 bar stock, bore and tapped for large heims, and HA on it, but run it on the stock position and run a hysteer arm for the crossover.

#5 20s are not blings, they are double beadlocks. LOL. they have the ability to be 6" or 4" backspacing. even with the 4" backspacing and same tires the 81" now is 85". this allows ample room with any rim and 4" backspacing to run a stock tierod. 4 or more backspacing on a 10 wide rim is pretty damn common. Costs on just about any beadlock wheel would be pretty equal to what a custom beadlock wheel could cost. there are cheaper ways also. I believe a 17 say 5.5 bs will clear stock rod ends, and 17 6 bs should still fit without hitting the knuckle, i think, i have to double check soon anyways for new rims.

like i said off the shelf rims and tires on the full width on the runner is 84" as it sits right now, why cut and end up with the same width, unless it was desired? then i guess i dont understand the trouble of cutting just to not outboard the springs which would be $$$$ affective.

All this and i havent even really talked about what WMS you could end up with a dodge housing and cutting it or not.

damn way too much in one post.

[Niner]

AZFJ,
Is there a reason you run the Iroks on the front of your cruiser Backwards?

[Mace]

One more thing about lots of Backspacing, Your hubs tend to stick out a lot and can be dameged easily.

I have a broken Warn on my front D60 right now that needs replacement. Broke the first time out..

[AZFJ]

Originally Posted by Niner

AZFJ,
Is there a reason you run the Iroks on the front of your cruiser Backwards?

..nope..didnt even check!..Just mocking up things..Everything has to come back off to finish brakes..steering ..shocks..bumpstops..wrap bar..and so on..and so on..and so on!!...

.............I just couldnt wait to see what it would look like!!!...~Clint~

[rusmannx]

ok, back to one tons drivetrains.

so if i find something like a 77-85 chevy 1-ton i could use the whole thing?
i'm curios because i see stuff like this a lot, and i don't want to get an 83 and
have someone tell me 2 days later that everything before 84 sucks.

[AZFJ]

Just go on what size tire you want to run..If you stay with 37"s or smaller..1 tons may not be for you!....You lose lots of ground clearence and beefed up stock axles will handle it just fine!...

[AZFJ]

Originally Posted by HI^C

azfj ended up about 3"s wider then my buddies full width chevy 60f running 20x10 6" backspacing and 44x14.50 wide tires. Lot less work and $$$ to outboard the springs then to cut. IMO pointless if you going to be that wide anyways.

...


Less??..Cut off outer C..have the tube machined out..Weld back on outer C..Send shaft to Moser....Weld on one spring perch....Done!..Wheels are alot cheaper..Custom BS can cost some serious coin...My hubs are proteted too.....I can always bolt on stock axles to sell Cruiser easier..You know..When its time to go buggy..lol...

[Mace]

Originally Posted by rusmannx

ok, back to one tons drivetrains.

so if i find something like a 77-85 chevy 1-ton i could use the whole thing?
i'm curios because i see stuff like this a lot, and i don't want to get an 83 and
have someone tell me 2 days later that everything before 84 sucks.

Again it all depends on what you want. Some of the 454/auto combo's are VERY long.

Are you planning on moving the rear axle back quite a bit?

personaly I would buy as new as I could. The motor/axles will be better and trannies/tcases are the easiest things in the world to find.

Are you thinking that you will get a FI motor?

[HI^C]

here is more info then you ever really wanted to know, LOL.

33.5" f engine
28" 7MGTE
25.5" 350
I dont have BBC measurement but have one to measure when i get to it.

6.5" conversion bell downey GM to lc4 speed
chevy bell is 6 3/8

24.37" TH400
21.75" th350
23.4" 700r4/early 4l60e
21.9" late 4l60e
26" 4l80

12" lc 4 speed
10.5" sm420
12" sm465
10.7" np435
18.9" nv4500

3.25 700r4 to 208
6.75 465 to 205
3.5 350 to 205
4.25 465 to 203
4.25ish 400 to 205
1.75 early AA adapter th350 to LC case, close to the short downey one now.

11" face of lc 4 speed case to center of yoke about 1.5 off that for flange
12.25 face to center yoke 205 no adapters
will not post slip yoke, and POS 208 numbers.
5.75 for 203 range box only

some misc doubler numbers

47.5" NV4500, np203, np205
44.75" Sm465, np203, np205
52.25"/56.375" TRII, SM465, np203, np205
46.85"/49.35"/50.35" T400, np203, np205

about 98% of above measurements are my own done on my own parts, close enough for mocking.

All adapters and transfercase mearsurements are the old style, PRE chevy change to the round transfer bolt pattern which are longer then the old/hour glass mounting. I strongly suggest staying way from the round transfercases and putting in cruisers, but good for resale to purchase other items.

[HI^C]

i would also stay away from alum cased transfercases.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge...on_gateway.htm
have some info on the YRS on some of the trans. later yrs have more
electronics on the auto trans 4l60 and 4l80, and are costly to use in most cases.

at no time where these hubs sticking out.

less, at last check moser charged $80 ish just to open any package from you to look at it.
$40 is so rough for out boarding materials me being generous, i think i might have $30 in materials including new bolts, shackle material, and mount material. you have to weld so there is a good bit more welding with the outboard but say even if you had $50 in materials/ beer it still is cheaper then resplining a shaft, you could buy new custom which imo is a good way but way more $$$$. I say one could do a outboard setup in say a 8ish hr day, too many variables.

was there no press fit? machined too much?

rims beadlocks in general costs close/round about the same price, these happend to be double beadlocks costs exact same no matter 2" bs or 4" bs. Then off the shelf alum have a 4.5 bs on a 9 wide rim (i checked today) still measure 84" and not custom of any sort.

