My piggy project

[k9crazy]

So I had been lurking around Cruisers for a long time before I bought my FJ Cruiser. But when I did buy it last year, the bug bit hard and I went out and bought a 1973 FJ55. It's in pretty good shape, with the exception of some typical pig rust.

At first I was going to keep it stock, but now I think I want to wheel it a bit more. I have a thread on the Pig Preservation page, but I have some questions that I need help with that I would rather post here.

I am considering swapping out the F engine to a 2F to get more horsepower, but have no idea if that will help enough to warrant the cost and work I'll have to put into it.

I am going to add a 4 speed tranny, this I know (although I don't know how...I am relying on help from my friends in my clubs).

Is the 2F swap worth it? I'll only do mild wheeling with it, no major rock crawling. I want to lift it about 4" with new springs and find a set of stock wheels and run at least 33's.

Any suggestions?

[lunyou]

i think alot of people like the F for 2F swap. I am not exactly sure why but it seems to be pretty popular. Good luck with the piggy, I think my wife wants one too at some point.

lunyou

[nat]

The 2F swap is good, just make sure you get the appropriate bell housing to go with whatever tranny you want.

Personally, I think putting the SBC 350 and NV4500 in my Pig was my best move. I am sure lots of folks will disagree with me, but I can cruise on the freeway at 72 and teh motor is only spinning at 2300 rpm, with lots of low end torque.

in any case, have fun, you are doing good work so far, I have been following your other thread.

[nuclearlemon]

i'd say first, how do you plan to mod it to wheel? are you going to go 31" tires, 33", 36", 40". are you going to go stock t case or orion? tow to the trailhead or drive? is the 2f in considerably better condition than your f? these are huge determining factors.

if you are towing, or staying with low tire sizes, or an orion, i'd keep the f and refresh it. a fresh f motor can be built to put you back in the seat...literally. the only reason i'd swap to a 2f was if i had a tired f and easy access to a fresh 2f, otherwise i really don't think it's worth the work.

if you're going oversize tires, driving long distances with 33" or larger tires, look into a v8 swap.

m.o. take it with a grain of salt

[yotawheeler]

while a V8 would net you more power and be better on the road...i would think long and hard before i put a V8 into a piggie, i mean...just like any other 45 there arnt very many out there any more and once you put a V8 it might not be reversable. just m.o. personaly i tend to shy away from the V8 conversions unless the rig is dirt cheap...but thats just personal preference

[eventhough]

My 2F pushed 35 inch tires and a SOA 1100 miles from MI to SC at ~ 65 mph without a problem. It could have gone faster but I didn't want to chance anything.

Could you consider going ahead w/ the lift and larger tires and see how your F does. If it needs 'refreshing' or replacement then do it at that point and if it works fine you can just leave it and skip the additional cost.

[k9crazy]

Yeah, I think that's what I am going to do, Steve. I figure that I can get the lift, the tranny and the body work done before the pumpkin pig run and then give the old girl a go at Cullowhee and see how she does.

So my next question is, how do you buy a used 4-speed tranny? I am sure they are out there, but I don't know what will make one good and one not? Rebuilt would be best I would assume, but I've never bought a transmission before so I have no idea.

Also is there some bolt-up adapter thingy that lets you keep the 3 speed and just add a 4-speed? I have heard of such a thing but have no idea where to source one.

Thanks y'all.

[nuclearlemon]

fortunately, used cruiser trannys are pretty dang durable. in all that i've had, only one was questionable. work the shifter through the gears, and, if possible, take off the top cover and look inside. if you have any questions, have someone that you trust that knows trannys look at it.

if someone is swapping trannies, they're probably getting rid of the bellhousing also, so get as much as you can. if you can get complete bellhousing to t case, that will save you a lot.

if you don't get the t case, you'll have to deal with adapting your 3 spd to the four speed tranny. some gears, a nissan bearing and spacers will be needed, there are a few writeups with part numbers in the tech page.

when you ask about adapting the 3spd to the 4spd, are you talking tranny or xfer? and are you trying to do a doubler? or are you asking about adapting your old 3spd style tcase to the 4spd trans?

[k9crazy]

OK, it sounds like I have a lot to learn...and it's all pretty basic, so bear with me.

Ige, I have no idea what I am asking. Thus my problem.

