Have trans questions posted elsewhere; hoping from some input from the hardcore guys

scouthead · 03-23-07, 02:40 PM

Mostly having a problem deciding which drive-train to put in my beater pig.
Going to drop in my TBI350...
Have 700R4/NP241...
But the pig came set up for a 350 in front of the H42 and stock trans.

I like the idea of having overdrive to get me to and from the trail, but don't think I like the idea of not having the compression braking of the manual. Seems like every time I go out wheeling I rely on the engine to keep me from hauling ass down some trail, or to creep off a ledge or something. I sure would not want my new pig to take off out from under me any faster than my stock '76 on 31s with H42/ stock transfer. Maybe leave the H42 for now, and sm465 later? but then no O.D. Oh well, here's the link to my mess...

My $260 E-Pig...Which drive train should I use??!! Sorry kind of long...

thought maybe some of you guys would have expierience running an auto...a lot of the responses given so far have been from people like me, with wants and ideals, but no real first hand knowledge of either setup. Thanks

projektdotnet · 03-24-07, 06:11 PM

If you've got an auto in full low it will keep the gears down but you'll still need to use your brakes a lil more. I've driven a rig at the shop with a 700R4 +3spd toy case and even with 38.5s you know when it's in low

tntoyota · 03-26-07, 10:55 AM

MO,

1st. Ok, the manuel route.......try and see if you can get the "ranger O.D" unit and bolt it in betrwen the mtr & trans, my AA (free) buyers guied is in the other room..........I might repost.

N.V 4500?

2nd: The auto route......Boosting line pressure (shift kit) will give you a better, tighter feeling in the trans and a reverse/ manuel valve body with a shifter from Art Carr, B&M, etc, would basicly give you a man. trans with no clutch.

extra sweat for sand!! and mud.

scouthead · 03-27-07, 01:54 AM

I think my first choice would be an NV4500...but I have never driven one...and I don't have one.
And what is the deal with the manual valve bodies? I get the reversed pattern, but what does the trans do when you shift it into 4th? Does it stay in O.D. until someone shifts it out? (all the way to a stop and then what? Stall? Try to go from a stop still in O.D. ??) Does it drive like a regular auto when you put it in "drive"? If I had to down shift through all the gears and then back up, all the way to the trail (and back home), I think I would rather just have the third pedal...it doesn't overheat.

scouthead · 03-27-07, 02:10 AM

I don't think I like the idea of the Ranger O.D. Maybe my '76 H42 is just worn out, but I seem to get enough gear whip (don't know what everybody else calls it--whiplash-like effect during transition from on and off the gas). I don't think I would intentionaly add more shafts and gears(and play) just for O.D. ... seems like to harsh of a ride.

tntoyota · 03-31-07, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scouthead

I think my first choice would be an NV4500...but I have never driven one...and I don't have one.
And what is the deal with the manual valve bodies? I get the reversed pattern, but what does the trans do when you shift it into 4th? Does it stay in O.D. until someone shifts it out? (all the way to a stop and then what? Stall? Try to go from a stop still in O.D. ??) Does it drive like a regular auto when you put it in "drive"? If I had to down shift through all the gears and then back up, all the way to the trail (and back home), I think I would rather just have the third pedal...it doesn't overheat.

I thought you said you wanted compression breaking and/or control???

I would think the stall by thay time would not be high enough to power/ propel the vehical.

"Manuel" valve body implies "Manuel" do you start your 4sp out in 4th gear?

scouthead · 04-01-07, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tntoyota

I thought you said you wanted compression breaking and/or control???

I would think the stall by thay time would not be high enough to power/ propel the vehical.

"Manuel" valve body implies "Manuel" do you start your 4sp out in 4th gear?

Maybe I was not clear enough. My question that you attempted to answer was not about which gear I select with my Toyota H42 4 speed, to accelerate from a stop...
Normally when driving a GM truck with a 700r4, while shifting out of "park", the first forward gear you come to is "overdive" (4th gear). If you wish to pull the gear shifter all the way down to first gear, you can manually shift into second, and then third (drive), and then back into 4th. While in 4th gear the tranny shifts automatically depending on speed/ accel. pedal position/ etc.
It is my understanding that with a reverse manual valve body, the shift pattern would be changed to; "park", reverse, nuetral, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (overdrive).

My intended questions were: If driving a reverse manual valve body on the street, will placing the gear shift lever all the way down in 4th, allow the tranny to start out in 1st, and then shift itself into 2nd, and 3rd, and finally 4th (like it normally would while in 4th)? Or, would the tranny just go right into 4th gear, and stay in 4th, and only 4th, until I shift the lever into a different position (essentially eliminating half of the point of having an auto for highway use)??
I hope these are a little more clearly presented than my previous questions.

And tntoyota, "Manuel" is a name, and implies nothing other than:
Manuel: a masculine name: dim. Manny: see Emmanuel

Thanks anyway.

agent orange · 04-02-07, 08:19 AM

No, a full manual valvebody will not shift itself at any time. Hence the name. There are some valvebodies that are set up so you can leave it in drive and it will shift normally, but if you pull the shifter to first gear you must manually shift back to drive. That sounds like what you want. I want to say TCI sells those.

Eskimo · 04-02-07, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scouthead

Mostly having a problem deciding which drive-train to put in my beater pig.
Going to drop in my TBI350...
Have 700R4/NP241...
But the pig came set up for a 350 in front of the H42 and stock trans.

Common misconception- You WILL have compression braking with an auto. Anyone who says otherwise has never driven one. No new valvebody needed, either..

