Low sulphur deisel not allowed

[monton]

I just got back from a road trip around washington state and came across a few deisel pumps marked "low sulphur" that said that they could not be used in vehicles of 2007 or newer. What is the deal with this? Are new deisel engines only allowed to use the new deisel that is coming out? It said it can seriously damage these engines... so what do they use now?

I was just a little confused, it seems to be a bit of a catch 22 if you own a brand new deisel.

[roscoFJ73]

So what will 2007 diesels use then? Maybe there is a new ultra clean diesel on the way for next year.

[HZJ60 Guy]

October of this year all diesel in the US will be Ultra Low Sulphur diesel. I dont know what's up with what you saw. The refineries will be adding a lubrication compound that will make the ULSD even MORE lubricating than the old fuel.

[cruiser_guy]

Believe it or not GM in their infinite wisdom have designed the newer diesels to NOT run on bio-diesel!!!!

[monton]

Yeah, but what's the deal with this current deisel actually being able to harm you engine? Deisel engines can practically run on tar (don't worry, I wouldn't actually do this), so why not regular deisel?

[cruiser_guy]

Originally Posted by monton

Yeah, but what's the deal with this current deisel actually being able to harm you engine? Deisel engines can practically run on tar (don't worry, I wouldn't actually do this), so why not regular deisel?

That's a question for the engineers at GM but that is what I have heard from several sources!

[HZJ60 Guy]

Originally Posted by monton

Yeah, but what's the deal with this current deisel actually being able to harm you engine? Deisel engines can practically run on tar (don't worry, I wouldn't actually do this), so why not regular deisel?

It's got to be BUNK. I run my 2001 VW TDI on B99, my 1987 Toyota 2L on B99, (I WILL) my 1994 1HZ on B99, and my brothers 2002 Dodge on B99. No problems anywhere.


TB

[colin 4]

Originally Posted by HZJ60 Guy

October of this year all diesel in the US will be Ultra Low Sulphur diesel. I dont know what's up with what you saw. The refineries will be adding a lubrication compound that will make the ULSD even MORE lubricating than the old fuel.

does anybody happen to know if this is true of the ultra low being released in Canada? If it is do you guys still plan to run conditioner cause that stuff isn't cheap. I talked to a guy who owns a Husky station, here in Alberta they call their diesel "diesel Max" , and he said that certain companies like husky put additives in their fuel and that's why all the truckers go there even though it costs more. He said places like flying J are selling just a base fuel. If that's the case won't it continue that with ultra low sulphur the really cheap diesel might not have much for lubricity? annnnd, what is the new compound?

[108Cruz]

I have read somewhere on on a VW Tdi forum that the ULSD will also be available in Canada at the same time ( Oct. 06 ). It also stated that in Canada the refineries are ahead of the US in switching over their equipment etc. to refine the ULSD.

The Fed's in the US also gave the refineries there until 2010 to comply fully for ULSD. Until then , they can produce a certain percentage of ULSD and a certain amount of reg. LSD. They do not require the gas stations to be 100% ULSD in the fall. Apparently the pumps will have labels on them advising customers of this. The cost of the ULSD is suppose to be a few cents more per gallon and the regular LSD will be cheaper.( people will most likly buy the cheaper diesel until the availibility runs out ))If this is the same in Canada, I'm not sure.

[Technikev]

ULSD will be available in Canada this fall. Some places will also sell regular LSD as well. This is from my mom who is an employee of an Esso bulk plant. She did not elaborate on the costs and retail pricing of this fuel, however.

The additional lubricants in ULSD are added at the refinery. The hydrotreating process to reduce the sulfur also reduces the lubricating properties of the fuel, thus the addition of the lubricants.

-kevin

[chet]

the pumps you saw is the current low sulphur diesel. the new 2007''s will run on ultra low sulphur diesel only to comply with the emmisions regs. I'm sure they will run on LSD but it may run kinda crappy.

[crushers]

[quote=colin 4] If it is do you guys still plan to run conditioner cause that stuff isn't cheap. QUOTE]
i do and recommend it to my customers, cheap insurance...
if you find the conditioner too expensive then my recommendation is to go back to drving a gasser. diesels are not cheap to fix should something go wrong.
i have told people for years that the fuel economy savings of diesels over gassers are quickly offset by repair bills.
same with doing diesel swaps, you can buy a LOT of fuel for the cost of a decent swap.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by monton

Yeah, but what's the deal with this current deisel actually being able to harm you engine? Deisel engines can practically run on tar (don't worry, I wouldn't actually do this), so why not regular deisel?

Tar not recommended, jet fuel, kerosene, or stove maybe. Actually jet grade A or A1 works fine, when I used to work at an airport we fuelled the trucks with jet A. It is used to fuel diesels up north and in very cold climates where the paraffin in diesel starts to get waxy and gel. The problem is that it doesn’t have the same lubricating qualities and can wear out your injection pump. Adding a little ATF to it prevents this.

I now work for a major oil company, at a refinery, diesel comes off a crude oil fractional distillation column no where near tar. Tar is way more viscous and comes off at the bottom of the column and has to be heated to keep it free flowing, it would be rough on the fuel system for sure!

Currently refineries are producing LSD (low sulphur diesel… no not the drug ) federal regulations require that oil companies start producing ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel) which obviously contains far less sulphur; less than or equal to 15 parts per million.

The trouble is if you don’t get the suphur out of the fuel it ends up coming out the tailpipe as sulphur or sulphur dioxide. SO2 is produced when sulphur burns in the catalytic converters of gas powered vehicles, this it turn causes acid rain when the SO2 reacts with sunlight and water in the atmosphere. Canada, and the US I believe, are currently producing LSG (low sulphur gas). The sulphur in diesel adds to the particulate problem too.