I know I have a 3 speed pig that drives like a tractor. I have been told (and believe it) that if I change to a 4 speed it will be less tractor-like and I will probably get better power. That being said, I don't know what parts I need to swap out and what I don't. I know that the 4 speed has a different bellhousing and I should try to get that too. I also know that the 4 speed won't fit in the pig with the current hump (inside the cabin) and I'll need a different one of those.

I wasn't planning on changing the transfer case...I think that's the bolt up thingy I was referring to. However, if I could find the 4speed tranny and the transfer case, then it sounds like that's the ticket. Right? Ugh.

Oh, and to answer the question before, I probably won't go over 34" tires and will only do mild wheeling...more expedition type stuff. The engine is strong, has headers already, and I am working to find an Aisin carb. to replace the Weber that is on there. I can't get that thing ajdusted right and it's just way too rich. I figure I'll put the original fuel pump back on (take off the electric), put the carb back on, rebuild the linkage (which should be interesting since I don't know what I am doing), and replace the stock air filter assembly.

Yeah, so that's all really easy to type...but to do? Thank GOD for friends and family.

[Trollhole]

Heather I thought there was someone in the club that was giving one away?

[nat]

When I bought my piggie, it had an F motor and a 3 speed. I drove it from Arizona to the San Francisco Bay Area, and that was going up 395 and crossing over on 120 (through Yosemite). The altitude and long hills really slowed me down, but that was cool.

My reasons for the V8 conversion, was power, the economy of the 5 speed and availability of parts in out of the way places.


What are the gear ratios of the 4 speed compared to the 3 speed?

[nuclearlemon]

if i were you, considering you will be driving it and staying with a fairly low tire size, i would swap to the four speed trans/tcase and rebuild the f motor.

the problem with the 3 speed is not enough gears and they way they are cut. they're very loud and don't allow for higher road speeds. imo, you will be perfectly happy with the gearing of a four speed trans and tcase on expedition type trails. the gears are close enough to the three speed.

[k9crazy]

Originally Posted by Trollhole

Heather I thought there was someone in the club that was giving one away?

I'll go back and do a search...if we do have someone giving one away, I'll be in Pumpkintown on the 2nd and could find room for one on the way home! Thanks Troll.

[Hugh Heifer]

I am in the middle of an F to 2F swap in my '71 40. The F was in bad shape and it painted the wall from the exhaust when I started it. Althought the F engine is a good one, the 2F is better due to its oiling sytem and its discplacment is higher (more horses). I got one that was rebuilt for a good price and am moving all the important parts from the F to the 2F. Luckily I already had the appropriate bellhousing as I have a 4 speed on the floor and matching Xfer case. It has been a messy job as the F was spraying oil from every conceavable spot.

I am all for a 2F but plan to rebuild one of the two Fs I have in the garage for my wifes 40 which is in over a thousand pieces and has been purchased in parts from about 10 people so far!

BTW - I am up in Rome, GA not far

[yotawheeler]

if you go to the 4 speed tranny keep the 3 speed t-case in there, it has a lower gear ration but i think you might need an adapter plate or other small details but im not sure

[srplus]

Originally Posted by yotawheeler

if you go to the 4 speed tranny keep the 3 speed t-case in there, it has a lower gear ration but i think you might need an adapter plate or other small details but im not sure

This is what I did when I did a frame off on an fj40... It made the vehicle more road friendly but not any more trail friendly... If you are making long drives to where you are cruising, the four speed and the 2F will be a bonus since your rpms will be a little lower.

I can't remember any issues re: needing an adapter plate (but then I am getting old and forgetful). I made quite a few mods to the 2F after a local machine shop rebuilt it and I used a lot of parts from Man-A-Fre. Way back when I did it (this forum was not around) they were extremely helpful with all the tech information and having the required part for any weirdness.

Good luck to you... as far as advice - I would not pull a good F motor just to stick the 2F in or the same with the tranny unless one or the other was in need of rehab... when that was obvious, I would then make the switch to 4 speed and a 2F.

Personal aside... unless you just want to work on the cruiser, wheel it. Get the body work done as you can and do the routine mechanical all the time. Do the big mechanicals as and when needed.

[jfz80]

I also know that the 4 speed won't fit in the pig with the current hump (inside the cabin) and I'll need a different one of those.


