Family haulin'

[1974FJ]

Originally Posted by paulwolf350

Why?
cant you dump it?

Paul

Why dump it when you can burn it, diesel isn't cheap. That 4bt wont have any problems burning that nor will it harm the engine if used correctly

[89s rule]

Any updates on the trip?

[boots4]

Originally Posted by 89s rule

Any updates on the trip?

There will definitely be a write-up since the day we choose to travel broke several records in several places for the hottest day!

Teaser: In the 100's having to run the heater to stablize engine temps, it was super hot in the cab. Popped the upper radiator hose and puked out all my coolant on a steep climb. Had to keep a towel over the tranny tunnel near the gas pedal to keep from burning the feet. I wanted to test it and boy did I get a chance!

I worked on a couple of essential projects while in Cali to make the trip going back easier and we'll be taking off tomorrow and stopping in Medford, OR for the night and showing up in Portland on tuesday. Trip back weather looks to be raining and high temps in the low 70s. I think the "A/C" will work much better (windows open).

[CreeperSleeper]

Holy crap!

If you wife did not make you trade that thing in, she must be just as patient as mine! Can't wait to read the trip report.

[boots4]

Well an update is overdue so I better get on it before I forget any of the details. These are going to be a couple of long posts so hang in there.

I'm not quite satisfied with my tranny yet so I fiddled some more. I found that the regulator would work just fine with 30 inches going to it and the Ford vacuum pump puts out about 30 inches of vacuum at 12v. Well the thing I overlooked was that it wasn't getting 12v when the engine was running, it was getting 14.40 due to the charging system so the pump was putting out closer to 45 inches. Either I could regulate the vacuum going to the regulator or regulate the voltage going to the pump, the second is the cheaper option. RadioShack has a little shunt voltage regulator that is rated for 12v DC at 1 Amp. I was worried the pump was going to suck more than an amp and went to several stores around town trying to see if anyone had something stronger than 1 Amp. I had no luck anywhere and the only thing I could come up with was to get an older automotive voltage regulator and figure out the wiring. Luckily I didn't buy anything because when I finally tested the pump for amps I got less than .5 amps starting it up and having it cycle. I bought the RadioShack regulator ($1.59) and wired it in. I'm not a wiz with the soldering iron and a kind co-worker had electronic military experience and she did the fine work in less than 5 mins.

Voltage goes in and is bled off through the ground if too much and voltage goes out at 12v. I tested it once hooked up and got a steady 12v.



It didn't satisfy my expections but it did help. The problem is sluggishness in 1st and 2nd and hesitation when cold and it pretty much has to do with getting the right line pressure. I think the vacuum pump has a small reserve that might be affecting how much goes out to the regulator so I'll continue experimenting with this until I get it were I want it. This is part of being a guinea pig.


We loaded up the trailer the night before and when I got home from work we hooked it up and took off for Medford. It was night time and the temps were cool so I didn't run into any problems with tranny temp or engine temp. It was also the first time the has actually driven the cruiser since it's been back on the road and thanks to her beater car experiences in the past she adapted well.

The gauges I really kept my eye on were tranny temp, engine temp, and pyro. On the hills I pushed it until I hit 1200F on the pyro and kept it at that when climbing. Tranny temp never got above 170F on the first leg. It was the next day that would really test the limits.

