Awesome 2m radio coverage

[alvarorb]

We just finished a week long trip in Death Valley National Park. Our trip took us from the Eureka Dunes to the Defense Mine. A complete blast covering all sorts of terrains and land features. A real treat.

We were very impressed by the coverage of 2m in the area. In most places we could hit the Silver Peak repeater. In the northern part of our trip, the Bishop repeater was available as well as the Mazourka Peak repeater.
On Hunter mountain we were able to listen to the Yosemite repeater as they rebroadcasted a transmission from the space station. Very cool.
In the Southern part of out journey, the Angel Peak repeater was available.

But the most impressive radio contact we had was between us (the main group) and 450Dude who was joining us. When he first established simplex contact with us he was a mere 32 miles away in Independence, CA while we were going over Steel Pass. The only issue with this, is that the Inyo mountains separated us. They stand around 9,000' high. Considering his and our altitudes, there was at least a 3,000' difference on each side. Also very cool.

After the initial contact we used the repeaters in the area to keep track of his progress. The plan was to meet him at the Saline Valley Warm Springs.
Using the radios we guided him in all the way.

My FT8800 with it's dual band, dual receive capabilities turned out to be very helpful. I could monitor a repeater and a simplex frequency at the same time. Before the trip, I looked up the repeaters in the area on the web and programed, not only my radio, but 450Dude's radio with the repeaters in the area. The ARRL repeater directory software is tool to know where repeaters are located and what their call sign is. Unfortunately, the information gathered from the software is not very accurate. Many times the repeaters don't work. Awesome concept, not very good implementation.
Once you know your route, Google is the best way to find the availability of repeaters and their frequencies.



The blue line is between us and 450Dude on the initial simplex contact. The red place marker is at the Saline Valley Hot Springs, where we waited for him to come in. The other blue place markers show his route.

Regards

Alvaro

[reffug]

very cool............

[spressomon]

Alvaro: We had a very similar experience when we were in DV at the end of last year. A few of us had already setup camp at Saline Springs and were out on a foray when we were able to make 2m simplex contact with Sam & Teresa and also Ali. Ali was coming from the Beatty side and we were coming back from Lone Pine. We estimated we were about 45-miles apart with one deep valley and one mountain range apart!

And, although a little easier from a terrain/line of sight perspective, we were able to talk to Sam again on 2m simplex when we were also coming up to South Pass from Lone Pine and he was on the North Pass side of the valley trying to find the turn off for Saline.

You're experience with the 8800 has me rethinking my choice. Being able to monitor a repeater and a simplex channel is something I would have been able to use and will use! That darn list !

[e9999]

this was all on full power with biggish antennae, I imagine?

[spressomon]

Originally Posted by e9999

this was all on full power with biggish antennae, I imagine?

I was using a hatch lip mount 1/4 wave antenna and Ali was using a 5/8 wave I believe, mounted in the center of his 80 series roof. I tried communicating at all power levels without distinction. However I believe my lip mount antenna was the funnel/culprit so to speak. I suspect without an efficient ground plane it won't matter how much power you push really. We could hear Ali like he was 100 yards away...but all he got from us was scratchy 2 out of 10 quality: Albeit we did at least communicate effectively with one another.

I will be moving to a center roof style antenna to increase the overall efficiency of the system.

[Cruiserdrew]

I was in on this conversation as well. First let me say I am totally sold on the 8800. Monitoring on one side and talking simplex on another is great. It's that, as opposed to the cross-band repeat that gives it the nod over the 7800. All the contacts were on 2m, though, and 440 really was not in use at all, but if there were 440 repeaters, then that would have worked equally well. The action does seem to be in the 2m spectrum. I had good coverage all weekend with a 5/8 wave dedicated 2m antenna.

Second, the simplex contact was weirdly good. Even on 10 watts we had fuzzy contact and on 60 watts we had clean contact. It was the 10000 foot range of mountains in the way that made it so impressive. Remember we had radio contact, but didn't actually see him until 3 hours later.