Heather--- you may not need to rebuild/replace tranny tunnel if you are in fact going to put lift springs on it. im not sure but you might ask around before tearing into the floorboards.

i like how this has gone from piggy preservation to slight build!! best of luck; and i cant wait to see it.

and i was talkin to a guy here that used to have a 55 and is currently rebuilding his 40 from ground up. he did the 4spd and left the 3 spd tcase for lower first gear. it required a DATSUN bearing of some sort. let me know if this is the way you want to go and i can ask again to get my facts straight and a part #

[rusty_tlc]

A couple of points/options not mentioned;
-The SBC conversion cuts around 200 pounds off the weight of the rig.
-Parts are cheaper and economy is better for the V-8.
-A V-8 with a sm420 would give better trail gearing than the Toy 4 spd.

I see nobody mentioned the H55 5-spd (Over drive Trans.). A piggy is plenty long enough to handle the extra length. If you plan a lot of highway driving the OD would be a real asset.

As long as you are swapping why not consider diesel? I think I will go that way when (if?) my 2F ever dies. Lot more power and way better miliage with a diesel.

[nuclearlemon]

couple of quick alternate points, all just mho. and not meant to disuade, just point out food for thought. i like to look from the poor person's standpoint since i'm poor.

h55 would definitely be nice, but pricey...about four times what you'd pay for a four speed, and harder to find since it's non us.

sm420 has a nice first gear, but doesn't shift near as nice as a cruiser tranny. parts are nla and it had a very short production time. sm465 was produced for a couple of decades and isn't much higher geared than the 420, also parts are available and they can be found everywhere for around $100

diesels usually require soa because of the height of the motor (unless you go with a 6at or something, but good luck finding parts).

lift springs will have nothing to do with the orientation of the trans/tcase vs. the trans tunnel. wait til it's in, than modify. i went v8 with 4spd in my 71 and only had to deal with shifter mounts (would've had to anyway since it was column shift), iirc.

in addition to mating 3spd style t case to 4spd tranny, you can also swap the 3spd gears into a four speed case (been discussed on mud forums). requires the 1974 transition gear and some new side thrust washers for the idler gear. not sure how that compares pricewise to all the parts required for the other 3to 4 swap, but i'm sure it's cheaper, just means you need to deal with setting up your tcase. you will walk away with a stronger t case.

[cruiserdan]

Originally Posted by nuclearlemon

h55 would definitely be nice, but pricey...about four times what you'd pay for a four speed, and harder to find since it's non us.

Agreed re the nice and the pricey part. New ones are still easy to get.
I can supply new H55 transmissions. A transmission, shift lever, oiler and knob adds up to just about 1,940 dollars.

[Hugh Heifer]

There is an H55 on Ebay right now.

[snailwagon]

I have a fj55 with an f engine and a 4speed. The f145 is old, has a lot of miles, and runs like the super low compression champ it is. I run no lift, 33"'s, ARB locker, and 3/4" body lift. It came with the 3 speed with vacuum actuated shifters. When I swapped to a 4 spd the only clearance issue was with the vacuum hoses, and those were flexible enough to not fully collapse when bent. The 3spd sucks. It belongs in the bushes on the side of your house. The 4spd trans can take a few hundred thousand miles. If it turns smooth and looks clean on the inside it is probably good. Don't pay more than $100 for one. With 31" tires and the 4spd the pig felt peppy. Try the transmission swap before the engine, unless you know your engine sucks. The technical links has a great writeup on the swap.

Basic tune up items and specific attention to your carb's condition will give you some power. For mild wheeling, 33's with stock gearing is just fine. with a 4" lift and maybe some trimming, you can fit 35's no matter what anyone tells you. If you have to buy new rims, get some with less backspacing. You'll be grateful.

[bigndn]

Originally Posted by nat

Personally, I think putting the SBC 350 and NV4500 in my Pig was my best move. I am sure lots of folks will disagree with me, but I can cruise on the freeway at 72 and teh motor is only spinning at 2300 rpm, with lots of low end torque.

Good point, Nat! My FJ60 has a SBC and NV4500 in it (PO conversions), and it's pretty frickin' awesome! No complaints here for low end torque or highway speed power. I think (not 100% sure) that it still has 4.11 OEM gears, and if true, I'd really like to go to 4.56s. I'm getting the jackstands out this weekend to figure it out. The 4.56's really made a big difference in my FJ40. Hope that helps with your pig.

