1991 FJ75 not DOT approved?

[wakeskate]

I currently live in South America and was considering importing my FJ75 to Canada, but I found an article[1] saying that it wouldn't be DOT approved? Can anybody confirm or deny that?

Thanks

skip down to: Toyota Land Cruiser 75 Series Pickup
[1] http://www.off-road.com/tlc/body_styles/index.html

[nickw]

Look for DOT or SAE marking on all your lights.
Also look to make sure your glass has the right markings (AS1, AS2, etc..).
Do you have daytime running lights?
There is lots of other things.

Here is a recent memo for the concerning vehicles being imported:
http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/cvse/vehicle...d_Vehicles.pdf

Your truck needs to be 15 years old to the month.
Once it gets here I believe you have 45 days to get it through.
Take a read of all the regulations.
Is your truck left hand or right hand drive (just curious)?

Basically it needs to conform to Motor Vehicle Safety Act.
You can find inspection shops that will pass a truck anyways, but they are being cracked down on. But then if you are ever pulled over and they check you are in big crap. Especally if you imported it yourself and purposly did not change things. My advice is just do it legal (and right), then you should never have any problems.

Hppe his helps,
Nick

[crushers]

Here are the regulations in the BC governments own words, this might help:

Guidelines for the importation of vehicles from the US per Transport Canada’s Regulations

Transport Canada requirements

Transport Canada’s standards apply to vehicles that are less than 15 years old, and to buses manufactured on or after January 1, 1971. Vehicles originally manufactured to meet the safety standards of countries other than the United States or Canada are not allowed into Canada, unless they are 15 years or older or are buses manufactured before January 1, 1971, or are entering Canada temporarily.

Vehicles manufactured to meet United States safety standards do not comply with Canadian safety standards. As the importer, you are responsible for determining whether your vehicle complies with Canadian standards, or whether it can be modified to meet these standards after you import it. You cannot import vehicles that cannot be modified to meet Canadian standards. Find out whether your vehicle qualifies for importation under Transport Canada’s Registrar of Imported Vehicle (RIV) Program. The RIV Program ensures that qualifying vehicles imported into Canada are modified, inspected, and certified to meet Canadian safety standards. You can contact the RIV at:

Registrar of Imported Vehicles
Suite 400
405 The West Mall
Toronto ON M9C 5K7
Web site: http://www.riv.ca/

VEHICLES PURCHASED OUTSIDE CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES

The Motor Vehicle Safety Act and Regulations require that all vehicles imported into Canada comply, at the time of importation, with the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards in effect on the date the vehicle was manufactured. Vehicles manufactured for sale in countries other than Canada and the United States do not comply with the requirements of the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Act, CANNOT be altered to comply and CANNOT be imported into Canada. The only exceptions to this rule are vehicles fifteen (15) years old or older as determined by the month and year in which the vehicle was manufactured and buses manufactured before January 1, 1971.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/importation/impxus_e.htm

Transport Canada CL9203(E)

SECTION 1 - THE REGISTRAR OF IMPORTED VEHICLES (RIV)
On April 12, 1995, a new Motor Vehicle Safety Act and revised Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations were proclaimed. The new Act allows vehicles originally manufactured in compliance with US laws for the United States market to be imported into Canada provided they comply at the time of main assembly with mandatory Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (CMVSS) such as CMVSS 210 (seat belt anchorage). The new legislation makes it possible for the vehicle to be modified in certain areas (bumpers, child restraint tether anchorages, daytime running lights and some labeling requirements). To carry out the task of monitoring the importation of vehicles from the United States, purchased at the retail level, Transport Canada has contracted a company called the Registrar of Imported Vehicles to establish and operate a system of inspection and compliance confirmation of imported vehicles. The program is a tightly controlled process of Federal registration, inspection and verification that a US specification vehicle is confirmed compliant to all Canadian Federal safety standards prior to Provincial/Territorial licensing and registration of that vehicle in Canada.
Some of the benefits of this program to Canadians are:

