Ham question - handheld vs. dash mount

[MDarius]

I'm looking for a little advice from the HAMs and future HAMs out there. I'm looking to get my license this year. My primary use / reason is to be able to communicate in the event of a personal emergency. Of course, all the other things, like picking up the hobby, being a part of a local emergency network, etc. are part of it too. I like to camp and hike remotely with my family and friends. With this of course comes the risk of being lost, injuries etc. My questions are:

-Is a hand held 2 meter adequate (Like the Yaesu VX-2R)?
-What are the advantages of a dash mount unit over a hand held like this one?

An incident similar to the one the Kim family found themselves in last year is not entirely out of the question for any of us. As I make trip plans I see myself being in a situation like that and want to be prepared.

[FJ40_owner]

Is adequate assuming you understand its limitations.

Battery life - You always need to be aware of the state of charge of your battery. Once its dead you are SOL. A weak battery results in a crappy signal. (Everyone hear that!!) I carry an extra battery pack that I stuff AA batteries into. I carry and stash AA's everywhere. Many HH's allow outboard 12 VDC to be connected to them.

RF- HH's have wieny antenna's. You could expect to talk five miles or more on Simplex depending on line of sight, not much more. You will be able to hit repeaters but may be scratchy. (Annoying some...) HH's can be adapted to a gain outside antenna quite easily. Car to car will work just fine.

Ease of Operation - HH's are small and most displays are hard to read. Some have extra bright displays. The buttons are small and cannot be operated using gloves. (not for me anyway)

If I only had $300 to spend and wanted to be able to hike and wheel I would indeed get a HH. Yaesu VX-7. It is water proof and PC programmable, receives broadcast radio and uses a Lithium battery. ALL accesories are spendy.

JB

[MDarius]

Land Cruiser maintenance / build up, Ham, home ownership...all expensive hobbies. Fitting that they should go together.

[rusty_tlc]

My plan is to go with a HH unit with vehicle hook-ups to antenna/power and hand held mic. Possiable an amp in the rig.
I haven't put a pencil to it yet but I'm thinking it will be cheaper than putting a unit in two different rigs. Plus I have the flexability of a portable unit.

[cruiser_guy]

Hand held has alot less power. I got mine because of travel in remote areas with the truck but not for hiking or other travel away from the truck.

[dfmorse]

MDarius;

I personally would go for a dual band (VHF/UHF) mobile system in the cruiser.

If u go with the handheld, u can put a decent dual band antenna on the FZJ80, even a clip on, so that ur range is increased.

Here's a look at the junk on my 94-FZJ80:

http://homepage.mac.com/dfmorse/RigProj/index.html

...

[alvarorb]

I'd get a mobile unit and put mounts on your vehicles. Use a magnet mount antenna. That way the system is truly portable.

You want something that will work when you need it. The disadvantage of a HH is that if the batteries are not charged.... The mobile unit works with your cars battery. It has more power. Dollar per dollar, I think you get more bang for your buck on a mobile unit.

Regards

Alvaro

[MDarius]

Good info from everybody. Thanks. I know so little right now you have given me a lot to research. I'll have a look in to that yahoo group. Thanks!

[Bob_Garrett]

Sounds like you have gotten a lot of good responses to your questions already, but I will toss in my .02 worth anyway. Having have done a lot of work with various ARES and RACES groups through the years, including public service, storm spotting and disaster damage assessment, I can tell you one of the biggest problems has always been folks using handhelds.

The first problem is the power output. Handhelds have a max power of around 5 watts. If you are working through a repeater, this puts you at a disadvantage as repeaters generally have much higher power. So, you can hear the repeater just fine, but your signal can be noisy or non-existent. Throw in some atmospheric noise, and it makes it really hard for others to hear.

Second problem for handhelds, is that some have very poor inference rejection. Now if you are only using it out in rural areas, this is probably not an issue, but if you're using it in a city, you'll likely have areas where it will be extremely difficult to hear anyone due to interference from adjacent high power commercial radio transmitters. Mobiles are not immue to this, however they typically have better filtering than the run of the mill handheld.

If you decide to get a mobile, spend the extra coin to get a dual-band (144/440) if you can. Then later on, you can add a dual-band handheld and you will be able to set them up to cross-band repeat, effectively turning your truck into a mobile repeater.

73,
Bob N5UOU

[MDarius]

Mobile repeater...heh heh...that sounds cool. Sounds expensive! I suppose safety on and off the trail is worth a lot though. Hopefully I'll always have more opportunity to use it in someone else's behalf more than my own.

This article is a good example of the difference I think a HAM could have made, and the reasons I want to start up:

http://www.wusa9.com/news/news_artic...?storyid=55010

Synopsis: Two hikers found a woman missing for 5 weeks...still alive. They left her with supplies, then...''They hiked 20 miles over the next day and a half, and on Saturday hitchhiked into Silver City, where they contacted authorities.'' The found hiker survived, but she could have been rescued much sooner had she or the others had HAM...I think. Thoughts on this?

