charging system help

[iron_giant]

i posted this in the 60 section and it should probably be here. Sorry about the double post.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/45789-charging-system-help-kinda-long.html

-david

[Island Moose]

I wouldn't trust the factory voltmeter to that level of accuracy...a bad alternator or regulator/rectifier would be a more dramatic drop I would imagine. Check your belts and all your connections.

[Jan-78FJ40]

I would guess that your voltage regulator or the brushes are bad. It is an easy fix, you can buy the regulator/brush combo from 4wheelauto in edmonton, and put it in yourself in half an hour.
when I got my BJ70 it had similar problems, and the regulator/brush fixed them for good.
Jan

[tlcruiserman]

I have no question that you have a regulator problem, here it why I say that. If you had under volts there are a few posiblities however if you are having over voltage the only way (factory wiring and what not) that can be possible is if your regulator is not doing its job. I did not see a mention of what year the 60 series is however if it is an external regulator I would guess it is 84 or earlier, on the 70 series they are all integrated on the alternator but I know on the 40 series they were external so I think it was a change in 85' I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Michael

[iron_giant]

thank you all for the help. The over voltage is what the alternator puts out not regulated. As soon as I hooked up the regulator then the voltage would fluctuate- sometimes charging well and sometime barely hitting 24 volts. I adjusted the regulator and trickle charged the batteries and got a maximum of 30.9 volts charge. I readjusted and should be right at 28-29 volts tops. with batteries fully charged the charging characteristic were great.

I took the two batteries (red tops bought 2 months ago) to Kragen to have them charged and they said they are both bad. One took a charge then at the end their tester said it was bad, the other came back "too hot to charge" whatever that means. my concern is that there is something in my charging system that is causing the batteries to go bad- I don't really know how a battery goes bad but I'd like to figure it out before I put new ones in. I also think that a battery- or two- that can't carry any kind of load would account for the dramatic drop in charging when i turn my heads light on

What charge do you guys get at idle?

thanks,
David

[Eric Winkworth]

I remember I friend telling me that there is a regulator you can buy so it isn't so hard on your dual batteries. I guess getting over 24v's isn't exactly good for them, but I don't know to much about it.

[brownbear]

In aircraft(24v) we need to be at least over 26 to get a good charge. in the colder weather I adjust a bit more to compensate. Average setting I run is 28.5 . Any higher and the battery gets cooked to fast.

I would imagine you would be 26 at idle and 28 at power. Could your batteries have been cooked from the higher voltage? 39-100

If you buy batteries make sure you get some with a warrantee. Buy one from one Canadian tire and go to another canadian tire to buy the other. Then if they get toasted return them individualy.
Sorry for that bad customer idea. But crappy tire takes everything back. Vendors on the board please ignore.

[Jan-78FJ40]

Originally Posted by iron_giant

thank you all for the help. The over voltage is what the alternator puts out not regulated. As soon as I hooked up the regulator then the voltage would fluctuate- sometimes charging well and sometime barely hitting 24 volts. I adjusted the regulator and trickle charged the batteries and got a maximum of 30.9 volts charge. I readjusted and should be right at 28-29 volts tops. with batteries fully charged the charging characteristic were great.

I took the two batteries (red tops bought 2 months ago) to Kragen to have them charged and they said they are both bad. One took a charge then at the end their tester said it was bad, the other came back "too hot to charge" whatever that means. my concern is that there is something in my charging system that is causing the batteries to go bad- I don't really know how a battery goes bad but I'd like to figure it out before I put new ones in. I also think that a battery- or two- that can't carry any kind of load would account for the dramatic drop in charging when i turn my heads light on

What charge do you guys get at idle?

thanks,
David

so is your problem solved with two new batteries? Otherwise, take tlc'man's advice and get a new regulator.
J

[tlcruiserman]

Originally Posted by iron_giant

thank you all for the help. The over voltage is what the alternator puts out not regulated. As soon as I hooked up the regulator then the voltage would fluctuate- sometimes charging well and sometime barely hitting 24 volts. I adjusted the regulator and trickle charged the batteries and got a maximum of 30.9 volts charge. I readjusted and should be right at 28-29 volts tops. with batteries fully charged the charging characteristic were great.

I took the two batteries (red tops bought 2 months ago) to Kragen to have them charged and they said they are both bad. One took a charge then at the end their tester said it was bad, the other came back "too hot to charge" whatever that means. my concern is that there is something in my charging system that is causing the batteries to go bad- I don't really know how a battery goes bad but I'd like to figure it out before I put new ones in. I also think that a battery- or two- that can't carry any kind of load would account for the dramatic drop in charging when i turn my heads light on

What charge do you guys get at idle?

thanks,
David

Are you tapping off one of the batteries to run any 12v stuff if so that could be part of your problem, in doing that you end up getting the batteries not equal so one will be undercharged and the other will be over charged, ultimately killing both batteries. Just a thought of what might have happened.

The other thought is if your regulator is flakey then you could be running over voltage to the batteries to charge them causing over charging, just another thought.

Cheers,

Michael

[dieseldog]

One thing I've noticed with Optima-type (gel cell) batteries is that if you ever once fully discharge it (them), they are toast. The standard redtops simply can't handle deep discharge like a lead/acid battery. I love Optimas; however, I have already ruined a brand new pair in my BJ-42 that I bought at the same time/same place (Interstate Battery dealer). The dealer stood by their product though. Don't get me wrong--Optimas are great batteries. It's just that if you've got to keep them charged and fresh. My 12volt (dual battery setup) KZJ-70 loves the Optimas but I won't put them back into any of my 24volt applications.