°Ø°Ø it helps ensure the safety of vehicles on Canadian roads,

°Ø°Ø it allows vehicles which do not meet Canadian safety standards in such areas as bumpers, day time
running lights, child restraint tether anchorages and some labeling requirements to be modified after they enter Canada,

°Ø°Ø it assists importers through a support system including a bilingual public response service
(1-888-848-8240)

°Ø°Ø it assists the Government of Canada by developing and maintaining an accurate and comprehensive data base on such importations,

°Ø°Ø it assists Transport Canada in its enforcement efforts,

°Ø°Ø it assists the provinces and territories by enabling checks of vehicles prior to licensing and
registration in Canada to ensure compliance with Canadian safety standards. Upon arrival at the border you will require the vehicle’s title, documents related to its purchase and a valid driver’s license or passport. There must be evidence - Compliance label or manufacturer’s letter - that the vehicle was built and complied to US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards at the time of main assembly. You must have some means of paying the Registrar’s fees, customs charges and taxes - Visa, MasterCard, a certified cheque or money order are all acceptable. Upon arrival at the Registrar’s inspection station you must have proof that your vehicle is not subject to a US recall or that the recall work has already been completed in the US. The Registrar’s fee is $209.00 Cdn (including GST) at Designated Ports and at Non-Designated Ports, in all provinces except Quebec, where the fee is $224.00 Cdn (including GST and QST). A list of Designated Ports follows this section. The importer is responsible for the actual costs of modifying the vehicle. There are also fees and charges resulting from failure to pass the initial inspection within 45 days.

SECTION 2 - GENERAL
VEHICLE TYPES ADMISSIBLE INADMISSIBLE NOTES

All vehicles (except buses) FIFTEEN YEARS OLD OR OLDER. All are admissible,
Notes.
Importer must be able to prove vehicle is fifteen (15) years old
or older determined by month and year of manufacture.

Excerpts from Canada Border Services Agency document “Importing A Vehicle Into Canada”

Importing a Vehicle
Into Canada
RC4140(E) Rev. 05
The information in this publication was accurate when we at the Canada Border Services Agency published it. However, legislative provisions and requirements can change at any time. We make every effort to provide timely updates.

Introduction
If you plan to import a vehicle into Canada, it has to comply with all Canadian import laws. The
vehicle must meet the requirements of the CBSA, Transport Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection
Agency before it can be imported.
Note
Transport Canada defines a vehicle as any vehicle that is capable of being driven or drawn on roads,
by any means other than muscular power exclusively, but does not run exclusively on rails. Trailers, such as recreational, camping, boat, horse, and stock trailers, are considered vehicles, as are wood chippers, generators, or any other equipment mounted on rims and tires.

RIV program exemptions
You can import a vehicle from the United States without registering it into the RIV program if the vehicle is:
°Ω fifteen years or older (excludes buses). You determine the age of a vehicle by the month and year it was manufactured.

Importing vehicles from countries other than the United States
You cannot import a vehicle that was manufactured to meet the safety standards of a country other than the United States or Canada, unless the vehicle is: °Ω fifteen years or older (excludes buses);

Registration for vehicles entering Canada from other countries per RIV

The Registrar of Imported Vehicles has contracted Canadian Tire to perform the required vehicle inspections. A list of inspection centres and their locations can be obtained by using the store search function for Canadian Tire.













Registration for vehicles entering BC from other Provinces per MOT

ICBC

Registering a used Canadian vehicle from another province

In order to register the vehicle, the following is required:
• The Vehicle Registration document
• A "passed" Vehicle Inspection Report from a Designated Inspection Facility in B.C. (To locate an inspection facility near you, please visit the Ministry of Transportation website for a list of inspection facilities, or look in the Yellow Pages under “Vehicle Inspection Service”.)
• If the vehicle is from Nova Scotia, also the Certificate of Title.

If the vehicle is not registered in your name, a signed and dated bill of sale is also required. However, in some cases, a vehicle registration document (or the Certificate of Title, if the vehicle is from Nova Scotia) which is signed by the registered owner of the vehicle and names you as the new owner, is acceptable instead of a bill of sale.

