over heat

[Dave]

Bob Bancroft is having serious heat issues with a turbo 1HZ in a 60. He has emailed me but I am sure he would like other opinions.

This is what I got from him.

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Dave,

ANY IDEAS will be appreciated. I'm overheating 225f top of rad, 235 front of block, 225 rear of block, post turbo-525. At highway speed, under load, winter here - 50 something outside.

I have: new thermostat, newer radiator - just got it back an hour ago from being gone through - not the problem - stock 2f=maybe problem?, took water pump off - what a bitch, and everything looks fine, no signs of rags or anything not removed from install.

I'm using an electric fan, 16" good for up to 350 HP - per them.
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So if you have any idea post them here, I will forward this link to him.

[fjbj40]

Does he have cooling fan shroud in place ? Is rad baffled properly , is it sealed around all sides on the forward side ? Is the cooling fan sucking through the rad or blowing through ? Have seen them hooked up backwards before and draws warm air off engine or stops all air flow !
hth , Daryl

[wesintl]

At what altitude and how long a grade? I can get my 3B hotter than that...

[tlcruiserman]

Ok, most of these I am sure you have check but just starting from ground zero.

1. is thermostat working and installed correctly (not upside down)

2. are you running a mix, for rad fluid, with it being that cold I have seen the rad freeze preventing flow of rad fluid.

I am guessing that you are not getting hot water out of the block for some reason and that is why is overheating, at -50 I would say the temp is the only reason it is not worse, there is a blockage somewhere outside the block or possible right at the thermostat.

Good Luck,

Michael

[Dave]

Just a little more information. The temps are in degrees F. The ambient is "about" 50F not -50 as it looks, I think that is a tilde in the first post.


From Bob.

Thanks Dave. for some reason I8mud won't let me in to reply - maybe because I haven't signed in for so long?


Still overheating. Will check with laser thermometer tomorrow when I can see things.


Fan fully shrouded, 2" behind radiator, sucking air through. Thermostat - gutted, free flowing. Radiator is cooling and working. Flow through engine works, but don't know how much - but does not appear to be the issue - although for some reason it has to be. Head Gasket - no obvious signs. 3600 feet elevation, going up mild hill - have lots of throttle left but scared to go that fast - I'm overheating with ambient air temps at 50 degrees f, unloaded, 70 mph, mild hill 5th or 4th gear. Within 1 mile temp starts climbing, by mile 2 it's getting close to red zone or in red. Turn around going down - Temp gauge drops to 1/3 within two minutes. So the system is trying to work, but not pulling it off. EGT's max 1300, laser read on turbo 550 when the side of block is at 235 on front/opposite side.


Bob Bancroft

[Dave]

It sounds to me like a flow problem. Anyone ever see a collapsed lower hose on a 1HZ?

[Radd Cruisers]

Here are the issues Kiwi wonder was having.

Two causes, electric fan without shroud is the first.

Second and biggest issue was air flow blockage, winch was his problem is Bob running a intercooler, winch that is seated high or any other obstruction?

I know if Wayne were here he would say go factory fan and custom made shroud.

I remember him saying Bobs engine may have been mounted slightly lower like Kiwis which would not allow the use of the factory fan?

In any case we will be making the factory fan work with Toms as did another 1HZ installer on Mud did.

Bob also has a turbo, what are his EGTs, what kind of boost is he running?


Rob

[Rzeppa]

With my normally aspirated 1HZ I did get pretty hot going up long hills at altitude. The pump was never adjusted for Colorado properly so it was always overfueled. I would suggest to Bob that it isn't a cooling problem so much as too much fuel (and air) getting shoved into the engine. Back off on the fuel in the pump and see what happens. From all the years I spent on the diesel list this was one of the things I learned. Your EGTs seem to support over-fueling as the culprit. You may lose a few ponies but it sure beats a cracked 1HZ head.

See you in Moab!

[lowenbrau]

Some engines will not pump coolant without a t-stat. I learned this the hard way. It just short circuits in the pump. Make sure you have a new, correct t-stat.

[crushers]

Originally Posted by Dave

Just a little more information. The temps are in degrees F. The ambient is "about" 50F not -50 as it looks, I think that is a tilde in the first post.


From Bob.

Thanks Dave. for some reason I8mud won't let me in to reply - maybe because I haven't signed in for so long?


Still overheating. Will check with laser thermometer tomorrow when I can see things.


