[dohcdelsol93]

looking for pointers before i get started with buying parts/tuning


i see alot of people here that are adding a turbo onto a non turbo 2h or 3b and they are getting EGT gauges

I've run turbo hondas for years and the egt gauges were a waste unless you just liked to see something spike before your engine blew (thank god that never happened to me)


unless your using an egt gauge to tune (helpful but not needed) it's useless unless you have a probe and different gauge for each port on the exh manifold. Thus being expensive to be accurate and since most of what we work with on our cruisers is not computer controlled you can't electronicly controll the injectors for more/less duty on each cycle to make each cyl run equal (as equal as possible).

Why do more diesel people not use a wide ban o2 sensor, which i have not heard mentioned on this board?

You weld an o2 bung to your exhaust, you mount it about 12 inches to 18 inches beyond your downpipe before the muffler/cat

It gives you real time accurate a/f ratios. For gas you want 12:1 at WOT under boost and a little leaner at lower psi intervals. to get you better fuel mileage and 14:1 at vaccume levels/below 0 psi

It would allow you to get the optimum fuel without going overboard like you could easily do by running an EGT guage

for those of you that dont know what a wide ban o2 sensor is it's not the narrow band o2 sensor you can get at autozone or pepboys (it's junk)

So when i get my non factory turbo diesel in my truck and set up...what do you guys usually do to tune?

What a/f ratios do i need for a diesel under boost and n/a

I want to run a little on the rich side since it's much safer but i don't want to run so rich that i sacrifice too many MPG


my plans are a turbo 3b

I don't want a speed deamon but if i press the gas i want it to go.

Plan on running waste VO

Will have a dual stage boost controller (cheap used on ricer sites like honda-tech.com) for a regular driving and towing/hwy merging

Will do like another member here and use a turbo timer (very cheap used or new) to run the rest of the WVO out of the lines after i stop the car and fill them with diesel. These things have adjustable cool down times and newere ones are very user friendly. Many of them also have volt. meter gauges built in.

Want to get as much info as possible, i went through 3 engine set ups on my last project car before i got what i wanted and want to avoid that costly mistake with this one.

[Dougal]

Mainly because diesels are tuned in a completely different way to petrols. If you run your diesel rich you'll kill it. Quickly.

Petrols run stoich for most of their operation and only richen up to provide max power and suppress detonation.
Diesels always run lean, at idle maybe 100:1, under peak loads you'll start to see smoke around 18:1 and they keep getting hotter the richer they get.
They always run on the lean side of stoich. I don't think any wide band o2 sensor will have a wide enough range to be useful. The sensor sooting up could also be a problem.

It is also possible in a boosted diesel to pass dangerous EGT levels without going past normally dangerous A/F ratios. Because we run more boost we can have more heat coming into the cyilnders which directly causes more heat on the way out.

Hence EGT is the #1 tuning aid. Yes you're correct that having one on each cylinder is the ultimate, but few people run their tunes hot enough to burn just one cyilnder. They're usually melting several (i.e things going wrong fast or just plain ignorance) or melt none through good management.

It's probably easier to tune diesels if you don't have to unlearn all your petrol tuning habits.

[eleblanc]

It is a must IMHO, and even before you install the turbo, so you can compare before and after numbers.

[crushers]

i love it when guys running gassers come here and tell us what is a waste on diesels.

you are entering an new world of reason, leave the information you learned about gassers at the door and come on in.

Pyro, must have.
boost, should have
oil pressure, must have
coolant gauge, must have.

factory gauges are s sugestion, that is ALL they are good for.
do a search and then come back with questions.

cheers and welcome

[dohcdelsol93]

thanks for clearing that up for me

after years of tunning high perfomance 2 strokes by ear and tuning on OBDI systems I know i have a ton to learn to learn about diesels.

I have very little experience with a diesel other than rebuilding a kuboda 4 cyl diesel way back in highschool. However i did no diagnostic work on that machine, just read the spec book...installed new bearings and rings and put her back together with new gaskets...made sure i saw over 450(can't rember exact # maybe 550 has been over 10 years ago) psi on each cyl cold and sent her on her way.

As with any vehicle i own i dont trust idiot lights/gauges.

I can get a cheap egt guage off of a local ricer that bought one to look cool in his gauge pod and then realized it was useless on his stock d16 engine with intake and exhaust.

Where do you guys usually mount the probe? Is there one cyl on a 3B that tends to run hotter than the others?

I'm assuming you mount it pre turbo for higher readings and if you don't put it in one of the runners in at the exh port where do you place it in the manifold?

And the boost pressure gauge, i am guessing that since it dosn't vaccume/see pressure like a gasser it would have to go directly to the charge pipe going from the turbo to the intake.

a diesel is very much a different beast. I didn't realize that the richer you run a diesel the hotter she gets, very much the opposite from what i work with every day. No wonder the diesel chevy 350's were such a piece of crap.

and i will be running an intercooler on the set up. I have a few oem that i have access to that i will see if they fit.

Has anyone tried an OEM side mount DSM intercooler? If you get the end tanks redone the flow is great and you only see about a 1-2 psi drop between pre IC and post IC. It mounted beside the radiator in the Eclipse so from first glance it looks like it would be a good fit.

And as for the waste gate. Do you guys let the waste gate vent into the atmosphere in most cases or run it back into the exhaust?

We have no emissions in SC so for years i've just been making them 12-18 inches long and routing them out of the engine bay depending on the set up

and i have not read much about blow off valves on diesels. I've never set one up that circulated back into the system (it's clean air anyway but some states are werid about any gasses expelled). I'm guessing that it would still be needed so when you shift gears your not shocking the system when you let off the gas pedal and your compressed air has no where to go.

again thanks for all the info. Trying to unlearn as i go

I have coolant gauges and oil temp gauges laying around the shop left over from previous projects. I just haven't taken the time to mount them on the 2f since shes going to dissapear soon anyway.