Thanks Bob! As with everything, it sounds like practical experience is going to be worth a lot.

[Bob_Garrett]

You can reduce the costs by buying used gear. Most local HAM clubs have swap meets and you can usually find good used radios there.

As far as the benefit of a HAM radio in the situation you described, without knowing what kind of repeater coverage there is in the area, it's hard to say. If you used your vehicle as a mobile repeater and could stay within range of it, that could certainly be helpful. Only problem would be battery life in the vehicle.

A better option would probaby be an ELT.
http://www.boatersworld.com/product/396200412.htm

[Mark W]

Originally Posted by MDarius

Mobile repeater...heh heh...that sounds cool. Sounds expensive! I suppose safety on and off the trail is worth a lot though. Hopefully I'll always have more opportunity to use it in someone else's behalf more than my own.

This article is a good example of the difference I think a HAM could have made, and the reasons I want to start up:

http://www.wusa9.com/news/news_artic...?storyid=55010

Synopsis: Two hikers found a woman missing for 5 weeks...still alive. They left her with supplies, then...''They hiked 20 miles over the next day and a half, and on Saturday hitchhiked into Silver City, where they contacted authorities.'' The found hiker survived, but she could have been rescued much sooner had she or the others had HAM...I think. Thoughts on this?

Thanks Bob! As with everything, it sounds like practical experience is going to be worth a lot.

With an range of 5 miles for your handheld... What are the chances of a story like this happening within range of a repeater, much less anyone else with a radio?


My thoughts are: Hand helds are not expensive. Get a good mobile for your rig and a handheld for when you are way from the rig. Or for comunicating with someone who is out opf the rig (recoveries in and around running water can pose communications problems when you hgave to yell back and forth of the noise). Or for loaning to someone on the run who has no radio.

I don't see a handheld being a whole lot of use by itself when you are out hiking in the back country. If there is a repeater that close... You probably aren't really out in the back country after all.



Mark...

[alvarorb]

Mark,


I agree with you to a certain point. I think that the climbers that got lost in Oregon in December would have had a much better shot if they where HAMs.
Or even better, a device like the one that Bob talks about. A multiband HT is a lot better than nothing...


Alvaro

[Mark W]

Climbers lost in Oregon? Not familiar with that one. But again, were they in hand held range of a repeater?


ELTs are another story. But they should be reserved for true emergencies. And you should not expect immediate response either. First it has to be received by an overflying aircraft or a sattelite. Then the "authorities" have to be notifed. Then they have to decide what sort of response is merited (remember an ELT just says "here I am", no other info. It can easily be the next day or longer before anything gets underway. And it will seldom be a rescue helicoptor heading straight to you.

I've been involved in my share of ELT responses (aircraft) in the past. Help will get there, but don't expect it to be like calling the fire department.



Mark...

[RABID1]

Long time, first time- Duh

Hand Helds (HT's) are great. A small amp (Brick) and a mag external ant. and you can get great results. An HT can be taken with you when you leave the truck. That can be a great survival to asset and increase its' usage. Most areas have radio clubs that have information on the local reperaters and Nets. ARRL sells a repeater guide for the country, very useful when traveling. I live in the armpit , its loaded with repeaters.

[RABID1]

Sorry, here's the site,
http://www.arrl.org

[MDarius]

This is all good info for me. 5 miles isn't much. In most of the area's in Utah / Idaho there are repeaters (from what I understand) and some good IIRL (is that right? Internet something linking project?) that can hook you up. One of the search and rescue guys I was with this weekend said he was stuck in his truck in Wyoming and was able to get a signal out to a trucker on I-80 18 miles away. The trucker phoned this guys family and they came out and rescued him. It was a long, cold night, but he got a signal out on a CB I think it was.

So, the key to range is wattage output, right? Your mobile based unit is 50 watts or better, CB's can be in a wide range, and can you boost a handheld with accessories? I'm just a beginner and don't know much, sorry if I'm asking ignorant questions. Thanks!

[FirstToy]

MDarius,
If you are using it for personal emergencies, remote camping than a in-truck unit will be better than handheld. More power, better range.

CB's only get good range if they have line of sight- even then, it's no where as good as 2M. Not even close. 2M also sounds a lot more clear.

I am getting 2M for the same safety reasons and also for better communication w/ group trips. It is common w/ CB's to loose the back half of the group from the front half (distance, mountain in the way, etc).

I don't have any interest in 2M as a hobby but it is def. a much more powerful tool than I imagined. Lots to learn, but mine is coming soon...

[Sleepy John]

I would recommend two 2 meter radios. Start out with an Yaesu FT 1802. This is a small high powered 2 meter mobile. It has a big bright , easy to read display. I have mine mounted on the stock console of my 76’ FJ40. Its sales for under two hundred dollars. If you buy any ham equipment you must set it up in your home on a 12volt power source and keep the manual close by. You must learn how to use this equipment before mounting it into your rig. They are not easy to master for a newbie.
After a while you should buy a 2 meter handheld. I recommend the yaesu VX 170. They are under 200.
In the back country you NEED the fifty watt radio.

