More Power from 13BT

[crushers]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

I have been learning that fuel without air, in addition to exessive EGT's, is energy out the pipe. The stated exersize of my playing around with this BJ74 was moderation, decreasing EGT's, trying to use all the available fuel..which would equal more efficient power. With no fuel increase I believe this has been achived; the increase in power is "real" noticable. The next step for me before adjusting anything higher is: injector rebuild (make sure the fuel in getting there at the correct pressure), time the pump (make sure it is getting there at the correct time), and increase the exhaust size (make sure the engine is allowed to exhaust with as little back pressure as possible). Then we will see what the EGT's are, and if it warrents an increase in fuel...which it may well

gb

you want to burn all the fuel then run propane injection...

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by crushers

you want to burn all the fuel then run propane injection...

Perhaps at some point, however right now I am learning about air. Air is where the powers at...not the fuel.

My limited reading on Propane thus far is leading to Propane not being a catalyst, simply rather another fuel...




Which of course requires more air.


gb

[crushers]

now that is an interesting point, where have you been reading this info. i need to be more informed about this...

if air is where the power is then what changes when you crank up the fuel? with your reasoning then more fuel should equal less power...

[Stone]

The way I read Greg's posts is that you do need both air and fuel to make power, but in our case there was still unbrunt fuel in our setup as evidenced by the black smoke out the tailpipe. Adding more air into our system without increasing the fuel in effect releases the energy from the unbrunt fuel giving more power without having to use more fuel. Of course if you want to make even more power, you would have to crank the boost and fuel up.

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by crushers

now that is an interesting point, where have you been reading this info. i need to be more informed about this...

if air is where the power is then what changes when you crank up the fuel? with your reasoning then more fuel should equal less power...

Apparently the diesel engine works in the “excess air” mode (lets ignore the throttle body 3B). As you know, engine speed is controled by the amount of fuel injected in the intake phase. Simply put, you increase fuel to take advantage of the available air. You will reach a point where more fuel does nothing productive. Increase the available air (density), gives the fuel the oxygen to combust, creating more heat energy. You will reach the point with excess fuel where excess heat energy can not be off loaded by convection, conduction or radiation.

Part of Peters post hit the nail on the head

Originally Posted by Behemoth60

“you ditch that teeny stock turbo for a bigger one, you install trubo headers, polish and port the head, take your cam to a race shop and get it re-ground with higher lift and longer duration. insteall head studs. o-ring the head. polish the rods. install twin turbo's or a blower.” ...

What he wrote is all about air. It seems anything you can do to increase air density and the engines ability to move the air is where the quest for power in a diesel begins; Hence, air is what makes the power. Once you've looked after air, you build the engine to withstand the forces created with compression ignition, and to handle the heat energy of combustion, trying to get as much of that heat energy to the rear wheels.

It seems 35% is about the best we can do in converting the internal combustions heat energy to the rear wheels. A turbo increases this percentage. A turbo in a diesel application pushes air, not fuel; again confirming it is the air (lets ignore increased compression numbers too for now) where power starts.

At least this is what my sleep addled memory and lern'n is telling me right now. Always open to corrections and education.

Time to bunk soon.

gb

[crushers]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

Part of Peters post hit the nail on the head



At least this is what my sleep addled memory and lern'n is telling me right now. Always open to corrections and education.

Time to bunk soon.

gb

that explaines everything...
;^)

[tlcruiserman]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

Perhaps at some point, however right now I am learning about air. Air is where the powers at...not the fuel.

My limited reading on Propane thus far is leading to Propane not being a catalyst, simply rather another fuel...




Which of course requires more air.


gb

Air is power but only part of the equation, look at Charles’s law (one of the gas laws) as we compress a gas the temperature will rise in the case of a diesel engine around 1300–1650 degrees F. The more air you supply via a turbo the higher the temperature. This can increase power if you were not getting an efficient burn without the higher temperature, but that is a narrow margin. After that point you are not gaining any more power from the burn with the same amount of fuel. You can only increase the power by adding more fuel to burn. So you must add air and fuel to increase power (in this example I am talking about a well tuned diesel engine to begin with). You will also reach a point when too much air/fuel will raise the temperature beyond operating specs and shorten the life of the engine or achieve engine failure.

For those of you that have found adding a turbo increased the power without adding more fuel I would say your engine was not tuned to begin with and had more fuel than could be used efficiently in the combustion chamber.