Do you recomend an oil tem gauge, on gas engines most of the time the oil is about the same temp as the water temp anyway so there is little use for it.

and for the coolant temp probe. i've been just having my father fab up a little joint T out of brass to put inline the lower coolant hose and i inserted a bung in that T. Is that going to give me good enough readings on this set up?


I do not plan on running a water cooled turbo since these diesels run a low psi of maybe 15 max i see little need for it. I've never used them in the past and have even seen many that are made for oil and water run with just oil for years reliably.

I will be running a WVO tank that will have a heater core in it so i will be routing coolant from the engine back to the tank. Do you guys usually tap into one of the heater core lines and then run it back into the opposite heater core lines?

Not sure of where i want the tank yet. The body will come off the frame before the swap so i can coat my frame and replace all the bushings so i figure it will be a great time to run fuel lines for the engine as well as complete the swap and do exhuast modifications. I would like to mount it where the spare tire hangs and put the spare tire on a roof rack. It does not get really cold in SC and even then she stays in a garage.

I have access to about 20 some odd fieros so i'm sure atleast one or two have a good fuel tank in them. They may be a little long for the space i have but i may be able to take the bigger ends of two and weld it together to make one bigger/shorter tank that will fit nicely under there. It needs to come apart anyway to install a baffel and the heat exchanger.

I can also take the time to insulate it really well.


thanks again for all the info, I've only been a cruiser owner for about 2 months now and i love the vehicle.

and i wasn't trying to flame anyone about EGT gauges, just wanted it explained to me as to why i have not heard anything about a wide ban, i don't assume i know more than anyone else...i like to ask questions before a drop a shit load of money into a project. I don't want to buy a bunch of stuff and blow it up and sell it for pennies on the dollar back to all you guys lol

[cruiser_guy]

As others have alluded to, a diesel doesn't run on a fixed A/F ratio. It is continuously variable, one of the reasons for a diesels economy. That makes an O2 sensor totally useless!!

[crushers]

remember the Pyro is a "suggestion" or a guideline to drive by. nothing more. you do not want to run close to the red continuiously. when it gets to 1200F then it is time to change gear or driving style.

[dohcdelsol93]

right...I don't need an wide ban o2 and as stated by another poster gauges are great to have so

in my previous builds i had wide bans just so i could be sure there were no lean conditions (especially with all teh crap gas that we have gotten after katrina and still seem to be getting) so a pyro in the cruiser will be used the the same way....to let me know if something is about to go

I don't do any off roading and the towing i will be doing is fairly light (boat/small camper/jet skis)

I want to go turbo/diesel for the fuel economy and for the near free fuel i can get/use that is enviromentally friendly

I've been riding a motorcycle to do my part of going green but don't so much enjoy the bike in stop/go city traffic or in temps below 60. Having a green SUV would be ideal for me.

sorry for the super long post of questions, long posts are never forum favorites but i had a few to add

in most TLC WVO set ups they use the IP to pull the warm WVO...would it be a good idea to use a low psi pull pump to get the WVO out of the tank? I would imagine it would take alot of pressure to pull the WVO through various filters and heated fitlers let alone being kind of a dense liquid to begin with.

secondly...what fuel system mods need to be added to a stock 3B to safely boost?

Will be running a dual stage boost controller as stated before...a 7 psi spring in the WG and adjust it to 14-15 when in tow. (flip switch in the rig to swap between the two on the fly)

[crushers]

why would you run a dual stage boost controller? your load will determine the boost, not the waste gate. if you set the max at 14 psi then you will be running usually 6-9 on the highway and when you hit a hill it will go up. if you are running a full boost then it is your foot that needs adjusting.

a 3B receives boost quite well with no mods other than increasing the fuel.

[Dougal]

As already mentioned. A dual stage boost controller is a waste of time. Boost on a diesel is set by fuelling, which is set by your right foot.
Any device to reduce boost has the potential to kill your engine by not providing enough boost to keep the EGT's down.

Blow-off valves, waste of time, not needed.
Wastegates, almost always in the turbo housing and need to be kept routed into the exhaust. Why you'd vent any exhaust on any vehicle short is beyond me.

The 3B fuel pumps appear to have about 7mm plungers, this amount of fuel limits the engine to about 400Nm. The rev limitations mean 90kw is probably the limit.
You can burn that amount of fuel cleanly with 20psi and no intercooler or about 12psi with a good intercooler. It's never going to be a power house but it'll be fun to drive.

[rchalmers3]

Mmmmmm, good popcorn. Pass the salt.

Rick

[dohcdelsol93]

thanks for the info

not looking for a powerhouse...if i was a SBC would be going in her

definately helped to clear up some questions...seems that since i need no fuel system mods to turbo this and far less parts than you'd need on a gasser this will be a reallly simple turbo kit

[roscoFJ73]

Originally Posted by dohcdelsol93

seems that since i need no fuel system mods to turbo this and far less parts than you'd need on a gasser this will be a reallly simple turbo kit

The fuel is usually turned up a little with the addition of a turbo,maybe an eighth of a turn on the fuel screw.
This is often done using the EGT gauge to find the sweet spot.

Once a diesel is set up correctly you shouldnt need to do anything except oil and filter changes for years.

I would strongly recommend having the injectors checked or even have new nozzles fitted by someone experienced with denso diesel injection.The B diesel injectors are one of the cheapest to rebuild