newbie- 60 or 80 or 100 series?

[SaMingTRD]

First poster here, I have been hanging out at ExPo (ExpeditionPortal) forum for those who know of it. I am looking for a expedition vehicle and have narrowed it down to a LC but can't decide which series to go after and I was hoping those with the same goal could point me in the right direction.

My status is simple. I am a young single guy with a 65 lbs dog planning on starting expedition travel. I am from N. Kentucky and looking to explore the area before I turn serious and head west for several weeks at a time.

My plans are front bumper w/ winch, rear bumper w/ tire carrier. Roof rack to store fuel/water, maybe a RTT. Sliders, mounted fridge/freezer, snorkel suspension upgrade, 2 in lift, the whole deal basically. Hoping to sleep in the rig w/ my K-9 buddy (shorthair breed) maybe building a cargo system to store gear under and sleep over etc...

I really can't decicde which direction to go...I have been viewing this forum for about 6 months and still have no clue...the 60 seems great, and most members are running them in the 200k mile mark which is appealing. Reliability is a must for me. I like the fact that I can afford to kit out a 60 and keep my dailiy driver. But a 20 year old vehicle with 200k+ miles on it makes me wonder about the quality and reliability as well as MPG...the 80 is a classic and a perfect vehicle from what I've seen/read. But again paying 13k for a 15 year old rig makes me wonder about reliabilty and service costs as well as poor MPG. Now the 100 is only a option if it can be had for less thank $20k, but they are newer, more rich people have babied and car pooled them and they "seem" to be more reliable/less service cost and better for daily driving.

My budget is no more than 18k for the rig and then the mods will follow. The less I spend on the rig the faster I can mod and get out there. I still have not decided to get rid of my daily driver depending on the rig I get. I do not drive much, for example I own a 95 sedan that had 17k on it (owned for 8 years) now it has only 60k miles on it. I only drive to work or the grocery store etc...

Sorry for the rant but this is a start, I appreciate your time and feedback on my issue. Thanks

-SaMingTRD

[canucksafari]

Personally, I think the 60 is a classic expo rig. Lots of nice ones around at good prices. Now, they will not ride as nice as an 80 unless you do coil springs. But they are easy to set-up for sleeping in and are part-time 4x4. Because they are simple machines without the extras of an 80 or 100 series, I think they would be more dependable on long trips. Look for one which has spent its life in a dry climate. They tend to be more problematic with rust, especially coming from snow states. If you find a rust free one, then I suggest you oil the fram and panels once or twice a year to keep it that way. The 80 would be my second choice. They are coil sprung and give a nice ride. I would look for one with a factory locker front and back. The 80s like any gas Cruiser likes to drink fuel. With either of these, I would want to do a diesel swap for fuel economy (not always cheaper than gas but will go further on the same amount of fuel).

[SaMingTRD]

yea- I forgot to mention that diesel is the ultimate goal- either I plan to invest in this rig which means adding a diesel swap (eventually) or having this rig for 10 years until future diesel vehicle/options become more affordable for a new platform...

-SaMingTRD

[joshoisasleep]

I can only say from experience, and I've never owned an 80 or 100, but the 60 is a solid expedition vehicle. One real life example of how the simplicity of this machine makes it ideal is when I came to the point that my vehicle was getting a bit too heavily loaded for the suspension. Since the old beast is leaf sprung, I was able to just add extra leaf springs instead of hunting for suspension kits (something that would not have been feasible on my expedition). $100 and 1 day parts and labor vs. I don't know how much money or how long for shipping, and installation.

If your goal is diesel (the most sensible choice imo for anyone thinking of expedition use), then I think the 60 is by far your best option. You will be able to import diesel 60s if you find one you like, and they're likely far easier to do an engine swap on thanks to very simple electrical systems, etc. I don't think you can import diesel 80's (I understand you can only import from Canada and we never got em), and even if you could now you're stuck with RHD.

Oh and I think probably avoid storing fuel on the roof. You're better off with it as low down as possible... think aux tank/rear jerry cans. Having it on the roof will make your truck wobbly I think... save that space for your sleeping bags etc. If you want interior storage AND sleeping, I would recommend not a drawer system but a setup like the one I copied from another poster in this section (they're both on the 1st page). If you're sleeping on top of drawers then you have no headroom which sucks, and you're sleeping right up next to the windows. You might consider a rooftop tent as well, but I'm really pleased with my setup right now.

[roscoFJ73]

Originally Posted by SaMingTRD

yea- I forgot to mention that diesel is the ultimate goal- either I plan to invest in this rig which means adding a diesel swap (eventually) or having this rig for 10 years until future diesel vehicle/options become more affordable for a new platform...