Medford, OR forcast was sunny and 100+F. California was pretty much 100+ everywhere and 104 in the valley we were ending up. Several records were broken for being the hottest day ever in May. Knowing that we got on the road by 8:30am (not too bad with two young kids) and headed towards the tallest pass on I-5. We were pulling up the hill and the engine temp was up at 230F and climbing when about 1 mile from the top the upper radiator hose separated (it's two pieces I have coupled in the middle) causing a big puff of steam and the engine puked out all it's coolant. I had to drive just a little further so I could pull off the road since the paved right shoulder was used for slow trucks pulling in low gears up the hill. Engine temp jumped to 260F by the time I got the engine turned off and pegged my gauge (max reading is 280F) sitting from heat-soak. I got out and popped the hood to find out that the upper hoses were fine but that it had just separated. I got out some gloves and tighten it back up and got out all the water I brought with me. Unfortunately I didn't bring the 3+ gallons it takes to fill it up. After discussing for a minute the got started up the hill to the next exit (we stopped in front of a sign saying 1/2 mile to the next exit). I stayed with the kids and let the engine cool down. About 20 mins later my wife showed up with 5 gal of water with the boss of a construction site up the road who gave her a ride. Thanks to Bob (wish I knew his last name) I was able to fill it back up and get back on the road. I was worried that I damaged the engine and I think if it were a gasser it might have puked something on the head but it started right up and pulled us up the hill. Hauling a load up a hill going 40-50mph working the engine just wasn't enough airflow without a fan to cool things off in 100 degree weather. Going down hill or on flat ground was managable but uphill was the killer. We would heat up going up the hills and cool off going down. Even though I have a small leak in my heater core I turned it on and kept the fan blowing. We had to stop one other time on the Shasta Mtn. climb but other than that we were able to reach the top and cool off going down before the next climb.

With the slow down we hit traffic but slipped into the carpool lane and kept a constant speed. Once we got to my parents house I left the cruiser running to cool off the turbo, grabbed one of the kids and walked straight into the pool to cool off. That was quite a day!

I brought a couple of projects with me and the very next day I started on the radiator fan. I took it apart and cleaned it up.



It was pretty easy to disassemble and if the motors ever died I'd definitely look at replacing them instead of buying another fan. The motors are significant in weight and feel up to the task.





This is on the shroud. It was made 1/30/97.



In order to get it to fit this is the only tab I had to remove and it was located on the top.



I brought my welder with me and some scrap metal to make brackets to mount the shroud to the radiator.



I drilled holes to use the existing mounts on the radiator and then drilled some new holes in the tabs of the shroud. I rested the shroud in the radiator and measured to get the right width for the bracket. The shroud fits perfectly right inside the lip of the radiator. I do mean perfectly.



Driver side bracket mounted to the radiator.



Passenger side bracket mounted. You can see my improved lower radiator hose adapter. The shroud just clears it.



I mounted the fan and started wiring. Here is the spal fan controller. It runs one fan from 50% to 100% and triggers another fan to run at 100% once the first fan hits 100% or the A/C lead gets 12v. The other fan has to be run off a relay. I didn't have time to grab a relay so I just hooked up the fan next to the radiator outlet port. I mounted the controller on the driver side well. I got lucky and put it down far enough that the hood spring just clears it. I may end up moving it just a tad or I guess I could do the hood gas strut mod.



Here are some mounted and clearance pics.







Here is a clearance shot from underneath. I've got about 1 1/2-2" of clearance with the pulley.



The spal controller gets it's temp signal from the OEM sender unit. The low and high kick-on need to be set at least 20 degrees apart and the manual says it doesn't work with some older sender units but doesn't classify what is "older". I tried setting mine twice but didn't have any luck so my sender might be older. I'll do some research but to get it working I wired in two switches; one to cut the power and one to override the signal and force it to run at 100%. I used the 12v ignition lead to cut power and the A/C lead to switch on the override.



Exhaust is next.

[boots4]

With the exhaust gas temps reaching 1200F we got some heat transfer into the cab. So much in fact the thought the soles of her sandles were melting. It was too hot to touch so I put a towel by her foot (she had driving duty) to keep the heat down. Maybe I'm expecting too much from the firewall coating I put on there but I think the main culprit to keeping the heat right there was the baffle I installed in the downpipe. The next day I moved the cruiser running it for 30 seconds. I got out and felt the downpipe and right after the turbo the pipe wasn't very hot but further down where the baffle was the pipe was almost too hot to touch and obviously causing a restriction. That restriction is pretty much right under the drivers go pedal foot so the heat would radiate up. I had thought about moving that baffle but after confirming that I yanked the downpipe yet again to pull it out. I cut off the very bottom elbow removed the baffle, patched the holes and welded the elbow back on. I also went to a local parts store and found some heat wrap.