[alvarorb]

Originally Posted by Mark W

Climbers lost in Oregon? Not familiar with that one. But again, were they in hand held range of a repeater?

Mark...

Mark,

I believe so. They were in cell phone range. The only one of the 3 climbers they found had made a call. With a GPS and a HT, they would have made it out. They were on top of the mountain in Western Oregon.


Here's an old link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2255793.shtml


Alvaro

[Mark W]

Okay, those guys. Now I remember.

Of course they were in cell phone coverage too :(


Mark...

[jonb96150]

I just got back from 6 days in Panamint Valley and Death Valley. Using my handheld with a Mirage 35 watt amp and a mag-mount mobile roof antenna I was able to only raise one repeater (Randsburg, Ca.)

The last time I made that trip with a dual band mobile I was able to hit several repeaters. My old mobile could put out 50 watts on high. Maybe the extra wattage was key. It was the same antenna both times.

I wish I had not spent the money on the amp for the handheld, I should have replaced the dead mobile.

[Cruiserdrew]

Originally Posted by jonb96150

I just got back from 6 days in Panamint Valley and Death Valley. Using my handheld with a Mirage 35 watt amp and a mag-mount mobile roof antenna I was able to only raise one repeater (Randsburg, Ca.)

The last time I made that trip with a dual band mobile I was able to hit several repeaters. My old mobile could put out 50 watts on high. Maybe the extra wattage was key. It was the same antenna both times.

I wish I had not spent the money on the amp for the handheld, I should have replaced the dead mobile.

Jon-That's good info. On our trip there in March we are going to map out the repeater coverage at different spots along the way. I have heard that with some elevation you can hit the repeaters around Las Vegas. Did you get on the Bishop repeaters on the way down?

I agree about the hard mount. That, to me, is the best option if you have only one radio. It has better power, likely a better antenna and a more assured power supply.

Before we go I'm going to have a radio chat with ParadiseCruiser to see if we can link up and talk to him from Death Valley and possibly Anza Borrego.

[alvarorb]

Andy,

Our radios can use the WIRES II techonlogy by Yaesu. If Ron has WIRES II one of his radios or uses his PC to access WIRES II, and there's a WIRES II repeater in the area. We can talk.

WIRES II, like Echolink, uses the Internet to expand our radio's coverage.

Regards

Alvaro

[FJ40_owner]

Originally Posted by Mark W

Climbers lost in Oregon? Not familiar with that one. But again, were they in hand held range of a repeater?


ELTs are another story. But they should be reserved for true emergencies. And you should not expect immediate response either. First it has to be received by an overflying aircraft or a sattelite. Then the "authorities" have to be notifed. Then they have to decide what sort of response is merited (remember an ELT just says "here I am", no other info. It can easily be the next day or longer before anything gets underway. And it will seldom be a rescue helicoptor heading straight to you.

I've been involved in my share of ELT responses (aircraft) in the past. Help will get there, but don't expect it to be like calling the fire department.



Mark...

The climber lost on the mountain in OR could have talked to San Fransisco on half a watt fromwhere they were.

I have talked from the smoke tower at Sierra Buttes off HJwy 49 at 10K+ feet to a guy in a car in Modesto CA. Like almost 200+ miles on 5 watts.

Of coarse I know what I am doing n all...

JB

[MDarius]

Originally Posted by FJ40_owner

The climber lost on the mountain in OR could have talked to San Fransisco on half a watt fromwhere they were.

I have talked from the smoke tower at Sierra Buttes off HJwy 49 at 10K+ feet to a guy in a car in Modesto CA. Like almost 200+ miles on 5 watts.

Of coarse I know what I am doing n all...

JB

THIS is what I'm talking about! These guys on Mt. Hood are surrounded by highway all around the base, and if you know what you are doing (i don't, but I can learn), and you can raise ANYBODY, be it in SFO or Australia, or just around the corner, they can get info to rescuers.

I read an article recently on the ELT's. A hiker was soloing in one of the National parks...I forget which one, glacier maybe? And he climbed a cliff, enjoyed the view until after sunset, and realized he couldn't get down. He triggered his ELT, pulled out his emergency blanket, and went to sleep. The Air Force got the signal, contacted local Search and Rescue, assisted with a fly over with their own helicopter (maybe it was a National Guard copter). The guy signaled he was OK and rescue teams got to him within 48 hours of his signal to get him down. Not injured, but a real emergency. You can comment his mental powers if you care to, but I think we've all gotten in over our heads from time to time.

The problem with ELT's is there are 2 kinds. One transmits for 24 hours and one for 48. Hope you can get a signal through, i.e., you're not blocked by cliffs, vegetation, and cloud cover, within that time. I suppose a handheld HAM would have the same limitations though, wouldn't it?

Oh yeah, and the Elt's are in the $500 price range, although you can rent them.