[jzilla]

Anyone know of a diesel option anywhere? or talk about it?
sorry if this has been covered already!

[Alacrity]

Not going to happen near term. EPA standards are making things tough for diesels. Someone from TMA indicated they were staying on the sidelines - issues with EPA durability requirements. Heh, I know - Toyota worrying about durability. Just how long remains to be seen.

Luck
Alac

[nickw]

Originally Posted by Alacrity

Not going to happen near term. EPA standards are making things tough for diesels. Someone from TMA indicated they were staying on the sidelines - issues with EPA durability requirements. Heh, I know - Toyota worrying about durability. Just how long remains to be seen.

Luck
Alac

If Toyota put a diesel in the FJ Cruiser it would make me consider it more.
However, currently I don't see me getting rid of my HDJ81. I love it to much.

I do hear that Toyota will be putting a diesel into the Tundra to help it compete with domestic diesels.

This thread got me thinking. I wonder if people would prefer the FJ Cruiser as gas or diesel.
I am going to start a diesel or gas poll.

Cheers,
Nick

[plainolejeff]

You guys have a better chance of getting a diesel in Canada then we do over here in the States.

jeff

[mreekster]

why not? did they not put a diesel in a jeep liberty?

[jzilla]

Yes they did!

[pplkook]

Just got back from Ireland - They have Chrysler T&C minivans with a diesel in them as well...I bet is the same as the liberty - which they badge as a Cherokee Sport...

-Jack

[dieseldog]

I will never own another cruiser that does not operate on compression ignition.

[Alacrity]

I keep hearing the same about the Tundra - but from all Toyota put out doesnt seem soon. Mike Love - Regulatory guy for TMA - made some disheartening comments about the likely introduction of diesels. We'll see if those hold true.

Theres more than just pure engineering requirements of emissions - much of this is market driven. Most mfg just dont see much demand for diesels. Dodge, GM, Ford have a "work-use" base for diesels. Mercedes sees it as key for corporate image - even w/o CARB compliance - and a third of their market. The Jeep Liberty CRD made me hope - but the lack of a 2007 Wrangler CRD in the US is telling.

Plus there is real risk - the new EPA requirements are uncharted water. Standards require gasoline emission levels and 150k durability (meaning at 150k the system is still within specs - w/o intervention like refilling urea or cleaning PM traps.) No doubt it can be done, but at significant and somewhat unknown cost for low volume. Not a good combination. Good news is at the end of Feb EPA relented on the 150k standard for some classes of heavy trucks - we'll see if they are more diesel friendly overall - but I doubt it. US is particulate biased, the rest of the world focuses on CO2.

I dont think anyone wants to pull a VW and introduce 2 diesel models only to lose them within 18 months (Passat and Touareg).

Nearly all mfg in Europe offer a number of diesels. Daimler (the Chrysler is silent) is no different. Chrysler Minvans have both 2.5 2.8 CRD - since the early 90s, prior to the merger and its continued. But the Grand Cherokee got the 2.7 CRD (Mercedes 270CDI) - but now, along with the 300 and Commander get a Mercedes 3.1. Even the PT Cruiser has a 2.0 or 2.2 Mercedes oil burner. But European conditions, taxes and regulation favor diesel. Not so in the US sadly.

Luck
Alac

[LukeO]

I find it hard to believe that Toyota cannot affordably meet EPA requirements to either ship or build diesels here in the US.

VW sells new diesels, Toyota I'm sure sells more vehicles in the US than VW. It does not make sense.

I hate to bring up conspiracy theories, but if a Japanese model 80 series Cruiser gets around 24-26 mpg with a diesel, imagine the response American consumers would make with their wallets if Toyota had been selling diesels here in the US that get better mpg than their American made competition does; along with Toyotas being more reliable. Ford, GM and Chrysler would go under fast, they have a hard enough time treading water as it is.

I have never doubted the reason why Toyota does not ship diesels to the US is politicaly motivated, just like why Toyota now operates factories here, re-creating US jobs that have slowly faded in Detroit.

It's all take and give. They take jobs, so they have to give jobs to keep people happy.

[Alacrity]

Originally Posted by LukeO

I find it hard to believe that Toyota cannot affordably meet EPA requirements to either ship or build diesels here in the US.

VW sells new diesels, Toyota I'm sure sells more vehicles in the US than VW. It does not make sense..

Toyota, VW, Mercedes and one other have reportedly met Tier 2 Bin 5 - new '07 standard. AFAIK no mfg has met FUL (10yr/150k emissions durability) - thats the rub. So If Im Toyota why invest to sell a very small percentage of diesels in one major market, and none in another. How many 2CTLC (Camry) , 2L or 2L-T (Trucks) were sold in the 80s - the US diesel heyday? Not enough to continue. One sector it would makes sense is full size trucks - as theres sufficient volume to warrant - and I bet we will see Tundra diesels. As much as it pains me, there is no conspiracy here.

More than half of the vehicles VW AG sells worldwide are diesel. No idea how many Toyota sells worldwide but I'll bet its no more than 10% - none in their two largest market US and Japan. SO it really doesnt matter total number of vehicles - but how many diesel. Economy of scale - Europeans have a distinct advantage here - kinda like the Japanese did in the 80's when home market conditions required small cars and the US was ready for them.

The market for diesels in the US is very small. Toyota has commited to Hybrids - less risk and better showcase for technology. Face it - diesels arent sexy. Like all technical issues, emissions will be solved, but I dont think we'll see anything (hopefully a Tundra) from Toyota in the next 2-3 years - as the EPA has set a very high bar and Toyota has no compelling market interest.

Luck
Alac

[hill]

stupid question...whats compression ignition??