Put a big cooler on it and go. Mine never goes over 140° on the trail.

scouthead · 04-02-07, 01:00 PM

Thanks agent orange, and Eskimo,
this is what I need to hear. I thought I decided to use the auto when a friend told me his fj40 with a 700r4 got 18mpg to and from our desert hangout when he drove it easy (335hp vortec...rarely driven easy). I know my motor isn't going to breathe like his, and I don't have a roller cam, but it will be fuel injected (his ran a holley)... If I could pull that kind of highway mileage to and from the trail, I am totaly sold on the auto. I can look for a different valve body later if need be. I think a manual valve body that would stay "Auto" in high gear would be sweet - I'll have to call TCI...
Will probably end up centering the rear axle... am now trying to figure out how to make a parking brake work (and not have to undo the disc conversoin this car came with). I seem to visit my mom a lot in the winter (she lives up in the mountains...take fire-roads all the way up, and 4wheel all the way down), perfect excuse to go play in the snow. Anyway, she lives on the side of a hill, very steep, and I will need to NOT have my truck slide off the mountain while I am sleeping and the world is freezing/ icing over... Leaving my '76 pig in gear(4wd) with the brake on seems to work fine... leaving my '90 suburban with the park brake set, has lead to a big white truck pulling out of the neighbors bushes (across the street and 50ft down the hill) in the morning. Hmmmm....

Eskimo · 04-02-07, 01:57 PM

4low and park works great for me..

I've kept away from the manual VB setup for the 700R as I *heard* that downshifts can be brutal... could very well be wrong though.

scouthead · 04-03-07, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eskimo

4low and park works great for me..

Wait, what? No parking brake? Are you serious, or does the smiley face mean something... Does 4low keep the tranny from binding up when it's in park? I have almost not been able to shift out of park in my Burb with a TH400 a couple of times (not 4wd though).

Eskimo · 04-03-07, 06:35 AM

Yeah, I don't have a parking brake right now. The gearing in the t-case helps take the load off the parking pawl, and I haven't had any problems pulling it outta park.

Not the worlds best solution, but..

scouthead · 04-03-07, 01:20 PM

Alright, coool. I guess I won't worry so much about that one any more... guess I can plumb in a line-lock and plan on leaving it in 4-low...

campy · 04-03-07, 01:39 PM

I would suggest getting a hold of Orangefj45(Georg). I bought my 700r4 from him and had his buddy run through it. Great job on the rebuild. A decent rebuild could run $750-2200 depending on if anything is wrong and type of valve body/parts.
I'm not running this currently cause I'm saving away for the full 6.0L Vortec-700r4-stak drive train swap. 1 part at a time on a budget.
However, in long conversations with him and others I suggest a seperate tranny cooler with a fan. Spendy at first, but heat is an auto's worst enemy. If you plan to run this on the highway then stay non-manual body. Otherwise the manual can give you some issues on the street regarding constinently shifting like a manual tranny. Get a good torque converter for your set up. This involves a ton of research.
I second the line-lock for a parking brake set up. Cheap and easy.
Best of luck

,
Campy

scouthead · 04-04-07, 12:13 AM

Yeah there is no way I would run the auto without an external cooler. I think the stock converter would be fine for now...don't want a higher stall (my friend ran a 700 with a higher stall converter in his 40...sucked for everything except burning out or going fast), and I think a lower stall would be crap on the road.

scouthead · 04-09-07, 01:01 AM

It is decided. TBI 350/ 700r4/ NP241 currently sitting in my 55. Will need to fab up tranny crossmember tomorrow so I can remove the jack under the transfercase... Thanks for all the tips and info guys.

orangefj45 · 04-10-07, 03:56 AM

good choice!

i guess i should spend more time in this forum.

the th700 is a great trans. i run one in my 40 and have built a few for fellow cruiser heads. stock converters work great, high stall stuff is for sand drags, mud bogs and other high performance situations.

basic rule of thumb when it comes to converter stall:

1) the higher the stall, the hotter the converter and trans will run.

2) a vehicle should never be driven at engine RPMs lower than the torque converter stall speed.
driving below the rsted stall is the best way to get a converter toi fail prematurely......

full manual VBs and reverse manual VBs are for designated trail rigs, drag cars, mud boggers,....... but not for DDs. having one in a DD sucks and the novelty of shifting the auto all the time tends to wear off rather fast. you'll get plenty of compression breaking out of the auto in low.

a good cooler is a must. you should have plenty of room in the front of your rad to hang a high quality cooler. the tube and fin style coolers are not very efficient at all. try to find a "twisted tube" style low pressure drop cooler. they're amazingly efficient and the sizes are very compact making them easy to mount.
do NOT use the plastic zip ties to mount the cooler to the rad. the constant vibration and jarring from diving on the road and wheeling can and will cvause the plastic ties to wear thru the rad core causing it to leak. built yourself a simple cooler mount with some flat stock. you can see picks in my "project isabel" thread on here in the hardcore section.

last but not least, if you want to run an ebrake, then run the drums from an fj60 along with the ebrake setup. they work excellent!

good luck. lemme know if you need any more info!

scouthead · 04-17-07, 02:06 AM

Thanks Orangefj45, and yes I read through project Isabel... Looks killer, but is it finished yet? I sure hope my build doesn't take that long...
You mentioned running the FJ60 drums to utilize the parking brake. Is this an option after centering my rear axle using mini truck stuff? Fj 60 rear brakes interchangeable with mini truck brakes ?
I'm not sure I know what a twisted tube style cooler is, but I'll start looking around...

orangefj45 · 04-17-07, 09:12 AM

isable is far from done..........

as to your rear brakes, why not run mini truck stuff? should bolt right up and it'll work great.

i have a few coolers in stock if you're interested.