Do aftermarket bumpers affect airbags?

[Angry Andy]

Note this thread was split off Angry Andy's original Bentup.com bumper thread. It clearly became a seperate topic so the thread was split.

Angry Andy did not start this thread

[chewey46]

Have they tested the bumper and how it reacts with the Air bag system??

The reason I ask is this could become an insurance issue. There are some crazy drivers out there!!!

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by chewey46

Have they tested the bumper and how it reacts with the Air bag system??

The reason I ask is this could become an insurance issue. There are some crazy drivers out there!!!

Pretty much all new vehicle air bag systems are independent of the front end of the vehicle. Back in the day when are bags wear new, the were actually triggered by sensors that were on the front of the car, some of the very first ones where actually concidered to be a compleatly mechanical system. Now a days, with everything being computer controlled, the airbag sytem is integrated into the vehicles computer system and usually (if I remember correctly) the control sensors are located in the dash and stearing columns. If anything, its possible, depending on the mounting system, an after market bumper could thearetically make the air bag system more sensitive by the frames crumple zones becomeing more stiff...

This link explains pretty good, how they work...

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/airbag1.htm

So as far as it affecting your insurance, I wouldn't think so...

[Angry Andy]

Originally Posted by jfonz

Pretty much all new vehicle air bag systems are independent of the front end of the vehicle. Back in the day when are bags wear new, the were actually triggered by sensors that were on the front of the car, some of the very first ones where actually concidered to be a compleatly mechanical system. Now a days, with everything being computer controlled, the airbag sytem is integrated into the vehicles computer system and usually (if I remember correctly) the control sensors are located in the dash and stearing columns. If anything, its possible, depending on the mounting system, an after market bumper could thearetically make the air bag system more sensitive by the frames crumple zones becomeing more stiff...

This link explains pretty good, how they work...

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/airbag1.htm

So as far as it affecting your insurance, I wouldn't think so...

It COULD affect insurance, since the 'crumple zone' sheetmetal has been replaced....Theoretically, I would THINK that with a SOLID bumper, the force would be more directly applied to the frame (since the sheetmetal bumper is gone)...hence your insurance may claim that the bumper caused the airbag to pre-maturely deploy.

The stock bumper mounts to the "horns" on the front of the frame.

The airbag sensors are mounted on the body of the vechicle; above and behind where the bentup (or stock for that matter) bumper is physically attached to the FJ.

Here are some pics of the sensor, and the 2nd pic you can see the frame "horns"....1st pic is passenger side, 2nd pic is drivers side.

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by Angry Andy

It COULD affect insurance, since the 'crumple zone' sheetmetal has been replaced....Theoretically, I would THINK that with a SOLID bumper, the force would be more directly applied to the frame (since the sheetmetal bumper is gone)...hence your insurance may claim that the bumper caused the airbag to pre-maturely deploy.

The stock bumper mounts to the "horns" on the front of the frame.

The airbag sensors are mounted on the body of the vechicle; above and behind where the bentup (or stock for that matter) bumper is physically attached to the FJ.

Here are some pics of the sensor, and the 2nd pic you can see the frame "horns"....1st pic is passenger side, 2nd pic is drivers side.

Are they impact sensors, or mass shift sensors?

Maybe there not as unique as I thought. From what I have studied most sensors are in the dash or stearing column, although I didn't really look into anything but U.S. car manufactures...

But ya, basically I think thats what I was getting at when I said it could make the system more sensetive as far as premature deployment goes.

I can't see why it would raise your insurance rates or anything though.. I've had a winch bumper on my rig for years now and my insurance has never asked or cared. I guess after an accident they could get after you about it, but theres virtualy no way they can clame your bumper caused a premature deployment and back it up, unless they somehow know for certain the speeds involved and the physics of the crash... to me I just can't see an insurance company caring that much that you air bags wen't off in a crash, but thats only taken from my personal experiance, other people might have had different experiances with there insurance companies.

[calamaridog]

Originally Posted by chewey46

Have they tested the bumper and how it reacts with the Air bag system??

The reason I ask is this could become an insurance issue. There are some crazy drivers out there!!!

You're worried about how the rear bumper affects air bag deployment?

I'm so confused...

[sleeoffroad]

This is a really touchy subject. The exposure is on the manufacturer. What if you get injured/killed and for some reasons your family decides to sue the manufacturer becuase of possible issues with deployment. Maybe your wife wants the life insurance money. Maybe the bags did not go off. They should have and we all think they should have gone off earlier, so they sue Toyota. Toyota says, no way, there was an aftermarket bumper on the truck. So who is next in line? The guy that makes the bumpers.

[beaufort-fj60]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

This is a really touchy subject. The exposure is on the manufacturer. What if you get injured/killed and for some reasons your family decides to sue the manufacturer becuase of possible issues with deployment. Maybe your wife wants the life insurance money. Maybe the bags did not go off. They should have and we all think they should have gone off earlier, so they sue Toyota. Toyota says, no way, there was an aftermarket bumper on the truck. So who is next in line? The guy that makes the bumpers.

how do you deal with this issue then? I would think if the "manufacturer" had a licensed engineer design the bumper (stamped / sealed / crimped full set of engineered drawings) that could possibly offset the design "flaws" to the engineers professional liability insurance. Maybe not %100 percent, but probably a majority of the blame.