Having a second set of hands would be helpful but I ended up doing it myself. The instructions said you could soak the wrap in water to loosen up the wrap so you could get it tighter on the pipe but I didn't want to have to wait for it to dry before painting it so i put it on dry. I also decided to forgo the "stainless steel" zip ties and used some wire instead. I started it by wiring on the end and over wrapped it keeping as much tension on it as I could muster. I wired it in a couple of places to give myself a break.



At 100F it was definitely shorts weather but for some reason the heat didn't get to me that day.



Done with the wrap and I've got plenty left over. The roll was 2"x50'.





Painted it with that silicon Hi-temp stuff to help protect the wrap.



The rest of my mostly straight pipe.



I reused the old catylitic converter mount, cut it up and used some rubber mounts I found at the hardware store previously in Portland.



I put one of the baffles in at the rear of the exhaust.



I left a little length on the exhaust pipe but plan to run a turn down on the end. This way I have a little to work with depending on what kind of tip I find and can cut some off if needed. I looked at a couple places in Cali but didn't find anything before we left.



Here is the forward mount bolted on the frame. I also didn't find any exhaust hangers that would do what i wanted so I still need to get some for the rear of the exhaust pipe. To get back I used some extra wire from the original fan harness to help support the rear of the exhaust.



With a fan working and the exhaust routed out the back I flushed the coolant (it was just water now) and mixed in some antifreeze with new water. I lessened the preload on the steering box, and gave myself just a half a turn less toe-in. This improved the steering some and it tracks a little better now. I mangled the manual boost controller I was building so I ended up taking the wastegate actuator off and tightening the rod three turns. I tested the actuator with air pressure from an air compressor and it opened and closed just fine. In fact that was the easiest way to get it bolted up and attached to the flapper valve in the exhaust housing on the turbo. I was hoping to squeeze a little more boost as 13psi was now the highest I was seeing.

We loaded up the trailer and I began to get a little nervous. We had at least 3000lbs+ probably more on the trailer (1000lbs+ empty) and several hundred inside. I was bringing back a hydraulic wood splitter, two rolls of carpet and several boxes of stuff, plus the stuff we brought. I decided to turn up the full power screw on the injection pump and went conservative with 1/2 a turn and made no other adjustments. It smokes on started up but quickly clears up (there is a smoke screw to play with to reduce that). I hooked up the trailer and took it for a trial run the night before departure. It was pretty heavy but seemed to pull alright.

We got on the road the next day and made our way to Medford and then to Portland the next day. On the flat it towed at 70mph running around 900-1000F on the pyro, 160F for tranny temp, and 190F for engine temp. I had the do the flat stuff and leave the hills for me. Switched after a couple of hours and when the hills started up. It felt the same accelarating (actually an improvement since we had more than twice the load as coming out) and I noticed the pyrometer responded a little quicker with the 1/2 turn on the power screw. I didn't want to push any limits so I eased off when it felt bogged down, disengaged the lock-up on the t.converter when it needed more rpms and down shifted for the hills. Once we hit some climbs I turned on the fan and left it on. The Shasta climb wasn't too bad I ended up in 3rd unlocked 1200F on the pyro, 220 on engine temp, 180F on the tranny. The next major climb and highest pass on I-5 was Siskiyou Summit at 4310 ft. and I aimed for 1200F but saw 1300F shortly on the pyro, 205F on the tranny due to being unlocked reved up in 2nd, and shortly up to 250F on engine temp. Once over the other side where gravity was helping everything cooled off quickly and was more comfortable. The other passes weren't so bad and the engine would almost reach 220F and quickly cool down on the other side. The two major passes brought me down to 55mph and 45mph but all the others we could pull between 60-70mph.