-SaMingTRD

The 60 or early 80 series are the easiest to convert to diesel.
I think you would be best off with a good 80 and allow yourself some spare money for accessories.
You want sliders and a winch ,so you want to do some serious offroad work?
The bargain price of 80 series with solid axle ,possible lockers and a low rust body renders the arguement null and void.
Coil sprung vehicles can also be lifted for higher less $$$

[wierdbeard]

i've driven 80's and 105's around Africa and the ME, and now own an 80. That being said, I paid alot for the one i have but am now seeing them for less than half what i paid. Coil suspension is definatly cheaper to lift, and the 80's ride alot smoother than the 60's. If your looking for something rust free you can always start looking on CL in Northern Cali, there are tons of Cruisers out here and go for good prices. I know the Canuck versions are RHD but i do know that there are factory kits out there to switch things back to the southpaw side, we did it several times in Africa. I plan on going to Diesel as well in a few years when my motor finally gives up the ghost. Good luck!

[joshoisasleep]

Uh no Canadian vehicles are also LHD. I can imagine a lot of car accidents at the border if we drove on the opposite side of the road...
It's the Japanese ones that are RHD, and these are frequently imported into Canada. I've yet to come across a kit for RHD to LHD conversion!

[canucksafari]

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

Uh no Canadian vehicles are also LHD. I can imagine a lot of car accidents at the border if we drove on the opposite side of the road...
It's the Japanese ones that are RHD, and these are frequently imported into Canada. I've yet to come across a kit for RHD to LHD conversion!

There are no statistics concerning accidents and switching diving position at the border. People do it all the time in many different countries - not to mention people who fly from a RHD country to a LHD country and immediatley jump into a rented vehicle.

Now for those who really can adjust to a few feet difference in driving position, then they can have them switched over but it isn't cheap - about $10 Gs. BTW, there are many RHDs in the US and they can also be purchase brand new from the factory there.

If you can get a nice RHD HJ61, then I would go for it. I think a coil spring swap has been done before if ride is an issue and would probably be much cheaper than a diesel swap.

[Cruiserdrew]

Once you factor in that you want a low initial price, an 80 is the obvious answer. There are lots of excellent trucks out there and are super capable out of the box. You could easily build an "expo" 80 for under $10k, and put the rest towards fuel for your expedition. All you need is a stock 80 and an OME heavy (2.5) lift. Add tires and go on any expo you want.

A 60 would also be a decent choice. It's slower, older, but easier to understand and work on. A lot depends on you. If you like classic Land Cruisers, the 60 feels more like a bush taxi. The 80 feels like a luxury car and the 100 IS a luxury car.

It's also much easier to do a diesel swap on a 60 (check out the 4BT swaps). For me personally, if I could only take 1 cruiser on a 2 year trip, it would have to be the 60. I like the manual tranny, and it is significanly more economical than my 80. It's also way easier to work on The 40 is too rough and too small for extended travel.

As long as your off roading goals were modest, a 100 would make a fine expedition truck. The down side is that it's difficult to lift, hard to work on, and has a fragile front end. Not to mention that the buy in will be significantly higher. Still not a bad choice.

Where do you see yourself going?

[SaMingTRD]

Like I said before, either I plan to do a diesel swap down the road if I am too sentimental/invested to let the rig go, or buy a used diesel vehicle to start over again in 8-10 years when the future ones are out and less expensive...

I'm not interested in importing, LHD conversions or a manual transmission...

I plan to stay east of the Mississippi for the first couple of years or so until I feel more comfortable venturing out west to the desert or pacific NW. I am not at all interested in wheeling in MOAB or anything of that nature.

My goal is to find remote area's and set up camp/hike and explore the area w/ my K-9 buddy- where there are no roads, people or where I will be hassled because I have a dog.

what is a good cut off point for a used 60 or 80 as far as the odometer?

[hks3sgte]

Don't worry too much about which Land Cruiser. Just buy what you can afford and DRIVE!

[Jacket]

Have you driven each of the rigs? As others have said, the ride quality varies significantly between a 60 and an 80, and there's another (albeit smaller) jump up to the 100. If you plan on traveling in the truck, I think that ride comfort should be a top priority.

The other thing you should research is gas mileage. If you want to travel in your truck, then in addition to your fixed costs for truck plus build, you will have ongoing costs to put gas in it, and maintain it. None of these options can be considered efficient, but be sure to figure out what a built version of each of these trucks can manage in mpg.

I've seen 1998-2000 vintage 100 series trucks out here for under 18k (usually 90-150k miles), so based on your criteria one of these should still be in the race, right? The up front cost might be more, but possibly less cost to build and maintain?