Once the vehicle is registered in B.C., it can then be licensed and insured here. Any Autoplan broker in B.C. can register, licence, and insure the vehicle for you.

Excerpts from BC “Motor Vehicle Act Regulations”

Hours prescribed for lighted lamps

4.01 A person who drives or operates a vehicle on a highway must illuminate the lamps required by this Division

(a) from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, and

(b) at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavourable atmospheric conditions, objects on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 150 m.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2.]

General lighting requirements

4.02 (1) A vehicle on a highway must only be equipped with and use lamps, reflectors or other illuminating devices authorized by this Division or authorized in writing by the director.

(2) A vehicle on a highway must be equipped with lamps equivalent to those provided by the original manufacturer in accordance with the requirements that applied under the *Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), or a predecessor to that Act, at the time of vehicle manufacture.

(3) All lamps, lamp bulbs and reflectors required or permitted by this Division must comply with

(a) the approved standards established by the *Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada) and the applicable SAE standards,

(b) the conditions of use described in this Division, and

(c) the requirements of Table 1 of the Schedule to this Division.

(4) The function of 2 or more lamps or reflectors may be combined if each function meets the following requirements:

(a) no turn signal lamp may be combined optically with a stop lamp unless the stop lamp is extinguished when the turn signal is flashing;

(b) a clearance lamp must not be combined optically with a tail-lamp or identification lamp.

(5)The director may exempt vehicles or classes of vehicles from the requirements of this section.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2; am. B.C. Reg. 135/2003, s. 1.]

Headlamps

4.05 (1) A motor vehicle must be equipped with either one or 2 headlamps mounted on each side of the front of the vehicle and capable of displaying white light.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2.]

Daytime running lamps

4.08 A motor vehicle may be equipped with daytime running lamps, mounted on the front of the vehicle at a height of not less than 30 cm and not more than 2.11 m, that comply with the requirements of the *Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada).

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2.]

Turn signal devices

4.13 (2) A lamp type turn signal system must

(a) have 2 lamps, mounted on the front of the vehicle, that are capable of displaying flashes of white or amber light which are visible to the front,

(b) have 2 lamps, mounted on the rear of the vehicle, that are capable of displaying flashes of red or amber light which are visible to the rear,

(c) be visible on each side of the vehicle at a distance of 100 m in normal sunlight at an angle of 45° from the longitudinal axis of the vehicle, and

(d) include a tell-tale lamp which gives a clear indication that the system is activated.

(3) During the time specified in section 4.01, a semaphore turn signal device must be capable of illumination by light or reflection visible from a distance of 100 m.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2; am. B.C. Reg. 135/2003, s.1.]

Tail lamps

4.15 (1) A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer must be equipped with 2 tail lamps, mounted on the rear of the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer, that are capable of displaying only red light visible from a distance of 150 m to the rear on both sides of the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer at an angle of 45° from the longitudinal axis of the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2.]

Stop lamps

4.17 (1) A motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer on a highway must be equipped with 2 stop lamps, mounted on the rear of the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer, that are visible to the rear on both sides of the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer at an angle of 45° from the longitudinal axis of the motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer.

(3) A stop lamp must be

(a) capable of displaying only red light visible from a distance of 100 m to the rear of the vehicle in normal sunlight,

(b) illuminated exclusively upon application of the service brake, and

(c) mounted on the vehicle at a height not less than 38 cm and not more than 1.83 m.

(5) A vehicle may be equipped with one additional centre-mounted stop lamp that is capable of displaying only red light visible to the rear.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2.]

Reflective devices

4.21 (1) A vehicle must be equipped with at least one red reflector at the rear of the vehicle, either separate or incorporated into a tail lamp, that is mounted at a height of not less than 38 cm and not more than 1.83 m.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a vehicle manufactured before January 1, 1958.

(3) Only amber reflectors may be mounted on the front or side of a vehicle.

(4) Only red reflectors may be mounted on the rear of a vehicle or on the side of the vehicle at or toward the rear of the vehicle.