I have some more pics, and working on the rest of them, send me an email.

[Mace]

I agree on the Al tcases. Unless of course it is an atlas.

A front D60 hub with Warn hubs sticks out. A lot. with 39.5" Irok's and ~5ish" of backspacing I whack mine on rocks. Even doing simple wheeling.

Hi, I honestly believe that a mini on 44's is not really a good truck to compare a 40 to. Most 40;s use springs that are very flat. For a mini to fir 44's you are talking about moving the axle forward a bunch, and gining it a TON of lift. Or removing part of the hood for the tires to not rub

BTW, I assume that the rims were stazworks. Who makes a 44x14.50 tire?


Again, I think buy as new as possible and sell the tranny/tcase and get something simpler

from what I understand most gm trucks use a PS box that is identical to the standars Saginaw but mounts on the outside of the frame. I have looked at one for comparison but think that it would not be the cleanest install. All of the AC system will work except for the in cab portions.
You can make just about ANY motor fit in a 40 with a bit of massaging. It all depends on how wild you want to go..
Rear driveline would probably work but would be HUGE. typically trucks use a bigger diameter DL than 40's do. Which is good for strength but bad for rocks. Front driveline is a tossup. I have the impression that the front DL would get in the way of the tranny.
Additionaly the front 60 typically has a 1310 U joint flange. I would upgrade that while you are at it.

[HI^C]

$$$$$$ for atlas, highly questionable strength, IMO i am not sold on one, especially in a full body rig with weight.

i was never comparing a mini to a 40, you asked specifics of the vehicle then i said it was a mini. I was just discussing overall width period, the mini numbers where handy at the time, i didnt feel like use my dually tow rig measurements, nor slap up some tires on one of the 60f axles laying here.
While talking mini, i dont think it is as tall as my DD 40 soa with hardtop, i do know it fit in the garage with the 44s on it. NOT trimmed at all yet. approx 8in lift on the mini, axle moved forward some but mostly for extended wheelbase. enough about the runner but i do have some pics.

its actually a 43+ in tall tire 13.5r20 michelin xl

back to the thread.

all chevy kingpin 60f are the same basically, there are early neckdown inner shafts, later none neckdown shafts, I am asking few others to help layout an exact yr they changed the shafts. There might be slight differences in the inner shaft lengths? All yr 14b 10.5" are the same (not a eaton) later have more ribs on the housing.

d60f dodge is share the same parts with the chevy only the housing length and inner shafts lengths are different. early dodge have bolt on flanges rather then internal splined hubs.
d61f share the same outers with the d60f but inside are not suppose to work (i was told).

I suggest researching exact engine, trans, transfer, 60f and 14b are a given with a SRW 1 ton chevy, that you want. buying a vehicle that has everything you need, or able to sell parts to purchase the parts you want, trade, etc.... For BBC injected look into boat motors, for possible cheap source. another buddy just bought a 81 1ton 454 th400 np205 60, 14 for $1000, running and driving. Good deals to be had, and possible money to be made.

[AZFJ]

Originally Posted by HI^C

less, at last check moser charged $80 ish just to open any package from you to look at it.
$40 is so rough for out boarding materials me being generous, i think i might have $30 in materials including new bolts, shackle material, and mount material. you have to weld so there is a good bit more welding with the outboard but say even if you had $50 in materials/ beer it still is cheaper then resplining a shaft, you could buy new custom which imo is a good way but way more $$$$. I say one could do a outboard setup in say a 8ish hr day, too many variables.

was there no press fit? machined too much?

rims beadlocks in general costs close/round about the same price, these happend to be double beadlocks costs exact same no matter 2" bs or 4" bs. Then off the shelf alum have a 4.5 bs on a 9 wide rim (i checked today) still measure 84" and not custom of any sort.

I have some more pics, and working on the rest of them, send me an email.

..Well to each his own!!..If you have some fabbing skills..Havnt bought wheels yet..Outboarding can be a way to go..I already had the wheels and tires I was going to run..Knew how wide I wanted to be..Cutting her down was the only way to go!

Moser charges $55 to cut and respline plus the shipping..I think I have about $80 all together in the shaft..I already knew my set up worked well..So..I didnt want to mess with it!..Yep..Knuckle had to be pressed on..not too tough...It doesnt have to be perfect..I dont think it is..Weld the crap out of it...done..anyway...There you go..figure out which one is the way to go and do it..IT'S ONLY MONEY!!..Right?

[HI^C]

your right to each his own LOL. If your happy then that is all that matters.

$55 wonder if they came down with the pricing, might have a few items to go to them.

press fit is what centers/aligns it on the housing. caster angle setting can be fun.

Word back from one d60 source chevys change around 81 to 83 with shaft change.
but, used inners can be had $100 or under for the none neckdowns.

[treerootCO]

I ordered this brochure and it looks like it wouldn't take much to make a 1 ton Cruiser