I dunno - given your choices, the safest thing is to pick the one in the middle (the 80). Moderate cost for the truck, top notch canvas upon which to build (except for the weight/power ratio), tons of aftermarket build options, and a world class reputation for doing exactly what you want. I think you just gotta spend a couple hours driving around in each one, and then decide for yourself what "feels right."

[e9999]

for the US: 80, maybe even 100 depending on your need for comfort

for South America: Diesel 60!

[wierdbeard]

10 G's for the switch-over? WOW, we were paying 3 total turn around was about a 2 weeks.

[joshoisasleep]

Originally Posted by canucksafari

There are no statistics concerning accidents and switching diving position at the border

Actually I wasn't serious I just had this hilarious comic-book mental image of the two lanes just meeting each other and a massive pileup...

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

All you need is a stock 80 and an OME heavy (2.5) lift. Add tires and go on any expo you want.

I agree with you on most things, except I think a lift is just about the least essential addition for expedition use. It raises your center of gravity, thus harming highway safety and cargo weight carrying profile, and you don't need it... it won't so much get you out of a bind, but rather in to one by making you feel cocky about your beefed up rig. Essential for serious offroaders, but for real "expedition" use it's not necessary. That being said I don't think a 2.5 is going to hurt, it just isn't at the front of my list for sure. If you get nothing else, get a camping kit and/or RTT.

Originally Posted by wierdbeard

10 G's for the switch-over? WOW, we were paying 3 total turn around was about a 2 weeks.

WHAT! Where?! Who? Seriously that is really cool... I and I think many others have looked for this but not found it...

[SaMingTRD]

I have driven all three. The 60 was by far the most fun to drive, sure it didnt handle great and I was bouncing all over like in a jeep, not to mention the road noise but i felt "adventurous" in it.

The 80 was way more refined, it cruised great and it had just enough touches on it to make it a step above the more primitive 60. Felt like I was driving a piece of history and could tell why people have so much faith in them.

The 100 was way over done. It felt like driving a $60k vehicle. Lots of luxury and bells and whistles that I could care less about. But it was the quietest and best handling of the bunch. Felt like I could drive that sucker all the way down to the tip of Ushuaia Argentina and back. I felt very confident in it, like it just wouldnt brake down on me ever. - maybe thats just an illusion though...since more technology means more to go wrong at the wrong time...

[joshoisasleep]

Originally Posted by SaMingTRD

...Felt like I could drive that sucker all the way down to the tip of Ushuaia Argentina and back...

That's what I'm doing in my 60...
It's funny your description of the cruiser series. To me the 80 series seems like the newest thing, 60's seem current, and 55's and 40's are the old beasts! I can't even conceive of owning a 100!

I would always prefer a 60 but I agree with others on the rust factor. The 60 actually could prove to be a more expensive option in the long run if you want a rust free one, and you want to keep it that way. An early 80 I think shares a lot with the 62s, so you can have the advantages of simplicity and the newer body style. One big advantage (for me) in the 60's over the 80's is that the 80's have full time 4x4, and I hate the idea of not being able to turn it off when I really don't want it!! Again, an element of simplicity lost...

[wierdbeard]

WHAT! Where?! Who? Seriously that is really cool... I and I think many others have looked for this but not found it...

While in africa we had to convert three different 80's as well as a couple of troopies over to LHD, we ordered the kits through the a dealership rep in Djibouti who ordered them from a contract facilitator in Yemen. We also bought our 105's from them.

[Brian894X4]

I'm a big 80 fan, but if I were looking for a new vehicle today....as much as I love my 80, it's getting really hard to justify 10-14 mpg in this day and age of $4-5 gas and knowing that it could easily go even higher.

Your situation sounds like a perfect candidate for a Toyota mini-truck or Tacoma, where you're one person, and the dog can either sit up front or ride in the back and the back with a canopy will make perfect sleeping quarters.

Like I said, I absolutely love Land Cruisers and especially my own, but my trips are measured in $100s of dollars just in gas alone and that's pretty hard to swallow. Even with stock Land Cruisers, you're looking at between 12-16 mpg tops.

If you're still stuck on a Land Cruiser, to me a '93-'97 80 is the perfect compromise vehicle. Better ride and more power than 60, but still solid axles for off road.

Good luck.