[FJCruiserOwnersGroup]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

how do you deal with this issue then? I would think if the "manufacturer" had a licensed engineer design the bumper (stamped / sealed / crimped full set of engineered drawings) that could possibly offset the design "flaws" to the engineers professional liability insurance. Maybe not %100 percent, but probably a majority of the blame.

Who put the bumper on? Who bought it? Toyota? The bumper manufacturer?

Probably not.

The legal system needs to address personal responsibility.

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

how do you deal with this issue then? I would think if the "manufacturer" had a licensed engineer design the bumper (stamped / sealed / crimped full set of engineered drawings) that could possibly offset the design "flaws" to the engineers professional liability insurance. Maybe not %100 percent, but probably a majority of the blame.

Even if it is designed by a licenced/degreed engineer the liability still falls on the manufacture generally, that can then trickle down to the engineer, if there was one. Ultimatly if its decided it was becuase of the design/engineer, and they are degreed, if lives were lost, they can actually face jail time... Its compleatly rediculous IMO but thats the way it goes... But thats probobly a worst case sinerio.

I would think its more likely that someone would rearend somone with a bumper and the person that got hit try and sue the bumper manufacture for making a bumper like that. I'm pretty sure in court it wouldn't hold up at all, but when your looking at $100k lawsuit and they'll settle out of court for $15K its going to be cheeper than going to court to fight it.

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by FJCruiserOwnersGroup

Who put the bumper on? Who bought it? Toyota? The bumper manufacturer?

Probably not.

The legal system needs to address personal responsibility.

I agree fully with that statement....

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

how do you deal with this issue then?

At this point the only front bumper we make is for the 80 series. Some 80 series had airbags and some not. The stock bumpers on the different model are just about the same. We have the same disclaimer as ARB that the bumper was never tested with an airbag.

I would think if the "manufacturer" had a licensed engineer design the bumper (stamped / sealed / crimped full set of engineered drawings) that could possibly offset the design "flaws" to the engineers professional liability insurance. Maybe not %100 percent, but probably a majority of the blame.

That would not help. The only real way to ensure that you are not on the hook is to prove than the airbag does not effect the deployment of the airbags. This is obviously out of the range of the majority of small companies.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by FJCruiserOwnersGroup

Who put the bumper on? Who bought it? Toyota? The bumper manufacturer?

Probably not.

The legal system needs to address personal responsibility.

Yes, it is your choice to do so. However it seems like personal accountability does not play a big role in today's society.

I would say that the legal and insurance industry needs to be overhauled.

[beaufort-fj60]

Originally Posted by jfonz

Even if it is designed by a licenced/degreed engineer the liability still falls on the manufacture generally, that can then trickle down to the engineer, if there was one. Ultimatly if its decided it was becuase of the design/engineer, and they are degreed, if lives were lost, they can actually face jail time... Its compleatly rediculous IMO but thats the way it goes... But thats probobly a worst case sinerio.

I would think its more likely that someone would rearend somone with a bumper and the person that got hit try and sue the bumper manufacture for making a bumper like that. I'm pretty sure in court it wouldn't hold up at all, but when your looking at $100k lawsuit and they'll settle out of court for $15K its going to be cheeper than going to court to fight it.

not a flame, but I guess you're not familiar with licensed engineers (PE). I was just saying if I was a small shop making bumpers, it would be nice to have another person for the lawyers to point their fingers at. If a PE "signed off" on the bumper, he is legally bound and responsible for failures in the design. That's why a PE has professional liability insurance, to cover their ass if they sign off on a bad design. FYI my professional liability insurance covers me up to $2 million per occurance, which is common amount. If you were hurt and it came down to a lawsuit, do you think your lawyer would go after a welding shop or and PE with a guaranteed $2mill liability policy.

[Trollhole]

Just put "for offroad use only" and your covered.

[beaufort-fj60]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

At this point the only front bumper we make is for the 80 series. Some 80 series had airbags and some not. The stock bumpers on the different model are just about the same. We have the same disclaimer as ARB that the bumper was never tested with an airbag.



That would not help. The only real way to ensure that you are not on the hook is to prove than the airbag does not effect the deployment of the airbags. This is obviously out of the range of the majority of small companies.

are you willing to take this statement to the bank? the aftermarket parts business is a specialized niche that probably has not been fully explored by hungry lawyers. I'd rather cover my ass than take a potential risk, but that's me.


sorry for the hijack. i'm done

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

not a flame, but I guess you're not familiar with licensed engineers (PE). I was just saying if I was a small shop making bumpers, it would be nice to have another person for the lawyers to point their fingers at. If a PE "signed off" on the bumper, he is legally bound and responsible for failures in the design. That's why a PE has professional liability insurance, to cover their ass if they sign off on a bad design. FYI my professional liability insurance covers me up to $2 million per occurance, which is common amount. If you were hurt and it came down to a lawsuit, do you think your lawyer would go after a welding shop or and PE with a guaranteed $2mill liability policy.