[nuclearlemon]

Originally Posted by bigndn

I think (not 100% sure) that it still has 4.11 OEM gears, and if true, I'd really like to go to 4.56s. I'm getting the jackstands out this weekend to figure it out. .

most fj60s are 3.7 gears. 4.11 was an option.

[yotawheeler]

a couple comments...somone mentioned going to a diesel instead of a gasser...well then your gunna be looking at ALOT more money...with the domestice diesels you will have to look at a spring over or other largish lift to clear the oil pan, the other option would be toyota diesels but they are also realy expensive to swap and would require much more work then a V8 or other gasser swap would. when i was looking into diesel swaps general opinion was about i think around 10k once the smoke clears and the rig is on the road...

also...i have heard that the H55 is over rated, i have not run this tranny but from what i know you cant hit 5th gear very often unless its dead flat or down hill...

[Mark W]

Originally Posted by yotawheeler

also...i have heard that the H55 is over rated, i have not run this tranny but from what i know you cant hit 5th gear very often unless its dead flat or down hill...

That will be completely dependent on the rest of the drivetrain combo. It's only a 17% OD. Pretty mild compared to most.

I've driven this tranny behind a 2F in a '40, a couple of 3B in '70s and a 2H in a '60.

Works great and there is no problem with the practicality of 5th.


Mark...

[Mark W]

Originally Posted by k9crazy

I am considering swapping out the F engine to a 2F to get more horsepower, but have no idea if that will help enough to warrant the cost and work I'll have to put into it.

I am going to add a 4 speed tranny, this I know (although I don't know how...I am relying on help from my friends in my clubs).

Is the 2F swap worth it? I'll only do mild wheeling with it, no major rock crawling. I want to lift it about 4" with new springs and find a set of stock wheels and run at least 33's.

It is actually uncommon for power to be your limiting factor when involved in moderate of road use of one of these rigs shod with reasonable size tires. If your F is in good shape, keep it, take care of it and spend your money on other things which will get you a lot more bang for the buck.

The four speed is a great idea. It's a straightforward swap which can be accomplished using all OEM parts. Just find a parts rig with the four speed setup and start swapping pieces.

Lockers, lift, tires, gears, 4 speed, winch, bumpers, roof racks and al sorts of stuff like that will add a lot more fun and function to your rig than a more powerful engine. When the time comes that your F needs replacement, the 2F is a better choice if you can get one for a reasonable price. Chevy V8 is a simple swap too, and if you don't get carried away with high performance mods it can be nearly as basic and reliable as the 2F.


Mark...

[Mark W]

Originally Posted by k9crazy

I wasn't planning on changing the transfer case...I think that's the bolt up thingy I was referring to. However, if I could find the 4speed tranny and the transfer case, then it sounds like that's the ticket. Right?

You will need a T/C input gear from a '74 four speed mated T/C. This gear had the splining to fit the four speed output shaft and the tooth configuration to math the "three speed T/C". It is still available new. You also need a special bearing to match both the size of the shaft and the size of the case. Part numbers available in the tech write up section here on mud.

You will also need the bolts that hold the T/C onto the tranny from the fourspeed. They are longer than the ones on the three speed. You also need the high/low shift arm from a fourspeed T/C. Or jusrt swap the whole top plate from the four speed unit.

The 2WD-4WD shift rod is longer on the fourspeed T/C. Swap the whole shift mech to be simple.


Nice mod. The difference between the low range gear reduction is the equivalent of 4.88s instead of 4.11s.


mark...

[roscoFJ73]

Originally Posted by yotawheeler

also...i have heard that the H55 is over rated, i have not run this tranny but from what i know you cant hit 5th gear very often unless its dead flat or down hill...

The 5sp is ideal if you want to long highways trips. Their main enemy is the more powerful turbo diesels or V8s under acceleration in 5th.
The 5sp are long lived in F,B or H engines.
I did 1300 klms last sunday and only down changed 4-5 times on the hills

[crushers]

Originally Posted by cruiserdan

Agreed re the nice and the pricey part. New ones are still easy to get.
I can supply new H55 transmissions. A transmission, shift lever, oiler and knob adds up to just about 1,940 dollars.

thats CHEAP for a brand new tranny!!