[iron_giant]

Went to sears and picked up two new redtops under warranty. The charge is now at 30.3 volts high end and is charging very well.

I do have the 12v memory wire from my stereo hooked up to the low side battery. I was under the impression that the draw was small enough that it shouldn't affect the batteries. However, considering the outcome of my last pair i may remove it.

Also, is 30.3 volts too high for the batteries? I know factory spec is 27-29.

thanks everyone

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by dieseldog

One thing I've noticed with Optima-type (gel cell) batteries is that if you ever once fully discharge it (them), they are toast. The standard redtops simply can't handle deep discharge like a lead/acid battery. I love Optimas; however, I have already ruined a brand new pair in my BJ-42 that I bought at the same time/same place (Interstate Battery dealer). The dealer stood by their product though. Don't get me wrong--Optimas are great batteries. It's just that if you've got to keep them charged and fresh. My 12volt (dual battery setup) KZJ-70 loves the Optimas but I won't put them back into any of my 24volt applications.

Agree. Last year I installed a blue top Optima in my FJ40. Foolishly thinking it would handle a deep cycle discharge, I left my Norco fridge on all night on "freeze" setting (I brought ice cream for Rubithon ). It died and was never the same again. Lately I checked it again and it was only reading 10V, so I took it back to Mudrak Custom Cruisers for a no hassle replacement under warranty.

So the warranty is good, but even the deep cycle battery can be killed.

Dave

[brownbear]

I think 30 is too high. I think better is 28. If you find it not too bad an adjustment I would look at changing. Just my two cents. Please if someone else thinks it is ok I will take no offense.

I only know from setting up aircraft Voltage regulators. I know if I went that high I would be overheating the battery.

27.5 is good too. The problem with too low is it takes for ever to recharge the batteries. Too high and you boil them hot. I don't know how that effects a gel. But a lead acid in the summer will need frequent top ups of water if run at high volts.

[Stone]

Originally Posted by iron_giant

I do have the 12v memory wire from my stereo hooked up to the low side battery. I was under the impression that the draw was small enough that it shouldn't affect the batteries. However, considering the outcome of my last pair i may remove it.

When you installed your stereo, did you happen to look at the wires in the harness and noticed if the Yellow "memory" wire was thicker gauge than the Red Ignition wire? I think in newer head units, the Yellow wire is called "Battery" and actually powers the amplifier in the unit and the Red ignition wire simply switches the unit on and off. You may be drawing more power off of your low side battery than you think.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I vaguely remember this from a couple of installs that I did. Either way, your best bet is to run a good 24-12v converter for all of your 12v needs.

[iron_giant]

Originally Posted by Stone

When you installed your stereo, did you happen to look at the wires in the harness and noticed if the Yellow "memory" wire was thicker gauge than the Red Ignition wire? I think in newer head units, the Yellow wire is called "Battery" and actually powers the amplifier in the unit and the Red ignition wire simply switches the unit on and off. You may be drawing more power off of your low side battery than you think.

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I vaguely remember this from a couple of installs that I did. Either way, your best bet is to run a good 24-12v converter for all of your 12v needs.

Stone, I think you may be right. The yellow lead is, if I remember correctly, larger than the red lead. this would explain a lot. I do run a converter but wanted a constant power source for the memory batts etc. I have the converter switched because I have an amp hooked up and don't want the constant draw.

I am going to bring the regulator down a bit. The website states that the red tops ar ok to be charged up to 15volts at unlimited amperage. Better safe than sorry.

thanks

[Stone]

Iron_giant:

Here's how I went about hooking up my stereo system. I'm also running an amplifier. I don't know which way will work out better for you, but it will give you another option, should you be looking for one.

1) Run the 12v output of your converter to a fusebox to make your 12v accessory connections.
2) Keep the Converter on constantly. This will give you constant 12v for radio memory, and also for a car alarm system if you want to install one in the future.
3) For a 12v ignition siwtched power source, buy yourself a 24v relay (I use Hella 87426). Find a 24v ignition switched power lead (often the cigarette lighter) and hook that up to Pin 85 of the relay. Pin 86 goes to chassis ground. Pin 30 receives fused +12v power from your 12v fuse box (supplied by your constantly on converter). Pin 87 goes to your 12v accessory that requires ignition switched 12v power (your radio Red "IGN" lead in this case).

The amplifier does not draw any current when it is off...and it is switched from your head unit, so when the head unit is off, so is the amplifier.

There is no power being tapped off of your low side battery that will eventually lead to battery bank failure.

More flexibility in running 12v accessories in the future. Anyway, I thought I'd throw that into the mix in case you missed the previous radio + 24v concern threads. FWIW, the 24v relays cost me about $6 CAD each at a local parts supplier.

[iron_giant]

thanks Stone. I will be redoing all of the wiring.

[iron_giant]

Just an update in case someone actually cares I was running my Gps on a road trip to mendocino county and about half way up the cigarette lighter went out. not a big deal, happens frequently, I just never took the time to check it. So i pull over and decide to fix it once and for all. Pull the dash out and start playing with the wires when I feel a sharp pain on the back of my hand. I investigate the cause and find the rear defroster switch is extremely hot. It is so hot that the three wires coming out of the switch are fused together. I unplug the switch cut the wires from eachother and tape them together... turn the car on and poof... alternator charging at 26.5 at idle, and with any throttle up to 28volts. I am now going to set up a 12 volt deepcycle system to run the radio fridge etc. Thanks for all of your help,

David

[Stone]

Wow...lucky it didn't cause a fire.