[en. B.C. Reg. 476/98, s. 2; am. B.C. Reg. 413/99.]



note the differences between "must" and "may"...
still checking on the rear 3 brake light...

[canadam]

Regarding this .pdf:

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/cvse/vehicle...d_Vehicles.pdf


Doesn't this completely contradict it ?

Transport Canada’s standards apply to vehicles that are less than 15 years old, and to buses manufactured on or after January 1, 1971. Vehicles originally manufactured to meet the safety standards of countries other than the United States or Canada are not allowed into Canada, unless they are 15 years or older or are buses manufactured before January 1, 1971, or are entering Canada temporarily.

Any vehicle we've imported to date is 15 years old, or older. From my understanding (quoted from Wayne's post), these vehicles over 15 years old are expempt from DOT standards.

Am I missing something here, or is there a conflict in the literature ?

[nickw]

Originally Posted by canadam

Regarding this .pdf:

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/cvse/vehicle...d_Vehicles.pdf


Doesn't this completely contradict it ?



Any vehicle we've imported to date is 15 years old, or older. From my understanding (quoted from Wayne's post), these vehicles over 15 years old are expempt from DOT standards.

Am I missing something here, or is there a conflict in the literature ?

Take a read here:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/importation/impxus_e.htm

It says:

Originally Posted by Transport Canada

The Motor Vehicle Safety Act and Regulations require that all vehicles imported into Canada comply, at the time of importation, with the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards in effect on the date the vehicle was manufactured. Vehicles manufactured for sale in countries other than Canada and the United States do not comply with the requirements of the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Act, CANNOT be altered to comply and CANNOT be imported into Canada. The only exceptions to this rule are vehicles fifteen (15) years old or older as determined by the month and year in which the vehicle was manufactured and buses manufactured before January 1, 1971.

Meaning after 15 years it can be imported, BUT it still has to meet the requirements in effect the date if was manufactured. Which means Daytime running lights, and all DOT or SAE lights. AS-x glass, etc....

Cheers,
Nick

[crushers]

i guess it is up to interpetation. it could read: can not be altered to comply unless 15 years old or it could read, after 15 years old "The Motor Vehicle Safety Act and Regulations require that all vehicles imported into Canada comply, at the time of importation, with the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards in effect on the date the vehicle was manufactured." doesn't apply...
;^)

[nickw]

I see what you mean Wayne.
I would really like the regs to read as though we don't have to meet them. It would make life easy for all of us. Especially since its a relatively small number of trucks coming in.

Unfortunately, I think they read the other way, and that is how they are being enforced. Not sure how strict they are in Alberta, but here in BC they are starting to crack down.

I think if you read the regs the first sentences applies to all vehicles, whether they are 15 years old or not.

Originally Posted by Transport Canada

The Motor Vehicle Safety Act and Regulations require that all vehicles imported into Canada comply, at the time of importation, with the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards in effect on the date the vehicle was manufactured.

I think the next two sentences are governed by the first one.

Originally Posted by Transport Canada

Vehicles manufactured for sale in countries other than Canada and the United States do not comply with the requirements of the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Act, CANNOT be altered to comply and CANNOT be imported into Canada. The only exceptions to this rule are vehicles fifteen (15) years old or older as determined by the month and year in which the vehicle was manufactured and buses manufactured before January 1, 1971.

Sorry, that is the way it legally reads to me.
Which unfortunately does not fair well for us.
Is there any lawyers among us that can tell us how it legally reads?
Cheers,
Nick

[crushers]

oh i agree with you, no doubt. this is what i mean when it comes to each inspection facility being able to interpet as they see fit.
cheers

[canadam]

I see where it says all in the first sentence... but then it lists 15 years or older as an exception.

EDIT: I see what you mean, it lists the exemption regarding imporation.

[Psilosin]

My 2-bits,

I recently imported a japanese pickup truck, and had a hell time with the provincial inspection. I couldn't even find a shop locally that would even carry out the inspection because the local transport safety officer had threatened them so much over passing japanese imports. His list of issues went beyond the linked memo and included tierods and various suspension parts that he didn't think would be of Canadian standards.