[tarbe]

Originally Posted by hill

stupid question...whats compression ignition??

A diesel. As opposed to spark ignition.

[aamiggia]

I think the vast majority of Yankees don't like and/or understand how good new diesels are. That coupled with the cheap fuel have made diesel unattractive in the US. Since Canada is such a small market, we get everything that the US gets.

Let me ask you, who wouldn't want 50% better fuel economy and 50% more torque for 50% less fuel?

More than 50% of all VW's sold in Canada are TDi's. They're the only game in town except for MB. Ask most TDi owners why they bought their cars, they won't say it's because of the reliability or quality.

IIRC, Oct. 2006 is when low sulphur diesel hits the shelf. So, I'm hoping that all of the European models will be introduced into Canada. I'm holding out until 2007 for a new Honda diesel. I'll laugh my ass off if Canada gets the FJ Cruiser with the D4D Prado TD engine. (not holding my breath)

[Alacrity]

I think your exactly correct- most thing they are noisy, stinky and slow. Folks look at me like Im insane when they find out Im trying to score a GL320/420 (if Daimler pulls the trigger). Marketing sure could go a long way in curing this misimpression - since its no longer true. But the US vehicle buying public is a creature of habit - it will take pain to change behavior.

Originally Posted by aamiggia

I'm holding out until 2007 for a new Honda diesel. I'll laugh my ass off if Canada gets the FJ Cruiser with the D4D Prado TD engine. (not holding my breath)

I hope it happens. I dont know much re: Canadian issues but my understanding is that Canada is basically conforming to US emissions. If its sold in the US, it must meet US emissions in Canada. From Dieselnet:

"The new regulations adopted under CEPA 1999 continued the past approach of aligning with the federal emission standards of the US EPA.... The Regulations align vehicle and engine certification requirements with those of the US federal EPA requirements...During any phase-in period, every model of vehicle or engine that is certified by the US EPA, and that is sold concurrently in Canada and the United States, is required to meet the same emission standards in Canada as in the United States."

Goodnews - if it wont meet US standards it wont be a US model - so Canada can still get it - if the volume warrants- it for a while. Long term, it appears Canada is adopting US emissions overall.

How much of Petrol cost in Canada is Tax? UK tax is from 6-10 times as much as US. Plus the CO2 taxes paid on the vehicle itself. Its not so much that US petrol is cheap at base (US and UK base petrol cost are nearly the same - tho UK has some of Europes highest pump prices) - but that it is relatively untaxed.

[FJ40Jim]

Toyota doesn't want to talk about diesels in the north american market because they are heavily greenwashing themselves with "hybrid technology", i.e. electric transmission. The unofficial official TMNA corporate line is that diesels are stinky, polluting bad things, unlike the hybrids which are PZEV.

GM and Ford are making E85 vehicles. DC and VAG are doing diesels. And Honda and Toyota are promoting Hybrid.

We can stop talking about Toyota Diesels in the USA, cause it's not gonna happen in the foreseeable future.

We'll just have to keep building them ourselves with Cummins 4BT's.

[Eric Winkworth]

Originally Posted by aamiggia

I think the vast majority of Yankees don't like and/or understand how good new diesels are. That coupled with the cheap fuel have made diesel unattractive in the US. Since Canada is such a small market, we get everything that the US gets.

Let me ask you, who wouldn't want 50% better fuel economy and 50% more torque for 50% less fuel?

More than 50% of all VW's sold in Canada are TDi's. They're the only game in town except for MB. Ask most TDi owners why they bought their cars, they won't say it's because of the reliability or quality.

IIRC, Oct. 2006 is when low sulphur diesel hits the shelf. So, I'm hoping that all of the European models will be introduced into Canada. I'm holding out until 2007 for a new Honda diesel. I'll laugh my ass off if Canada gets the FJ Cruiser with the D4D Prado TD engine. (not holding my breath)

I agree completly, if people would get out of there head all the old diesels like a 3B that rumbles, stinks and is slow and realize that there is nothin a gas motor can do that a diesel can't. More power, more technology, more usable touque, less fuel. What else do you want?

The bottom line is that toyota remebers the 80's when they sold less then 700 diesel LC's in canada in 1986 which is peanuts. I have emailed them several times telling them they should bring back diesels. This was there reply

"Thank you for your recent correspondence.

Currently, there are no plans to add the Land Cruiser or diesel engines to the
Toyota Canada line-up.

We would like to explain that market trends are closely studied to give us a better idea of what vehicles are in demand. Then based on our findings, our Product Planning department is able to choose those vehicles that best suit the needs of the buying public. We recognize, of course, that these choices may not
meet the needs and fulfill the desires of all potential customers.

However, your interest in these options have been noted and forwarded to our
Product Planning department for their information and future consideration.

Thank you again for taking the time to write.

Sincerely,

Ryan Michaud
Toyota Canada Inc. "


I think you should all go on there north american website and tell them you want a diesel toyota!

[rusty1]

I know I am behind in this post ref diesel
Here in Canada its not as bad as in the States but I think the problem here is:
1-People just don't like the noise diesel makes

2- Don't like the smell of the fumes

3- Diesel is more expensive than gas

Vw had diesel in Canada and they were very smelly and noisy. People were turn off with them. Also because its colder than down south they have to be plugged in so if you are at work and no place to plug it in its no good to you. I would love to own a diesel but like you in the States can't buy then here. What I don;t understand why so stringent with the diesel fuel rule when here in Canada on the main highway between Montreal and Toronto there is a 18 wheeler that goes by every 1 minute. I would be a millionaire if I could collect 1 cent a truck a day. There are literally thousand of trucks that travels that road Daily. Any way that's my take on it but then what do I know I am only an old FJ owner