The production of these fuels is more costly since plants within the refinery need to be modified or built for further hydrotreating. The refinery that I work at is currently constructing an addition to our diesel hydrotreater to make ULSD.

ULSD should be hitting the pumps this fall, September/October in Canada and the US.

[monton]

I was being facetious about the tar...

[PressOn]

Just a short addition to Rusty's post, in the diesel engine, sulfur is also a big factor in soot production in addition to the sulfur dioxide found in acid rain production. For whatever reason, remove the sulfur and soot production drops big time.

[theMule]

Here it is in a nutshell...

The big auto manufacturers, Ford, Chevy, etc. are trying to please the enviros by making diesels run cleaner than ever before, therefore they are making emissions systems to trap all the harmful sulfur before it emits from the tail pipe. In doing so they have created a very sensitive emissions system for the new trucks, like one said only 15 PPM sulfur, vs regular diesel @ 500 PPM, if you run the traditional diesel it will completely clog the vehicles emissions system, and this is where the damage happens usually needing to replace the emissions equipment. Interesting thing is back some years ago the allowable sulfur content was 2500 PPM until they made them reduce to 500.

[monton]

so the old deisel will harm the new motors, but the new deisel is fine for the old motors? ...maybe with an additive???

[Exiled]

This new diesel is throwing a lot of stuff off kilter...for example, VW will not have any TDI's for the '07 model year. In fact, they're no longer bringing in any more TDIs. I'd considered replacing my current TDI Jetta with a newer one, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen until '08 at least.

So it looks like for new diesel passenger vehicles, it's only Daimler-Chrysler.

[monton]

that's @#&*&@* ing retarded!!! it's a conspiracy to get rid of deisels.

[cruiser_guy]

Folks have suggested putting a quart of ATF in when your fill up for lubrication as well. I've done it once and no apparent harm was done. I think here in Central America we have ultra HIGH sulfur diesel with all the black smoke clouds following the buses and trucks.

[saskdiesel]

Here is an earlier thread.
http://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/88973-new-diesel-fuel-fall.html

I am waiting to see what happens to these early pumps and what it will cost for additives before buying another Toyota diesel.
I guess this had to happen sooner or later.

[monton]

Originally Posted by M John Galt

Not retarded at all, it's a useful attempt to clean up the foul air in cities.

Fair enough. I just don't like the idea of doing away with deisel. Sure, if we all went electric or fuel cell one day, I would be 100 percent behind that. But a VW tdi that gets over 1000 kms out of a tank of deisel also seems like a good idea to me right now.

Driving through Washington State last weekend I saw all these big Ford/Chevy/Dodge gas powered trucks, a lot of them with V-10 engines pulling 5th wheels behind them. I wonder what kind of gas mileage they get. Seems to me they should start making changes in the production of these vehicles. I don't see any of these big types of vehicles in Europe where gas is close to $3/litre. No, I see mostly deisel.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Sulphur in diesels with oxygen in the air = SO2 (sulphur dioxide), number one cause of acid rain in the country in addition to numerous other health and pollution effects. These are Bush era environmental regulations to show how overcalled for they were.. Also, biggest reason there are not more diesels on the road is because of emissions problems from poor-emissions American diesel fuel. After this hickup I think we will be seeing many more diesels on the road. Apparently numerous manufacturers have them slated for production including Toyota, BMW, possibly Honda, and a slew of others... many of which are claiming because of the introduction of ultra low sulphur diesel fuel.. FWIW...

[108Cruz]

I've read that the European / Asian manufactures are just waiting for the US and Canada to bring in ULSD and then there will be an influx of modern Diesel veh's to North America.

[ChuckB]

Great info, very interested to see how this plays out...

[Island Moose]

[quote=crushers]

Originally Posted by colin 4

If it is do you guys still plan to run conditioner cause that stuff isn't cheap. QUOTE]
i have told people for years that the fuel economy savings of diesels over gassers are quickly offset by repair bills..

Wayne, I wonder if you'll need to revise that concept if (when) gasoline hits $1.30/L this summer?....Pray that diesel hovers around a buck.

[monton]

Is this for sale at all yet in the Edmonton area? I'm just wondering what the price is like... or will be. I'm sure everybody will hope for not much of an increase. If it is similar to the cost of biodeisel, how similar are these two products to run, if at all?

[Technikev]

My mother, who works for an Esso bulk plant up in northern BC, is expecting their first order of the ULSD next week. She does not yet know what the cost is, but expect about 5-6 cents per litre extra.

-kevin

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by Exiled

This new diesel is throwing a lot of stuff off kilter...for example, VW will not have any TDI's for the '07 model year. In fact, they're no longer bringing in any more TDIs. I'd considered replacing my current TDI Jetta with a newer one, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen until '08 at least.

So it looks like for new diesel passenger vehicles, it's only Daimler-Chrysler.

If that is the case then they must be somehow reformulating the diesel as well as making it low sulfur. Europe has had low sulphur diesel for years, so why wouldn't they be able to provide cars to run on the new North merican diesel? Not to mention what effect is it going to have on older diesels... aside from lubricity.

[brownbear]

For interest sake I read a manual from Petro Canada, printed when this fuel first came out. (1995 ish) This was the low sulfer fuel, not the ultra low.

They said from tests done they found that in line injection pumps did not have any unusual problems or wear. But the rotory pumps do not fair as well with low lubricity.

So in Question about how will older diesel work on this stuff, I imagine they will be fine, old diesels burn anything. Its the computer designed stuff that might have problems.