So if you look at what can be done to add more power aside from turbo charging you can look at tuning the engine in several areas. Are you getting as much air as possible at the ambient temperature, this could involve air intake and air filters, do you have the best ratio of air to fuel on your diesel, for power if you have more fuel than air you ensure that you are not lacking in fuel (usually exhaust is black) that is a crude way of tuning for power (very bad for fuel economy). Are you getting enough fuel for the amount of air you are putting in the chamber. Rule of thumb as an injector wears out it usually is allow more fuel into the chamber. If the injector is defective or clogged then it will allow less. The final one that requires a very good understanding of your diesel engine is the timing, are you injecting the fuel at the best time to take advantage of temp. in the chamber.

On the other side if you have a turbo you can look at everything above and a few more things. How much air/fuel can I get away with without engine failure. How can I get the air temp as low as possible or closest to the ambient temp (aftercooler/intercooler). In order to get as much air/fuel you can also look at bigger injectors (or pump in extreme cases) or bigger more efficient turbo charger (or supercharger combo in extreme cases)

Ok just some Diesel 101 stuff to add to the discussion.

Cheers,

Michael

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by tlcruiserman

do you have the best ratio of air to fuel on your diesel, ...How much air/fuel can I get away with without engine failure....In order to get as much air/fuel you can also look at bigger injectors...Cheers,Michael

As Peter has said on more then one occation...that's gasser thinking. Forget air/fuel ratio (for the most part). The diesel operates in "excess air" mode. Each stoke moves the same amount of air...period. The only way to get more air in there is to increase density. Increasing air density will create the situation where more fuel can be burned, creating more heat energy. Making the pathway in and out less turbulent helps to of course...

Air makes power...

hth's

gb

[crushers]

till Peter actually puts into practice what he speaks then it is all just hearsay...
he has good ideas and can talk up a storm but i want to see proof...

[tlcruiserman]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

As Peter has said on more then one occation...that's gasser thinking. Forget air/fuel ratio (for the most part). The diesel operates in "excess air" mode. Each stoke moves the same amount of air...period. The only way to get more air in there is to increase density. Increasing air density will create the situation where more fuel can be burned, creating more heat energy. Making the pathway in and out less turbulent helps to of course...

Air makes power...

hth's

gb

That is not gasser thinking is is simantics if you don't like "more air" I will use "air density". All is valid and true specifically for diesel engines If you like I can say temperature generated by specific air density at given compression mixed with specific fuel injected. You have it a little backwords - the more air density that is compressed generates more heat to ignite the fuel that is injected. how complete or effcient that fuel is burned and how much of it will burn determines how much power, all the air density does is determine how high the temp will be for the ignition the rest depends on the fuel because the fuel is what is ignited, expands, and pushes the piston.


With a diesel UNLIKE a gass engine the air density will determine how hot the compressed air will be leading to how complete or what kind of a burn you will get when injecting fuel into the hot, high compressed air. A Gasser has a set ignition caused by a spark plug and ignites an air/fuel mixuture, completely different.

Cheers,

Michael

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by tlcruiserman

That is not gasser thinking is is simantics if you don't like "more air" I will use "air density". All is valid and true specifically for diesel engines If you like I can say temperature generated by specific air density at given compression mixed with specific fuel injected. You have it a little backwords - the more air density that is compressed generates more heat to ignite the fuel that is injected. how complete or effcient that fuel is burned and how much of it will burn determines how much power, all the air density does is determine how high the temp will be for the ignition the rest depends on the fuel because the fuel is what is ignited, expands, and pushes the piston.


With a diesel UNLIKE a gass engine the air density will determine how hot the compressed air will be leading to how complete or what kind of a burn you will get when injecting fuel into the hot, high compressed air. A Gasser has a set ignition caused by a spark plug and ignites an air/fuel mixuture, completely different.

Cheers,

Michael

Micheal

Let me change to this then: Air is the beginning of making power. Better?

Air density is more appropriate, as even the gasser takes in it’s cubic inches (or CC’s) of air every two revolutions. The air density is less at idle then full throttle, as when the throttle is closed the cubic inches contain very little air density…if I have all that right in my mind.

As you know, the diesel is not limited by this, and is throttled by fuel. In that sense you are correct, you increase the fuel ratio with the air in the cylinder with the throttle, to create a bigger bang, more heat, more energy, etc.