I had to go to a different town for the inspection where obviously their local transport officer views the act differently because they had no problems carrying out the inspection. After an extensive exam and road test my truck got the thumbs up. This was before that Feb8 memo though...

So like you said, it seems like the Act is enforced via interpratation. It would be nice to know what the actual truth is. I don't want to go through the stress of thinking I just imported a 3000lb lawn ornament again! I really like some of the unique japanese vehicles but if it turns out, that to pass inspection, they need Canadian spec tail lights etc then it kind of limits imports to vehicles that look the same as their counterparts here especially as we head into 90's imports where things like headlight lenses are not often generic anymore.

[nickw]

Originally Posted by Psilosin

My 2-bits,

I recently imported a japanese pickup truck, and had a hell time with the provincial inspection. I couldn't even find a shop locally that would even carry out the inspection because the local transport safety officer had threatened them so much over passing japanese imports. His list of issues went beyond the linked memo and included tierods and various suspension parts that he didn't think would be of Canadian standards.

I had to go to a different town for the inspection where obviously their local transport officer views the act differently because they had no problems carrying out the inspection. After an extensive exam and road test my truck got the thumbs up. This was before that Feb8 memo though...

So like you said, it seems like the Act is enforced via interpratation. It would be nice to know what the actual truth is. I don't want to go through the stress of thinking I just imported a 3000lb lawn ornament again! I really like some of the unique japanese vehicles but if it turns out, that to pass inspection, they need Canadian spec tail lights etc then it kind of limits imports to vehicles that look the same as their counterparts here especially as we head into 90's imports where things like headlight lenses are not often generic anymore.

Where are you located (just wondering)?

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by Psilosin

My 2-bits,

I recently imported a japanese pickup truck, and had a hell time with the provincial inspection. I couldn't even find a shop locally that would even carry out the inspection because the local transport safety officer had threatened them so much over passing japanese imports. His list of issues went beyond the linked memo and included tierods and various suspension parts that he didn't think would be of Canadian standards.

I had to go to a different town for the inspection where obviously their local transport officer views the act differently because they had no problems carrying out the inspection. After an extensive exam and road test my truck got the thumbs up. This was before that Feb8 memo though...

So like you said, it seems like the Act is enforced via interpratation. It would be nice to know what the actual truth is. I don't want to go through the stress of thinking I just imported a 3000lb lawn ornament again! I really like some of the unique japanese vehicles but if it turns out, that to pass inspection, they need Canadian spec tail lights etc then it kind of limits imports to vehicles that look the same as their counterparts here especially as we head into 90's imports where things like headlight lenses are not often generic anymore.

Find out their name, then talk to the inspector, and depending on the results, talk to their super; make sure they are applying the regulations...not their own world view. If your local VI shop is following the book, and getting pressured to not inspect certain vehicles...that my friend is abuse of uniform.

But first, find out all sides, to make sure this is not a he said, she said, he said, that got blown out of context.

It is nice that Toyota LandCruiser is Mr Potatoe Head in many respects, and items will cross over. Other makes and models I am not sure about.

gb

[Gold Boy]

I thinking of changing the bulb on the front fenders side fog light to an orange light bulb, this would make more of a side marker light.


GB

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by Gold Boy

I thinking of changing the bulb on the front fenders side fog light to an orange light bulb, this would make more of a side marker light.


GB

CORRECTION EDIT

Why? Per regulation, reflectors are not required on the sides of the vehicle, unless "A vehicle with an overall width of 2.05 m or more, or a trailer or semitrailer having a gross weight in excess of 1 400 kg". However, if you want the reflectivity, get some cheap red and amber paste on reflectors, and place them appropriately on the vehicle sides: Red at the rear and amber at the front. You must have two red reflectors on the rear of the vehicle (which may be part of the tail lamp). All our Landcruiser rear tail lamps have the reflector built in.

