More Power from 13BT

[canadian bum]

Is there any little tricks to getting more milage and power out of this engine?

[lowenbrau]

Get a 2.5" turbo outlet from a Supra and follow it with a 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust with a free flowing muffler or no mufler at all. Change your air filter when it's dirty. Adjust your valves religiously. Otherwise, power and mileage are an either/or thing. I've been meaning to try increasing the boost a couple of pounds and dialing back the boost compensator to match. It might help with the mileage but I'm interested in reducing heat.

[canadian bum]

How do you increase the boost pressure?

[lowenbrau]

Grainger valve seems to be the ticket for quick and dirty boost adjust.

http://www.dawesdevices.com/boost.html

or make one yourself for $10 of home depot stuff

search this forum for 'grainger'

[Greg_B]

Or you can shim the wastegate. I will be finalized playing with this, and having some comparision numbers soon.

gb

[Tapage]

more diesel with more boost ( 12 PSI max safe in my concept ) = more power .. but with Propane Inyection ( interccoler also ) you can get more power with less diesel.

[canadian bum]

How does it use more diesel. Wouldn't you have to change the injectors or increase the fuel pump. Aren't you just adjusting the waste gate so that it allows a higher boost pressure before kicking out?

[Technikev]

More boost just means that you can burn more fuel with out getting a bunch of black exhaust. Those guys that turn up their boost (only modification) and claim to have more power were probably running a bit rich to begin with and are now burning the excess fuel and making power. More fuel with not more air = high EGT.

If you were to add more fuel you would likely also get higher boost pressure. This is a result of more gasses spewing out the exhaust manifold to turn your turbo faster. Assuming that your wastegate will not release the added pressure, the increased boost forces more air into the intake manifold allowing more fuel go be burned efficiently creating more power. This is why grainger valves or wastegate shimming are needed. You need higher manifold pressures to burn the added fuel.

When you stomp on it, you get a puff of black exhaust until the turbo gets a chance to spin up forcing more oxygen into the cumbustion process to burn the excess fuel.

More fuel equals more power. Higher boost just allows your engine to burn all of it making power and so it doesn't fall out your tail pipe in a big black cloud.

-kevin

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by canadian bum

Is there any little tricks to getting more milage and power out of this engine?

For more milage only use the top part of the right pedal.
For more power, introduce that pedal to the floor, and never let them part! 8^)

I think that most people find that the 13B-T makes adequate power as it is. I would definately run with no wastegate (Tapage says 12PSI Max Boost but I think that's indirect injection thinking.... These engines are Direct Injected and can handle boost well into the 20's and 30's before they experience pressures anything like an IDI at 12psi boost.)

The fundamental problem is that the stock turbo only makes about 17-20lbs boost. That's just getting started for a tweaked DI engine.

If you REALLY want to play, you follow the same path that the big dawgs do in the diesel game. You get your injectors re-nozzled, you crack open the manual to the 'Inejction Pump' section and figure out how to turn up the fuel, you ditch that teeny stock turbo for a bigger one, you install trubo headers, polish and port the head, take your cam to a race shop and get it re-ground with higher lift and longer duration. insteall head studs. o-ring the head. polish the rods. install twin turbo's or a blower. Nitrous and propane are serious potentials, as is water/methano injection, and of course intercooling. The recipe for making power is well established and not at all mysterious.

Sadly, at ih8mud, here, you'll get some banter about whether 12 or 15 lbs of boost is best, whereas other sites out there are playing with 50lbs of boost and all of the above I've mentioned on engines with the same basic design philosphy as the 13B-T. There's simply no reason this cannot be done. I would recon that the 13B-T is good for 250-300HP if anyone was willing to drop $10K into it like some Cummins/Powerstoke owners do on their plants.

Peter Straub

[crushers]

Peter,
i beleive the idea here is comprimise, drivability as well as more power. most on this list use their trucks as daily drivers and not like the other lists where the mods are for off[road or impracticale on road use.

i highly doubt a 300 hp 13BT will get decent fuel milage... but if you can make it happen i have a donor 13BT for you to play with.

[canadian bum]

How do you take the waste gate out and is it a really good idea to do so? Also what do the turbo's run factory, for boost.

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

(Tapage says 12PSI Max Boost but I think that's indirect injection thinking.... These engines are Direct Injected and can handle boost well into the 20's and 30's before they experience pressures anything like an IDI at 12psi boost.)

Yep you are right Peter, i was think in 3B IDI. Are you sure that the 13B ( rotative pump ) DI boost at 17 to 20 PSI in stock stup . ?

All kits that I saw in past buy for a 3B IDI engine comes with specific 10 PSI max boost, yae I know maybe to save the life of the engine for more Km, or to prevent crak old ans aoutof shape engines.

Anycase also I know that with money the heaven is the limit .. maybe is easy voy a V8 350 and put it in my HJ that make a turbo setup, ported intake headers, intercooler, propane inyection, inyectors and adecuate diesel pump to deliver the proper amount of diesel.

just my 5 cents ..

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by crushers

i beleive the idea here is comprimise, drivability as well as more power. most on this list use their trucks as daily drivers and not like the other lists where the mods are for off[road or impracticale on road use.

If ih8mud exisits to serve only those that are interested in compromise, drivability and good on road performance then clearly I am in the wrong place. But I thought you wanted my input. If that's no longer the case, I'll happily move along.