Lessons from the trip:

• I am not setup to tow. If I do another long trip like that towing I will get a set of smaller, lighter, thinner AT tires (like 35s or 36s). With the 38s running the overdrive and locked-up it almost wasn't enough rpm and felt bogged down but unlocked didn't pull as well. Regearing is also an option but then I would loose a low rpm unloaded that will help with fuel economy.
• One fan helped a bunch so getting both fan spinning is really going help and I should be able to tow through plenty of hills.
• I need more sound deadening to be more comfortable.
• Time to get a smaller sized master cylinder to get the full advantage of all disc brakes and hydroboost.
• These engines are tough little bastards that will pull their guts out! Very impressed with the engine and loved the purr while pulling at 70mph.
• I only reached 15psi of boost even with the mods so I'm considering a leak in the system somewhere. Could be fittings, clamps, the intercooler, intake manifold, etc. I know the intercooler is cooling because going down one of the hills I saw the exhaust gas temps get to 200F, the coldest I've ever seen, but maybe it could use a good cleaning on the inside.

Here is some aftermath of not having an downturn to get the exhaust away.





Sure glad I fixed my tailgate seal and now I know that it seals well!





Now that I got this towing bug out of my system I need to get this thing out in the woods and go wheeling!! Hope I can keep up the motivation to get the very few things done in order to see some dirt. I'm coming up on my year anniversary of when I started this thread so that means it's been just over a year that I've been working on this thing. Gonna need to give the wife, kids and yard more attention soon.

[brokenparts]

I love a guy that fixes his exhaust with a hammer....

heheheehe




Good work as always Mike.

[Tapage]

I always get time ( from no where ) to read your entire post .. I thought your wife really love you ..

15 PSI start looking better, and certanly 18 - 20 sound right for this engine .. but I'm really impresed at 260ºF wou ! I never seen this before ( and don't want to see it ) in any of my engines .. that's hot !

At 210 I'm feeling worried .. but are complete diferent animals between 4BT and my Toyota engines ..

[Kief]

Nice update.


Exhaust: I am curious if the flex adapter on my factory set up would be a good idea to incorporate to allow the vibration not to pass into the rest of the exhaust after the down pipe and also incorporate really flexible mounts... Do you think your mounts are flexible enough?
Heat: I have helped install high temp jacket on a genset in an RV that was awesome.. silvery neat-o stuff, non-asbestos.. I suppose that would be expensive and a last resort.. Was there any notice able difference on the way back?
Any fuel consumption/mpg stats?
Keep the updates comin'!

[boots4]

Yes a flex pipe is highly recommended and I have one connecting my down pipe to the straight pipe portion of the exhaust. I'm using some stainless steel stuff I found at Napa.

Moving the baffle and doing the heat wrap on the downpipe really did help. Even though EGTs where similar to the trip down it wasn't nearly as bad, in fact my wife's feet were cold during part of the trip so she took her shoes off and put her feet on the tranny hump to warm them up. I've still got all the heat shielding I took off that was on the cruiser originally so I might be able to make some of those fit if I get ambitious.

I'm not feeling noticable vibs from the exhaust so I think the mounts I found are going to work well. They do seem soft to me and were actually listed as small motor mounts so I figure they'll take the heat. Again I found these at the local hardware store in the nuts and bolts section. I think I found the mounts I want to use to hold up the back of the tail pipe.

I keep forgetting to grab my receipts out of the cruiser to do a mileage calculation. Hopefully I can remember to do that today. I'm pretty sure I wasn't getting 20+mpg.

[boots4]

I found some of my diesel receipts that I wrote the mileage down on but I can't find all of them. The ones I found were from the return trip to Portland hauling the heavier load up and down the hills and after averaged them I got 17mpg. I did correct mileage due to the bigger tires so that should be a true figure. Not bad but I think a few pump mods will give me more.