Going forward, I can see designating a repeater or series of repeaters (in hyper-memories) to monitor, and a simplex channel to keep live, then having the #2 side scan a series of local repeaters incase coverage is spotty or problematic.



Edit--Spresso--The hatch mount works fine, it's your antenna that is not, at least that's my guess.

[e9999]

point taken on the dual receiver for the 8800 of course.
On a 7800 you could also do a limited scan over the repeaters and simplex freq, should be quick enough that you could monitor things effectively.

[e9999]

I did try putting both a 1/4 and 1/2 w antenna on the rear hatch top (not side) and the SWR was way worse than on roof center. I imagine it's worse still down below on the side.

[spressomon]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

I was in on this conversation as well. First let me say I am totally sold on the 8800. Monitoring on one side and talking simplex on another is great. It's that, as opposed to the cross-band repeat that gives it the nod over the 7800. All the contacts were on 2m, though, and 440 really was not in use at all, but if there were 440 repeaters, then that would have worked equally well. The action does seem to be in the 2m spectrum. I had good coverage all weekend with a 5/8 wave dedicated 2m antenna.

Second, the simplex contact was weirdly good. Even on 10 watts we had fuzzy contact and on 60 watts we had clean contact. It was the 10000 foot range of mountains in the way that made it so impressive. Remember we had radio contact, but didn't actually see him until 3 hours later.

Going forward, I can see designating a repeater or series of repeaters (in hyper-memories) to monitor, and a simplex channel to keep live, then having the #2 side scan a series of local repeaters incase coverage is spotty or problematic.



Edit--Spresso--The hatch mount works fine, it's your antenna that is not, at least that's my guess.

Andy: I really think the hatch mount is the problem on my rig and the subsequent lack of a solid ground plane. I have two different antennas and its the same issue with each. Mind you it's plenty good for convoy communications. And it certainly did a respectable job for what it is when we were reaching Sam and Ali. It's just lacking when you are pushing the distance limit when/if necessary. Ideally it might be nice, due to the various places I travel, to have two mounts with a switch. I do like the hatch mount when on trails with overhead branches...it takes a beating for sure.

[450 DUDE]

Im using a 39" comet 1/2 wave on a hatch mount.
I was using all the power I had (55w) for those tx.

Having a good dialed in radio and antenna for me on this trip made it sooo much easier .
The fact that if it went wrong I could get a hold of someone.

Side note on handy uses of the radio on this trip:

- talking to locals on the repeaters and getting real time info on where to eat and gas up ,as I rolled through a new town.

ken

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by spressomon

Andy: I really think the hatch mount is the problem on my rig and the subsequent lack of a solid ground plane. I have two different antennas and its the same issue with each. Mind you it's plenty good for convoy communications. And it certainly did a respectable job for what it is when we were reaching Sam and Ali. It's just lacking when you are pushing the distance limit when/if necessary. Ideally it might be nice, due to the various places I travel, to have two mounts with a switch. I do like the hatch mount when on trails with overhead branches...it takes a beating for sure.

There is no question that an NMO mount in the center of the roof and a 5/8 wave antenna would be ideal. Before you give up on the hatch mount, try for 2m contacts with a tuned, dedicated 2m antenna that is 5/8 wave.

You could also ground the hatch with braid, which is what I did (also ALvaro), or you could even try a 1/2 wave antenna which is not as dependent on a ground plane. If all you have up is 1/4 wave antennas on 2m, you are not going to get great radio performance.

I think I mentioned before, but I switched over to whip style antennas, which are more durable and cheaper. The one I ran all week in DV was really excellent in some of the weak signal conditions. I am going to try out the 1/2 wave version of that same antenna on my 40 this year since the 40 has no ground plane up high.