Fan fully shrouded, 2" behind radiator, sucking air through. Thermostat - gutted, free flowing. Radiator is cooling and working. Flow through engine works, but don't know how much - but does not appear to be the issue - although for some reason it has to be. Head Gasket - no obvious signs. 3600 feet elevation, going up mild hill - have lots of throttle left but scared to go that fast - I'm overheating with ambient air temps at 50 degrees f, unloaded, 70 mph, mild hill 5th or 4th gear. Within 1 mile temp starts climbing, by mile 2 it's getting close to red zone or in red. Turn around going down - Temp gauge drops to 1/3 within two minutes. So the system is trying to work, but not pulling it off. EGT's max 1300, laser read on turbo 550 when the side of block is at 235 on front/opposite side.


Bob Bancroft

Bob,
did you mount the fan flush with the shroud? or is the fan near the rad and the shroud behind the fan?
if so then this could be some of your problem.
you NEED the t/stat, it is a must, it slows down the flow of coolant so there is enough time for the rad to cool the coolant as it goes through.
is the rad new or record? or is it just a different rad? if so then there could be blockage in the cores, pull the rad and flush with murotic acid and reinstall.
dumb question-check for blockage at the front of the rad, leaves, dirt, clay,etc, it doesn't take much to cause problems.
i would raise the front of the engine to proper height and run a factory solid fan and a custom shroud.
sorry this is all i can come up with at this time.
cheers

[crushers]

Originally Posted by Rzeppa

With my normally aspirated 1HZ I did get pretty hot going up long hills at altitude. The pump was never adjusted for Colorado properly so it was always overfueled. I would suggest to Bob that it isn't a cooling problem so much as too much fuel (and air) getting shoved into the engine. Back off on the fuel in the pump and see what happens. From all the years I spent on the diesel list this was one of the things I learned. Your EGTs seem to support over-fueling as the culprit. You may lose a few ponies but it sure beats a cracked 1HZ head.

See you in Moab!

Welcome Jeff,
that old 1HZ is a totally different beast now with the turbo and the propane injection. it bloody well rocks. 160 k/h top end. 0-100k in 12 seconds and at 110 k/h it gets 23.7 mpg. 1000F at 75 mph on 6% grades in 4th.
you have to come up and take it for a spin.
i like it so much, it is the only engine i recommend anymore, clean, sweet, powerful and fuel efficient. i have another sitting here waiting for space so i can drop it into old smokey (ex BJ74).
cheers and welcome again.

[roscoFJ73]

I say the thermostat as well. Without it I dont think you will get proper circulation.

As Wayne said it also needs some back pressure to cool properly

[BlueHZT60]

Wayne - fan is flush housing - now sucking from entire surface area.

THE PROBLEM - AS IDENTITIED CURRENTLY = HEAD GASKET. So in a couple weeks, when I'm back from Moab, we'll see if a new head gasket solves the issues.

Thank you to all of you. Bob Bancroft

[crushers]

how did you identify that as the problem?
coolant pressure test?
are you loosing coolant?
is the system being pressurized?
just curious.
cheers

[Radd Cruisers]

Hey Bob, I saw your posts on the DTLC list. Sounds like your have confirmed the head gasket.

Now lets get one from Ens and maybe my wife will let me drive down and help you change it out??

My guess is it may of lost coolant at some point and popped, are you seeing any steam from the tailpipe?

One maybe two days and we could have you ready for Moab.

Rob

[crushers]

i am going to debate the idea that it is a head gasket, if the system is not being pressurized by compression and if there is no coolant loss and if there is no coolant in the oil then i can not see how it can be a head gasket... Rob, what makes you think it is? did i miss something?(it wouldn't be the first time)
i would suspect air bubble in the coolant i had the same swhen i put a block heater in a LJ71. after trying almost everything i listened to Bruce and burped the system over and over and over finally the air was gone and no more over heating on the highway...
might be wrong here but worth a cheap try.
cheers

[Radd Cruisers]

I think Bob responded about having found pices of head gasket material in the coolant?

Also I am a little suspect, with such a high compression engine.

In my dealings with a gasser head gasket, it went real fast and the engine was billowing steam out the exhaust. No.6 had pushed inward to the piston which I had never seen before?

I also am suspect to the overheating and would be looking closer at the cooling system.

Rob

[crushers]

he mentioned hydrocarbons, i checked the posts and i never came across head gasket material being found...i would suspect that if the head gasket was that far gone then the over heating would be much more dramatic as well as more visable signs (such as the one you mentioned where steam was pooring out the exhaust...
cheers

[beanz2]

Nobody has suggested a bad water pump yet? The 1HZ's water pump is driven off the crankshaft pulley by two drivebelts. Check if these belts are slipping? Maybe the tension on the alternator is not correct?