[Dirtgypsy]

hey boots, glad you and your family had a safe trip. I am sure there a few of us wagon folks that are planning a run up to browns camp at the end of the month. check the cacade cruisers web site for "danni's run"

On the 4bta note do you think the overheating was due to the wieght of the trailer coupled with the auto? It seems to me that most people have had nothing but praise for manual tranny swaps. Is the auto really that ineffecient? Not sure if this correct thinking or not.

Also it would be good to know if you can get just the motors for the Contour fan but I am under the impression you have to buy the whole unit.

I would love to get together and talk about the swap sometime soon.

Clint

[boots4]

Originally Posted by Dirtgypsy

On the 4bta note do you think the overheating was due to the weight of the trailer coupled with the auto? It seems to me that most people have had nothing but praise for manual tranny swaps. Is the auto really that ineffecient? Not sure if this correct thinking or not.

Clint

It sure would be great to have 4wd operational by the end of the month for a trail run. Sounds like there would be a few around in case I get into a bind working out more bugs.

I don't think the auto had much to do with it. Since I installed the tranny cooler and hooked up the lock-up on the t.converter the auto has always run colder than the engine so it can't be heating it up. When it was loaded (t.c. locked which would be similar to a manual being in gear with the clutch engaged) it was easier to get the EGTs higher. Once I unlocked the t.c. so that the engine could rev a little more and get more air through the system it helped cool the EGT. As for the manual tranny I suppose it depends on what tranny is being run. If it's a close ratio tranny then yes I've heard positive things but the popular NV4500 has a decent gap between some of the gears and if you're not going fast enough it bogs down the engine and takes time for the boost to build back up. If it lugs the engine and you've got your foot into it whether it be a manual or an auto the engine will heat up. Running the auto allowing the t.c. to slip keeps me "in" the boost during gear shifts but doesn't pull as hard as when I have it locked. Shifting my auto with the t.c. locked is too harsh especially if I have a load on it and have got my foot into it. If you are a manual kind of guy then stick with a manual. I think each have pros and cons and it ends up being something you have to drive so you are the one that has to like it. With my shift kit and manual control of the t.c. I'm definitely involved with driving my rig so I don't see much difference around town. What will be different is wheeling it and hopefully soon I'll be doing some of that to see how well I like having that t.converter and only two pedals on a difficult section of trail.

My reasons for heating up was a combination of things, not having a radiator fan being the biggest reason. Having a load on the trailer pushing the engine going 45 mph up a steep grade undergeared for towing with tall, wide, heavy mud terrains in hot temps with a restriction in the downpipe all added up when I couldn't get enough air flow across the radiator and intercooler without a fan. These engines do run cool but from my trip test they can get plenty hot when pushed.

There are things I can do to fix my situation like hooking up my fan (which did make a noticable difference on the way back and that was with only one side running), advancing the timing on my pump a hair (if it's in the stock setting which I believe mine is will reduce EGT a little), adjust the IP for more power to compensate for the tires (running gauges will tell me if I've gone too far for what I want to do like towing), and troubleshoot what I believe is a lack of boost to help get more air through the system to help reduce the EGTs to a certain degree.

Now that I've driven it for a week after the trip the 1/2 turn on the power screw has definitely made it more zippy so some pump adjustments will be coming really soon. There are other pump adjustments that will net a benefit so there is better potential than just turning the power screw.

[Dirtgypsy]

o.k. so that makes more sense. I knew that auto generally take more energy to run ie more horsepower is lost in an auto vs. manual but just didn't put 2 and 2 together plus weren't running the fan. The increased boost also makes sense so that helps. Any ways I will get a hold of you in the next week or so and meet up!

clint

[boots4]

FYI for those following along: My work schedule has changed and I now get the front of the week off so updates will generally come on weds or thurs.