Eric-Regarding your swr readings, that's odd, since with Tricky T's help, we got the SWR to about 1.3 with the long Comet antenna, and 1.7 using the Larsen whip. That's on a standard hatch mount.

[e9999]

Originally Posted by Cruiserdrew

snip

Eric-Regarding your swr readings, that's odd, since with Tricky T's help, we got the SWR to about 1.3 with the long Comet antenna, and 1.7 using the Larsen whip. That's on a standard hatch mount.

these are good numbers, much better than what I remember mine to be and comparable to what I got on the roof. Was this after tuning ? (mine weren't).

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by e9999

these are good numbers, much better than what I remember mine to be and comparable to what I got on the roof. Was this after tuning ? (mine weren't).

That was the Comet SBB25 right out of the box, ie no tuning. The Larsen whip is more old school, comes with a whip that is about 4-6 inches too long, and you tune it by cutting. They give a guide to get the length close, then you snip in 1/4 inch incriments to tune where you want it. I tuned mine for 146MHz exactly. It took about 15 minutes.

If you were using a mag mount on the roof, the numbers will not be as good, since the coupling is not as good.

Any 1/4 wave antenna is going to give fairly marginal performance even if the SWR is close to 1.0. BTW-THe SWR of my SBB1 was very low-1.4 or so. Good thing since it is not tunable at all. As Spresso said, it's very adequate for truck to truck convoy type chat, but really suffers with distance contacts.

Just some rough numbers:

Comet SBB25--- 4 dB gain

Larsen whip--- 3 dB gain

Comet SBB1---- 0 dB gain

[e9999]

yes, mine were done with a mag mount

and of course there is the issue of cables etc

[LandCruisers4Life]

That's all cool stuff, and one of the main reasons I am looking into HAM as well. I have already been checking out online practice tests and radios. Here are some radios from Icom that I have an interest in so far:

The 75W V8000 is tempting with the transmit power...

IC-V8000 144MHz FM Transceiver - Features - Icom America


This less powerful unit at 50W is nice, with the dual channel abilities etc... The fact that it acts as a comparitor between two antennas and chooses the best signal when operated in a singal channel is pretty cool too......

IC-2820H Dual Band FM Transceiver - Features - Icom America

I also found this rather interesting...
ID-1 1200MHz Digital Transceiver - Features - Icom America

[woytovich]

Just to satisfy my curiosity... was there cell service where all/some of this took place? Maybe a silly question?

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by woytovich

Just to satisfy my curiosity... was there cell service where all/some of this took place? Maybe a silly question?

No cell service. It's pretty remote on the Saline Valley side. Remember the scale here. The Floor of Saline Valley is at most 2000 ft. The Inyo Mountains are 9000 feet. The escarpment is extremely sharp. These are not like East Coast mountains.


It was interesting, though. The following day near the Racetrack, we had a brief patch of cell service heading up to Lost Burro gap. I have no idea where the tower was, but likely near Las Vegas. I called Cruiserdan and ordered a radiator. No kidding. The area of cell service was only about 1/2 mile long. Weird.

These radios rock. Anyone who thinks they'll get by with CB is kidding themselves. We've had other similar experiences with radio to radio communication over 100 miles.

Remember too, that we had a couple of repeaters we could hit in the same spot, so theoretically, we could have done a phone patch if there was an emergency.

[alvarorb]

LC,

Power is not all what a radio is about. You'll be surprised how far you can go with just 5W. The secret to this is the antenna. The better the antenna, the further you'll be able to communicate.

Having 3 radios, I rather have the ability to monitor 2 frequencies at the same time, than more power.

Regards

Alvaro

Originally Posted by LandCruisers4Life

That's all cool stuff, and one of the main reasons I am looking into HAM as well. I have already been checking out online practice tests and radios. Here are some radios from Icom that I have an interest in so far:

The 75W V8000 is tempting with the transmit power...