Originally Posted by Tapage

Yep you are right Peter, i was think in 3B IDI. Are you sure that the 13B ( rotative pump ) DI boost at 17 to 20 PSI in stock stup . ?

I'm not 100% sure on the 13B-T. I've left mine bone stock so far. on my 12H-T I closed off the wastegate and put a gauge on it and it made 17PSI before the red turbo light came on and you could hear the backpressure in the stock exhaust straining to get out. I would assume the stock 13B-T will make about the same. I get similar boost results on my AXT3B with the wastegate closed, as does Marc Ritchie on his 3B with a junkyard turbo. So, this is what I am basing the 17-20psi number upon.

Originally Posted by canadian bum

How do you take the waste gate out and is it a really good idea to do so? Also what do the turbo's run factory, for boost.

You don't really take the wastegate out. What you do is disconnect the air line from the pressure side of the compressor to the diaphram on the wastegate actuator. In this manner, the wastegate will be held closed by the strength of the diaphram itself. This mod is stupid easy to do. It's conceivable that at really high exhaust pressures that the gasses can force the wastegate open against the diaphram. I don't know for SURE whether this happens, but I suppose it's possible.

More extreme would include actually welding the gate shut, or even better, replacing the dump housing with a non-wastegated version to help streamline the airflow.

As to whether this idea is 'Good' or not, I would suggest that nothing in this game is 'Good' or Bad, positive or negative, 'safe or unsafe, or whatever moralistic term you want to apply. Nothing that we are talking about is going to get you to Heaven or keep you out of Hell. Running no wastegate means that 100% of otherwise lost energy from the exhaust is used to move air into the cylendar, your engine runs more efficiently with the increased compression ratio (more on this later), more fuel can be burned should you be so inclined, more stress is on the head bolts, head gasket, rings, engine bearings, etc. How our good Lord Ganesha feels about this is well beyond my expertise.

Peter Straub

[crushers]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

If ih8mud exisits to serve only those that are interested in compromise, drivability and good on road performance then clearly I am in the wrong place. Peter Straub

of course i am sure that your extremist ideas are welcome here. i, for one, find them quite entertaining.
;^)

[tlcruiserman]

Originally Posted by crushers

of course i am sure that your extremist ideas are welcome here. i, for one, find them quite entertaining.
;^)

I second Wayne's comments and would like to add, that every time I think I have some crazy idea and I am going way overboard, I just look here and see what you are up to and know that i am not that crazy and my ideas are that that overboard (tee hee)

cheers,

Michael

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

I'm not 100% sure on the 13B-T. I've left mine bone stock so far. on my 12H-T I closed off the wastegate and put a gauge on it and it made 17PSI before the red turbo light came on and you could hear the backpressure in the stock exhaust straining to get out. I would assume the stock 13B-T will make about the same. I get similar boost results on my AXT3B with the wastegate closed, as does Marc Ritchie on his 3B with a junkyard turbo. So, this is what I am basing the 17-20psi number upon.

wouu you are agresive .. ! close off teh wastegate .. ! really no fear with raise the head ?

[canadian bum]

So you guys have run your engines without the wastegate hooked up and haven't had any problems with it? I'll get a boost gage to see what its running at without the wastegate.

[crushers]

now remember if you practice what peter suggests then you are doing it at your own risk...
that is an expensive engine to be popping the head on...

[canadian bum]

Has it happened before? What does the red light mean to much boost? All I really want to know is if the engine going to fly apart when running that much boost?

[Technikev]

I'm also kind of curious about the "red turbo light". What exactly does it signify and when will you see it? Thanks.

-kevin

[Greg_B]

The little red..or orange light on the dash is designed to come on at 15lbs boost, and let you know something is wrong...so to speak. The test to check the light is explained in the 3B/13BT manual.

hth's

gb

[crushers]

i tell my customers "when the red light comes on it is time to pull out your wallet..."
cheers

[canadian bum]

so what your saying is no 15lbs of boost?

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

Running no wastegate means that 100% of otherwise lost energy from the exhaust is used to move air into the cylendar, your engine runs more efficiently with the increased compression ratio (more on this later), more fuel can be burned should you be so inclined, more stress is on the head bolts, head gasket, rings, engine bearings, etc. Peter Straub

Yes...thank you. I have not found any further reading to explain why ratio's of 24:1 and higher are not used with DI engines. My uneducated mind says it is simply economy of scale, where everything would have to be huge to stand up to the forces, and nothing to do with pumping losses, as any pumping loss on the compression stroke would be made up for in the "bang" stroke. Been way to busy lately to dedicate much time to research either...

My "little" experiment with shimming on the BJ74 is turning out well. Couple more adjustment days and I should be set where I want to be with this "moderate" application.

I look forward to playing with a 13BT in Poo. That will be the experiment...

gb

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by canadian bum

so what your saying is no 15lbs of boost?

I am not saying anything, other then the factory warning system is designed to come on if 15lbs or greater of boost is sensed. If you want to try more...it's your head!

gb

[canadian bum]

What psi does the wastegate open at? And what is the turbo running for boost right now?

[crushers]

factory is 8 lbs, i have run 15 psi safely but the higher the boost the more heat is generated till the extra boost is actually negilated (is that a word?) by the heat produce...
so the extra pressure is jut creating stress on your components when there is no need...
cheers