I decided to start tinkering with the injection pump. I found a great chart showing how timing affects things on the diesel engine: Diesel Timing

It shows that one of the aspects of advancing timing is lower EGT. I turned the pump just shy of 1/8". I now think my timing was actually retarded some so I might be able to get away with a little more but figured it was better to go conservative. To get to the bolt underneath the pump I heated up a box wrench and bent it to hook under and clear things. I basically looked up the tool online and copied it. While I had my hands on it I figured I might as well pop the top and install the 3200rpm spring. From the factory the 4bt is governed to ~2500rpm. Also called the 366 spring, it really helps out when running a manual tranny. Figuring I'll have to sling some mud on the trail a little more rpm couldn't hurt even on an auto. This probably won't help my mileage numbers since I enjoy stepping on it already. For a good site with plenty of pics and instructions go here:

Den - Dodge CTD 1st Gen - VE Governor Spring Install

Here's my 366 spring compared to the old one (looks like 386).



This is the mechanical brain of my engine and I've got the top off.



I ended up with a little damage. This hole was hard to get to and even after buying some more tools to try and get in there the allen head got too rounded so I drilled out the head. When I was using a chisel to knock the head off I took a piece out of the body. Luckily it didn't crack through and didn't compromise the seal. The screw to the left is the full power screw. Mine originally had a funky metal cover on it that I took off to adjust it.



Here's where the spring goes. It attaches to the throttle arm.



This is the allen head I drilled into. Drilling loosen it up and I was able to use some small needle nose pliers to get it turned. I had already bought a new bolt anticipating that I'd bugger it up trying to get it out. Getting the new one in wasn't a problem.





I cleaned it all up, put it all together, attached eveything and grabbed the to help me start it. I showed her the manual cut-off, took the air filter off, and got a board ready to cap the intake if for some reason I get a runaway condition as a precausion. It started and idled fine. I turned down the full power a 1/4 turn so now I'm at 1/4 above my stock setting. My AFC diaphragm was not at the stock setting. In fact it looked to be turned to the highest setting (indicated by the wear marks on the eccentric cone the fuel pin rides on) so I set it to mid point between the two extreems. EDIT: After studying more I think it was in the least aggressive setting. Tuning continues.

I jumped in and took it for a ride and am happy with the increased rpms. It makes getting on the freeway easier and I'm not really tuned in yet. The advance on the timing did help with EGTs and they've decreased 50-100F. While I had my head down there I saw some oil on the output intercooler fitting. I took it off to find juicy goodness inside. I think my intercooler is partially clogged which helps explain the higher EGTs and lower boost numbers. I started thinking about it think I've got it figured out. I'm shutting off the engine with the turbo too hot. Oil gets pass the seals on the turbo and the next time I start it the oil gets pushed into the intercooler. I've been turning it off at 300-350F which is too much. It's a catch-22 thing because I can't seem to get it cooled off any less than 300F (even after 5-10 mins of idling) since the intercooler could be clogged so more oil makes it's way into the intercooler. I'm going to yank it, have it cleaned/hot tanked, put it back on and cross my fingers. I think this is partially a pre-existing problem since the stepvan didn't have a pyrometer and the drivers probably didn't wait for the turbo to cool down before they shut it off. Lessons learned I guess. I'm not going to play with dialing in the pump until I get the intercooler cleaned. I'll just keep plugging away on it.

[Captain23]

[quote/]Here is some aftermath of not having an downturn to get the exhaust away.





Sure glad I fixed my tailgate seal and now I know that it seals well!





[/quote]

Thats exactly how my jetta looks out back, hard as %hit to get off!

[bull]

Originally Posted by Captain23

Thats exactly how my jetta looks out back, hard as %hit to get off!

Soft Scrub works wonders on that

[kling-on]

Originally Posted by boots4

If you ever got into body work on your 60 I bet you'd turn out a pro! You'd have lots of practice.

my bodys dent free never wheel only driven on Sundays to go to church




I'd still trade ya my orange60 and black P/u for it if you ever get it down south lookin good