[square-hole-punch]

SaMingTRD,
My take on expedition vehicle choice is the following. Some maybe painfully obvious, but IMHO, these points are worth considering:

1. The size of the "roads" you want to travel on and how long you want to stay out without refuelling, water, and clean clothes will determine the size of your vehicle. Besides carrying you and your passenger, it will also has to carry your clothing, spares, tools, fuel, food, water, and trash (should you not come across a trash can) SAFELY, as in all the load will not make your car misbehave in inclement weather or uneven surfaces. Emergency maneuvers are an entirely different thing, BTW...

2. Drive a car you're comfortable with, and if you have questions of reliability, make sure you drive a car you understand as much as possible. You may need to fix some problems yourself, even if it's just enough to get your car to the nearest help. Diesels are good, but not when it doesn't start and you don't know what's wrong with it.

3. Newer cars have (presumably) better handling and better safety. These alone worth more than any upgrades you can fit into an older car. Don't skimp on anything that might save your life when the need arises.

[SaMingTRD]

Yea- the Taco seems like an ideal choice, however i need a double cab for room for the dog, but that means sleeping in a short box (5ft) when I am 6 foot 3. Access cab wont work, too small for dog to fit in the back but sleeping quarters would be ideal. And the 2nd Gen Taco long bed is the perfect choice, however there isnt as much aftermarket support for them and the most important issue is its way out of my price range. I do like Scott Brady's set up though where he puts all his gear in the truck bed and deploys a RTT over the bed- easier to get in and out of instead of having it pearched on the roof- very trick.

I just figured I could either sleep in the back of a LC or get a RTT and still have enough room for all my gear.

KY state is very rocky with narrow red clay trails and lots of water crossings.

I am a minimilist and dont need many creature comforts to get by, roughing it is half the fun.

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by SaMingTRD

I am a minimilist and dont need many creature comforts to get by, roughing it is half the fun.

If that's really true, then the FJ60 is the truck for you. It's simple, reliable, very large interior, and still lots of parts for it in the Toyota parts train. You could buy a decent one, have the motor rebuilt and 5 speed tranny installed and still be way under $10k. Miles are not the issue with these trucks, rust is the issue. Find a rust free one and enjoy. The motor will go reliably to very high miles if maintained. Try and find a 1 owner truck, and the motor may still be just fine. As an example, mine runs strong at 220k, and one guy in the 60 section has over 400K miles.

Remember too, in this day of expensive fuel, save the cash you might spend on the truck, and put it toward the cost of your travel. Every 1000 miles will cost you $350-400 in fuel alone, so plan for that in your travels.

Diesel swaps get harder with later trucks, so factor in how realistic that plan really is. If you are set on it, again the 60 is a better choice.

[sandcruiser]

before you start getting excited about a diesel swap, you might sit down and do some math...

Diesel and gas seem to be rising at similar rates. If anything, diesel is rising faster during winter months.

Any diesel swap is going to cost you at least $5K. Most diesel swaps will net you between 30% and 50% increase in efficiency (I get mid-20's mpg in my hd-t. Most 80's get around 14. Just did a trip with two similarly built 80s, one had a FZ the other a 4BT. The 4BT was getting low 20s when we were getting 15.)

So "best case" you get twice the mileage (and probably some more power) out of the diesel swap. If you do, then you'll recoup your investment of $5K in a mere 2,000 gallons of fuel (which would yield around 56,000 miles). Even if you are drivng the heck out of it, you probably won't actually do 25K miles per year. That's 2.24 years.

If you do the same numbers on a much more realistic scale, you are looking at 4 or 5 years to recoup the investment.

To complicate things more: if you put a diesel into your cruiser you are opening up a can of worms for things to go wrong. Either you use a domestic diesel motor, which means a custom installation with custom parts that will be harder and more expensive to fix in backwoods USA (let alone other countries) or you are going to use a Toyota diesel which will cost a lot more to obtain, will have very very little mechanic support in the USA and will be very hard to get parts for it.

the FZJ motor is pretty ubiquitous in the USA and elsewhere, has great parts/mechanic support, and drives well enough for most expedition type travel (hey, I spent years behind a 2F, the FZJ is a ROCKET in comparison).

If you think you want a diesel conversion, find a good-quality fzj80 with a blown motor or blown HG. Then at least you'll save some $$ on buying the truck.

Keep in mind with all of this: I bought a converted hd-t 80. Love it. Great motor. But hard to justify converting an 80 in the states on fuel savings alone.

W/regards to suspension: I think that a slight lift (2.5 OME) is one of the best investments you can make on an expedition rig. You'll be spending a lot of time behind the wheel, adding comfort for you and reducing wear on the contents is a good thing. Higher is rarely justified, in my opinion.

Before you buy bumpers/sliders/armor... consider the terrain you'll do and the weight of the stuff you are buying. All that weight eventually turns into $ at the pump.