What about an air pocket in the head? If the cylinder head is mounted higher than the radiator filler, you'd have a heck of a time of getting the air out.

Dave

[tlcruiserman]

Originally Posted by beanz2

Nobody has suggested a bad water pump yet? The 1HZ's water pump is driven off the crankshaft pulley by two drivebelts. Check if these belts are slipping? Maybe the tension on the alternator is not correct?

What about an air pocket in the head? If the cylinder head is mounted higher than the radiator filler, you'd have a heck of a time of getting the air out.

Dave

He mentioned a NEW water pump and check it out as well.

[beanz2]

Originally Posted by Dave

Bob Bancroft is having serious heat issues with a turbo 1HZ in a 60. He has emailed me but I am sure he would like other opinions.

This is what I got from him.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave,

ANY IDEAS will be appreciated. I'm overheating 225f top of rad, 235 front of block, 225 rear of block, post turbo-525. At highway speed, under load, winter here - 50 something outside.

I have: new thermostat, newer radiator - just got it back an hour ago from being gone through - not the problem - stock 2f=maybe problem?, took water pump off - what a bitch, and everything looks fine, no signs of rags or anything not removed from install.

I'm using an electric fan, 16" good for up to 350 HP - per them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still don't see mention of a new water pump?

Dave

[BlueHZT60]

This morning -

Installed thermastat - gutted, just plate to slow flow slightly. Idled for an hour and never got over one needle above cold. 15 degree drop from top of rad. to bottom.

Road test - uphill, EGT - 1000-1100, Oil 180/190, 50 mph, outside temp - mild, hill - mild, no smoke - I can go 7 miles & hit red. Heavy throttle -same thing only in one mile. Hit red on gauge. Hop out use laser temp. front of head 245, rear 235, to of rad 225, bottom hose 215, turbo 525.

Next - Hydrocarbon analyzer stuck down into radiator. read hydrocarbons, and reading goes up with throttle. Our indication that we may be dealing with a head gasket - in addition to the fact the we have been through everything else 2 or 3 times. Radiator - new for all purposes, Thermastat - new and removed both, Water pump - looks essentially new, intercooler - none.

Current 11th our attempt - burb a bubble out of the block and give it a run in the morning to see if blue cruiser goes to Moab.

No head gasket pieces in cooling system. Only black smoke on full throttle, no obvious loss of coolant.

Still waiting for that DUH!! moment, but haven't stumbled into/onto it yet.

If we were marginal on temps I'd easily suspect air flow, heat shields, venting, and other minor fixes, but right now the temp issues is way out of line, so little fixed won't help.

I am confident we will eventually figure it out - just midly frustrating to not be driving at Moab - hey, but you know what - I'm probably saving my body with my first 4+ trail - saving it for AK06 -I'll donate the body in the north rather than the south.

Bob Bancroft - thanks for the help, issue still hot so any ideas still appreciated. I figure I'll order a 1HD head kit from AU and plow forward on getting bullet proof.

[HZJ60 Guy]

HEY, Ive never heard of that. Is it possible to TURN an HZ INTO an HD by simply changing out the head????


Let's talk about this.




TB

[BlueHZT60]

Originally Posted by HZJ60 Guy

HEY, Ive never heard of that. Is it possible to TURN an HZ INTO an HD by simply changing out the head????


Let's talk about this.




TB

No idea, but interesting. Bob B

[Radd Cruisers]

Not quite that easy.....


Fuel system would be replaced with the direct injections system and the HZ is of course much higher compression than the HD-T.

[HZJ60 Guy]

Originally Posted by Radd Cruisers

Not quite that easy.....


Fuel system would be replaced with the direct injections system and the HZ is of course much higher compression than the HD-T.

Oops. Please forgive my dumb-ass-ness.



Im sure Ill be more than happy with my HZ.


TB

[Radd Cruisers]

Originally Posted by HZJ60 Guy

Oops. Please forgive my dumb-ass-ness.



Im sure Ill be more than happy with my HZ.


TB

No need as I myself am a dumb-ass also and by golly I like myself...

Prolly quite a few parts to make this work that I did not mention.

[theSherpa]

It would certainly also require pistons and probably rods, and I'd want to check the deck height of both HZ and HD blocks to make sure it's the same. Probably a laundry list of little stuff like water pump, maybe timing chain/gears/tensioner, etc. I'd sell a 1HZ to buy a 1HD-T, personally.

Steve

Originally Posted by HZJ60 Guy

HEY, Ive never heard of that. Is it possible to TURN an HZ INTO an HD by simply changing out the head????


Let's talk about this.




TB