IC-V8000 144MHz FM Transceiver - Features - Icom America


This less powerful unit at 50W is nice, with the dual channel abilities etc... The fact that it acts as a comparitor between two antennas and chooses the best signal when operated in a singal channel is pretty cool too......

IC-2820H Dual Band FM Transceiver - Features - Icom America

I also found this rather interesting...
ID-1 1200MHz Digital Transceiver - Features - Icom America

[LandCruisers4Life]

I sure agree with you on the antenna Alvaro. I have been looking around a bit at this stuff, self education you know and I found that a lot of HAMs recommend the Larsen for 4x4s.... Also, drilling a hole and solidly mounting it. Would like to hear your thoughts on this guys. I know the best spot is probably the roof, but that's vulnerable in heavy tree coverage. I was thinking on the bull bar out front. The australians seem to have luck on the bar.

Thanks...

[Cabrito]

Originally Posted by LandCruisers4Life

Here are some radios from Icom that I have an interest in so far:
The 75W V8000 is tempting with the transmit power...

This less powerful unit at 50W is nice, with the dual channel abilities etc... The fact that it acts as a comparitor between two antennas and chooses the best signal when operated in a singal channel is pretty cool too......

I own the V-8000 and the Yaesu FT-8800 -
The V-8000 out performs the FT-8800 for 2m hand down, but it is a 2 meter only (it's not the power that makes it perform better I believe it's the antenna and I run a very large Hustler on the LC and with the V-8000 you need an antenna that can handle the 75w if you run it at that power level) . I always miss the FT-8800 when I am without it because of the Dual Band and the dual monitoring feature. Sometimes I run both in the LC - the Yaesu pretty much lives in the car but I have it set up for easy removal to go into the LC or my go box -
Once you get a taste of a dual band you may not be happy with a mono band -

-mg

[SOCALFJ]

Thats cool. HAM's are amazing thats for sure. On simplex I've hit about 70 miles with my 2800M and my Diamond SG2000HD antenna. But there weren't any hills in the way.

On repeaters, shoot, i've used a NODE and pinged Antarctica from SoCal.

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by LandCruisers4Life

I sure agree with you on the antenna Alvaro. I have been looking around a bit at this stuff, self education you know and I found that a lot of HAMs recommend the Larsen for 4x4s.... Also, drilling a hole and solidly mounting it. Would like to hear your thoughts on this guys. I know the best spot is probably the roof, but that's vulnerable in heavy tree coverage. I was thinking on the bull bar out front. The australians seem to have luck on the bar.

Thanks...

I'll try and discourage you from this course of action. The bullbar is the worst possilble place to put your antenna from a radio perspective. It's a low spot, it's noisy electrically, there is no ground plane, and it's just the wrong spot to put an antenna. The Ham radios are so good, that of course it will work, but it won't be optimal.

If I did put it on the bullbar, I'd run a 1/2 wave antenna so it isn't as ground plane dependent.

On a wagon, the hatch mount is as good as it gets without drilling a hole in the roof. It has enough metal to be an OK ground plane, it's high (this is a big advantage), and if you set it at the right level, the body protects the base of the antenna, but most of the antenna is above the roof where you want it.

Bottom line, a Hatch mount is really nice if you don't want to drill holes in your roof. The Diamond K400 series is what you want.

[LandCruisers4Life]

Thanks for the advice on the antennas Drew. What about mounting it to a roof rack?

I had looked at those dual HAM radios, but they are about $300 more than the Icom V8000...... almost $600 or so. I still got a little time til I make up my mind.

[alvarorb]

Originally Posted by LandCruisers4Life

I had looked at those dual HAM radios, but they are about $300 more than the Icom V8000...... almost $600 or so. I still got a little time til I make up my mind.

LC,

Yaesu's dual band, dual receive radio, the FT-8800R is about $360.
For $600 you're in the realm of the Kenwood 710 with D-Star and APRS.

Regards

Alvaro

[LandCruisers4Life]

I keep seeing yo