What does PE stand for? Your right I'm not to familiar with all the different licensures. My schooling is in Mechanical engineering, but I'm not familiar with PE's or what there liability covers. The shops that I sub my stuff to have a liability insurance that is pretty high, somewhere in the 2 million area, but I know its been tough for my company to get liability insurance for all its products. Disclamers have been our best defense thus far...

[DanKunz]

Professional Engineer

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

are you willing to take this statement to the bank? the aftermarket parts business is a specialized niche that probably has not been fully explored by hungry lawyers. I'd rather cover my ass than take a potential risk, but that's me.
sorry for the hijack. i'm done

Not sure I am getting this comment. Based on your other post, I agree with you on the having the design validated. IE, tow points are rated etc etc. However how do you spec the strengh of the wings? The impact that the top tube can take? The really only things to sign off on are the winch mounting to ensure the winch is not ripped off, the tow points can sustain a certain pull force etc.

However, as a PE, can you design the front bumper and sign off that is is airbag compliant? If you can, what is the approximate cost in doing this?

As a supplier and manufacturer (even though our fabrication is outsourced, we are still considered a manufacturer) we also carry insurance to cover these kinds of events. However the insurance companies are getting stickier and stickier to supply insurance to small companies.

[beaufort-fj60]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

Not sure I am getting this comment. Based on your other post, I agree with you on the having the design validated. IE, tow points are rated etc etc. However how do you spec the strengh of the wings? The impact that the top tube can take? The really only things to sign off on are the winch mounting to ensure the winch is not ripped off, the tow points can sustain a certain pull force etc.

However, as a PE, can you design the front bumper and sign off that is is airbag compliant? If you can, what is the approximate cost in doing this?

As a supplier and manufacturer (even though our fabrication is outsourced, we are still considered a manufacturer) we also carry insurance to cover these kinds of events. However the insurance companies are getting stickier and stickier to supply insurance to small companies.

I went and looked at the "rules" for the worst state. CA. It seems that, and (I'm not sure on the exact semantics) but if your business is classified / legally known as industrial you are exempt due to selling manufactured goods across state lines.

This is from the California Professional Engineers Act:

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil
engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining,
public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that
corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or
services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary
employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.


"industrial exemption" is the magic word.

[sleeoffroad]

Originally Posted by beaufort-fj60

I went and looked at the "rules" for the worst state. CA. It seems that, and (I'm not sure on the exact semantics) but if your business is classified / legally known as industrial you are exempt due to selling manufactured goods across state lines.

But how does this help me getting a airbag approved design for a front bumper. I believe ARB crash tested the early bumpers in Australia. But from discussions about it, I got the impressions that they might have numerically modelled the new ones.

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by DanKunz

Professional Engineer

What kind of degrees back a PE?

[jfonz]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

But how does this help me getting a airbag approved design for a front bumper. I believe ARB crash tested the early bumpers in Australia. But from discussions about it, I got the impressions that they might have numerically modelled the new ones.

Thats what I'm wondering... Road Armor claims all there bumpers are airbag compatible. I was under the understanding this was becuase of how newer airbags opperate independently of the front end, meaning they don't deploy due to the front end crumbling, but due to the rapid decrease in acceleration.....

[sleeoffroad]

I believe you have to show that the bumper does not affect the deployment of the airbag system. Even though the system is independant of the front bumper, whatever is in front of the truck still affect the rate of deceleration in an accident.

I am pretty sure you can make a bumper, put it on a truck, go to NHTSA and ask them to crash test them and get it certified.

[beaufort-fj60]

Originally Posted by sleeoffroad

But how does this help me getting a airbag approved design for a front bumper. I believe ARB crash tested the early bumpers in Australia. But from discussions about it, I got the impressions that they might have numerically modelled the new ones.

capa certified? http://www.capacertified.org/home.asp

edit..wild guess because I don't know.... separate the winch tray and the bumper. bumper floats similar to OEM and winch tray is fixed to frame

[chewey46]

What sucks, because I can see this happen, is someone pulls out in front of you and you with the new bumper t-bones them. Will you insurance say, "Well if you had the stock bumper this damage wouldn't happen!!" Or even the other person's insurance say that.... Damn, this would suck.... I have a feeling that there would be a few lawyers getting paydays......

That sucks!!!!!!

[mml4]

I wanted to put the Ram Brush guard on my FJ but the dealer wouldn't order it because it has two uprights that are in front of the bumper.The parts manager told me that Toyota told them that it would cause a liability problem for them re: the Airbags. The only unit they would order/install is one that is above and behind the bumper.I bought the Ram unit elsewhere!!
Marc