You can not increase the charge density more then ambient air pressure with a gasser at full open throttle, or a diesel at any time, unless you compress the air, (Charge density---which increases oxygen) As you say, anything you can do to assist the ease of air flow (high pressure to low pressure areas) will assist the engine to breath, but with a N/A diesel you are not changing charge density. That was my point about fuel/air ratio.

Charge density will determine how much oxygen is available to support the combustion process. The more oxygen, then better the combustion.

Air is a gas. As such it can compress and expand. The internal combustion engine makes us of this. It is the result of the air and fuel reacting through a chemical process that is expanding in the cylinder (rapid oxidation). I do want to do more reading on this process as it relates to diesel cycle piston engine. Thanks…

The comments about compressed air temps I can not reply to with anything of substance. That is an area I want to sink my teeth into, and am not finding a lot of information (increased charge air effect on engine structures, increased heat of compression effects benefits, etc).

As always, open to correction and learning. Let me be the one to ask the stupid questions, make stupid statements, and show my ignorance to the world

gb

[tlcruiserman]

Originally Posted by Greg_B

Micheal

Let me change to this then: Air is the beginning of making power. Better?

Air density is more appropriate, as even the gasser takes in it’s cubic inches (or CC’s) of air every two revolutions. The air density is less at idle then full throttle, as when the throttle is closed the cubic inches contain very little air density…if I have all that right in my mind.

As you know, the diesel is not limited by this, and is throttled by fuel. In that sense you are correct, you increase the fuel ratio with the air in the cylinder with the throttle, to create a bigger bang, more heat, more energy, etc.

You can not increase the charge density more then ambient air pressure with a gasser at full open throttle, or a diesel at any time, unless you compress the air, (Charge density---which increases oxygen) As you say, anything you can do to assist the ease of air flow (high pressure to low pressure areas) will assist the engine to breath, but with a N/A diesel you are not changing charge density. That was my point about fuel/air ratio.

Charge density will determine how much oxygen is available to support the combustion process. The more oxygen, then better the combustion.

Air is a gas. As such it can compress and expand. The internal combustion engine makes us of this. It is the result of the air and fuel reacting through a chemical process that is expanding in the cylinder (rapid oxidation). I do want to do more reading on this process as it relates to otto cycle piston engine. Thanks…

As always, open to correction and learning. Let me be the one to ask the stupid questions, make stupid statements, and show my ignorance to the world

gb

Come on now Greg you have seen enough of my post to know I can be just as stupid as the next guy

alright you have the otto cycle verse the diesel cycle that is more than most

Up until 5 years ago I knew everthying about gas engines raced them in many forms but knew nothing about diesels until my first ebaymotors purchase of my 1984 BJ42 I was hooked from that point on. Lately I meet a guy who is into tractor pulling Big naurly Diesel tractor pulling and he is schooling me quite a bit on diesel engines and what to do to get the most out of them. He looked over my 3B, 13BT and 1HD-FT and he was pretty impressed with the design, and that is saying a lot from guy who builds and tunes diesel engines to produce over a thousand HP and rediculous torque.

Cheers,

Michael

[crushers]

okay so how do we get 500 hp out of a 1HZ?

[Stone]

Originally Posted by crushers

okay so how do we get 500 hp out of a 1HZ?

Probably rip it out and drop in a 1HD-T.

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by crushers

okay so how do we get 500 hp out of a 1HZ?

Well, if I have this right, and if you believe that charge air density and the ability to move that air is the basis of power (as it relates to this discussion) then the precups will likely be your stumbling block (other then some minor factors such as if the crank, headbolts, etc can withstand the load, and how efficently the passageways flow that air...and probably some other things I have forgot). I think Peter is on his way to blueprinting this, and I hope he completes this project.

If you don't believe the above, then crank your fuel and air, add some propane and let us know how things work out. Hang on...I think you did this already

Seriously though, I am sure some Oz boards will have this answer, and also results. They have been playing with this engine far longer then any of us in North America.

gb

[crushers]

that only got me about 1/2 way there...
anyway it was a retorical question...
cheers

[Behemoth60]

Originally Posted by crushers

till Peter actually puts into practice what he speaks then it is all just hearsay...
he has good ideas and can talk up a storm but i want to see proof...

Ouch!

Indeed, I've yet to build the Turblown 1HZ, as I have come to call it.

But in anticiapation of such a project, I've done a lot of research... practically a doctoral thesis on the theory and practice of power from internal combustion engines.