Side marker lamps say "may" through the entire section 4.21

END EDIT

gb

[Gold Boy]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

get some cheap red and amber paste on reflectors, and place them appropriately on the vehicle sides: Red at the rear and amber at the front.

gb

Good Idea

GB

[Stone]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

Why? It is not required for the front. But, if you want, get some cheap red and amber paste on reflectors, and place them appropriately on the vehicle sides: Red at the rear and amber at the front.

gb

Yup...that's what I did. Went to Crappy Tire and found some round stick on reflectors ($3.49/pr) that had DOT stamps on them. Amber in front and red in the back, and they won't be able to argue that it's "not DOT approved".

[Gold Boy]

Originally Posted by Gold Boy

I thinking of changing the bulb on the front fenders side fog light to an orange light bulb, this would make more of a side marker light.

It was a "recomendation" after the import DOT inspection last year, they did not say any thing about the rear reflector...
Thanks
GB

[brownbear]

This page is now linked to the importing FAQ in Diesel tech. Diesel tech is also the spot for posting any importing questions regardless of series of Land Cruiser.

Beanz2 please feel free to move this to Diesel if you wish. Thanks

[lshobie]

This inspector should be reported for hs activities. I have heard that he has gone after tons of imports - and in a not so nice way.

There are ways to complain and everyone who has a problem should report this individual. Here are a couple of ways to do it.

http://www.ombudsman.bc.ca/

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/osmv/index.htm

Direct contact for the Office of the Superintendant of trnasportation - to find out complaint process against one of the inspectors.

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/osmv/information/contact.htm

Al Peatt FPB Investigations Victoria Complaint Analyst 250 493-1194



Christine Morris OMBD Victoria Office VICTORIA Complaints Analyst 250 356-5723

Colleen M Meade FIN Contact Center Surrey Complaint & Inquiry Officer 604 953-5203

Diane Johnston OMBD Vancouver Office Vancouver Complaints Analyst 604 538-3735

Dirk Ryneveld Q.C. OPCC Victoria Office Victoria Police Complaint Commissioner 604 660-2385

General Enquiries OPCC Victoria Office Victoria Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner 604 660-2385

General Enquiries OPCC Vancouver Office Vancouver Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner 604 660-2385

Glen Pilling FPB Investigations Victoria Complaint Analyst 250 836-3895

Janet Hacker OMBD Victoria Office VICTORIA Complaints Analyst 250 356-5712

Kim Low FIN Credit Unions & Trusts Department Surrey Complaint & Information Officer 604 953-5340


Marilyn Alamanos FIN Contact Center Surrey Complaint & Inquiry Officer 604 953-5204

Patricia Cormie MCF Director CF and Community Services - KSA Victoria Complaints Resolution Consultant 250 952-4770

Peter Nagati FPB Investigations Victoria Complaint Analyst 250 356-1657
Quality Improvement MCF Quality Improvement - EAH Cranbrook Interior Regional Quality Improvement/ Complaints 250 417-4176

Rick Post FPB Investigations Victoria Complaint Analyst 250 542-6479

Rob Thomson FPB Investigations Victoria Complaint Analyst 604 504-4406

Tom Purgas SG Lower Mainland Headquarters & Regional Office Burnaby Complaint Coordinator Headquarters 604 660-5010


If one of those people can't help you - I am sure someone can.

Regards

[Eric Winkworth]

It surprises me that they even let RHD's into Canada, not to say I won't own one someday, just find it funny/

[lshobie]

I'm not sure why RHD would be an issue really. I am sure that all teh RHD vehicles in canada would make uip less than .05 percent of the vehicles on the road. They allow boats with RHD, atv's that drive in the centre, seadoos that go on water and have no brakes, you can fly most planes on both sides etc. There were RHD vehcicles in canada before it became popular to import them - the diplomats drive them here in ottawa.

I know what you are saying though - it is surprising that the gov't is openminded enough to let them in. This is why the importers need to form an association - or one day the gov't will stop the flow, and businesses will close thier doors.

[Eric Winkworth]

Well said.

Exactly