Nothing I am saying is new or unproven. There really are relatively small diesel engines out there running upwards of 150lbs boost, and making gobs of power and freakish torque. Spend some time at a small town tractor pull and see what a 2 cyl. John Deer engine can do when a farmer turns up the fuel and boost on that baby.

My only contribution, thus far, is to bring these long since proven ideas for making power to the Toyota diesel crowd. At this time, a lack of funds and need prevents me from putting this into practice.

As to Greg/Michael's conversation, I'll add this...
The total air mass, typically measured in CFM or lbs-min or some metric equivalent thereof, is just the start of making power. Indeed, air mass is the basic limitation of power, as Greg has said, but how efficiently you move that air is where engine building becomes an art. A very well built 2.8l I6 engine can make 400hp, more than many 8L+ big blocks. (someone insert that replacement for displacement saying) There's the dreaded volumetric efficiency, not to mention the power lost to simply puping that air through a zig-zag maze of pipes, intakes and valves. The difference between engiens that win races and those that are in the pits re-fuelling is often in the efficiency of moving the air. Then again, apply $30,000 to a big block with twin turbos and it can quite easily make 1,500hp and 1,000 ft-lbs.

- Technically, in the evil world of thermodynamocs, the diesel cylce is called the Carnot cycle.

That's all I have to add. Greg has this well under control.

Peter Straub

[Radd Cruisers]

What Peter says has merit, he has confirmed tha fact a direct inject motor can make big HP and torque.


For instance the Yanmar engine which was purchased from toyota 4.2litre and massaged to make 400HP for many service hrs is a good base.

One oversight with the Yanmar compared to the toyota is the big advantage of cold sea water for air to aftercooler/intercooler.


It was mentioned the smaller valves with the 24 valve head cannot withtake the heat of 20+ PSI from the turbo, this could be true without a cold water to air intercooler.

So why are limiting discussion for running a aftermarket turbo on the 13BT plus air to air or water to air intercooler completely seperate from the radiator?


This is all interesting and hope to see more research on how viable a 300 HP reliable direct injected engine is.

Rob

[crushers]

Originally Posted by Radd Cruisers

What Peter says has merit, he has confirmed tha fact a direct inject motor can make big HP and torque.


Rob

actually he has not confirmed anything at this point. till the TB/HZ is done it is all hearsay.
he has all the parts sitting there, let's get it done.

[Technikev]

Originally Posted by tlcruiserman

With a diesel UNLIKE a gass engine the air density will determine how hot the compressed air will be leading to how complete or what kind of a burn you will get when injecting fuel into the hot, high compressed air. A Gasser has a set ignition caused by a spark plug and ignites an air/fuel mixuture, completely different.

This is why factory turbos have a lower compression ratio. With boost from a turbo (higher air density) the higher the combustion temps will be. NOT to be confused with EGT's.

Anyway, I have heard, and take this with a big grain of salt, that a diesel can create more power with extremely high boost and a very (for a diesel) low compression ratio. One big problem with this is getting a diesel engine to start with a compression ratio of 12 to 1 and no boost (at startup). All this may be theoretically true. Well, maybe with the correct amount of boost, fuel, the planets being in correct alignment and holding your tongue just right.

-Kevin

[Greg_B]

Originally Posted by Technikev

This is why factory turbos have a lower compression ratio. With boost from a turbo (higher air density) the higher the combustion temps will be. NOT to be confused with EGT's.

That is what I used to think too Kevin, however in my reading I have discovered it was more to do with the IDI and DI issue. That explaination still does not totally sit well with me, and am open change. If you're bulding an engine for large charge air, then would have to likely lower the CR, to not exceed engine structures at peak combustion pressure. Perhaps my reading has been incorrect. If you have some details, let me know please.

Originally Posted by Technikev

Anyway, I have heard, and take this with a big grain of salt, that a diesel can create more power with extremely high boost and a very (for a diesel) low compression ratio. -Kevin

Makes sense, as the increased charge air is added to the CR, and would increase peak combustion pressure to the desired amount. Getting it started would be the fun part. This is where the air mass increase and moving that air as Peter was talking about when making power seems to come into effect. I am starting to see a language I don't understand, and need a linquist: http://www.egr.msu.edu/~lira/supp/pg160expanded.pdf

What desired or max peak combustion pressure is, is something I am reading about. I have way more questions then answers right now...

gb

hth's