[Tofudebeest]

OK, it takes a bunch of hammer whacks to get my 2H starter to enage...

Stupid Q: will the gear-reduction starter motor from a 3FE work as a substitute?

Smarter Q: If not, can someone please provide a link to where I would buy a 2H starter rebuild kit (I presume I need a new plunger and contacts).

[watrob]

Ebay Australia has them all the time. Otherwise take it to a auto electrician they would have parts, bushes etc. Toyota Forklift trucks had 2H motors also.

Hope that helps.

PS> I pulled one apart, cleaned it, greased it, put it back together and its still working.

[Tofudebeest]

Yeah, I think sitting with no bonnet for a couple of months allowed some rust in the starter...
I'm going to open it and clean the plunger and contacts. If thgat doesn't work, I'll install the new plunger and contacts I just ordered from Radd, in Vancouver, which they got from a Wilson Elec. Supply, who regularly carry Nippondenso parts...

Thanks.

[jmylie]

I had a similar problem last year.

You can order the contacts from Toyota or just braze some new material on the old one.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-...6-starter.html

http://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-...-solenoid.html

[Tapage]

few links ..

eBay Motors: starter repair kit 85-82 Toyota Landcruiser 4.0L, 4.2L (item 320255979319 end time Sep-21-08 19:25:00 PDT)

eBay Motors: "Old Stock" Starter - Toyota LandCruiser (item 4564316192 end time Oct-05-08 14:55:24 PDT)

eBay Motors: Starter #16828 Toyota Land Cruiser 4.0L 1988 - 1992 (item 220282229028 end time Oct-16-08 06:51:40 PDT)

eBay Motors: STARTER Toyota Land Cruiser 83 84 85 86 87 88 - 92 (item 160277619348 end time Sep-28-08 12:27:06 PDT)

as a last resource .. drop me a mail tapage at 4x4panama.com and I can found the parts here for you ..

[Tofudebeest]

OK, update:

I replaced the contacts and plunger about 6 months ago, and had great starter operation. Then it started acting up, and I got used to having to beat the crap out of it with to get it to engage. After I got sick of that action, I decided to bite the bullet, pulled it, opened it up, visually inspected it, cleaned it (it wasn't too dirty), hit the contacts and business end of the plunger with a dremmel wire wheel to freshen up the surfaces, patched it back together, reinstalled it and ran it with no problems for close to a month. Yay (not so fast)!

Now it is acting up again.

Symptom: click, click, click...will not engage when I turn the key. If I sit there and keep trying, sometimes it eventually does engage and start the truck up. Sometimes it takes 5 key turns, sometimes 50. When it doesn't, I hop out and have somebody else turn the key quickly and repeatedly (when somebody is available to help, including my 5-year old daughter), while I whack at the starter with my lug nut wrench. This does the job, but even that sometimes takes a minute or so. When nobody is around, I go back and forth, whacking, then trying, whacking, then trying, until it works. SHEER JOY when the weather is 90+ and I am in the parking lot of a busy store, looking like a damn idiot, dripping sweat, and running late.

The starter has NEVER ONCE been stuck on (no whirring, no noises). When it engages and fires up the truck, as soon as I release the key, it stops, as it should.

I did buy replacement brushes from Neil (RooDogs4WDSpares), but did not install them because it looks like a 5 banana job with my total ignorance on this. That and the brushes look perfectly fine and don't look like they need replacing. My grounds are good, and my alternator's voltage output seems fine. I have no known electrical system issues, my battery stays nicely charged, my glow system works perfectly...

So what's going on?

One random thought: The rubber drain nipple coming out of the starter...it is gone. This can't be it...
The felt washer, it's gone too. Also, the first time I took the starter apart, a small, flat square metal tab (maybe 5mm x 5mm, 1 mm thick) fell out, and I can't seem to find where it goes. The fact that the starter works a bunch (if not most) of the time, and worked flawlessly for over a month or so indicates that these things are largely irrelevant...I suppose...

[amaurer]

Originally Posted by Tofudebeest

OK, update:

I replaced the contacts and plunger about 6 months ago, and had great starter operation. Then it started acting up, and I got used to having to beat the crap out of it with to get it to engage. After I got sick of that action, I decided to bite the bullet, pulled it, opened it up, visually inspected it, cleaned it (it wasn't too dirty), hit the contacts and business end of the plunger with a dremmel wire wheel to freshen up the surfaces, patched it back together, reinstalled it and ran it with no problems for close to a month. Yay (not so fast)!

Now it is acting up again.

Symptom: click, click, click...will not engage when I turn the key. If I sit there and keep trying, sometimes it eventually does engage and start the truck up. Sometimes it takes 5 key turns, sometimes 50. When it doesn't, I hop out and have somebody else turn the key quickly and repeatedly (when somebody is available to help, including my 5-year old daughter), while I whack at the starter with my lug nut wrench. This does the job, but even that sometimes takes a minute or so. When nobody is around, I go back and forth, whacking, then trying, whacking, then trying, until it works. SHEER JOY when the weather is 90+ and I am in the parking lot of a busy store, looking like a damn idiot, dripping sweat, and running late.

The starter has NEVER ONCE been stuck on (no whirring, no noises). When it engages and fires up the truck, as soon as I release the key, it stops, as it should.

I did buy replacement brushes from Neil (RooDogs4WDSpares), but did not install them because it looks like a 5 banana job with my total ignorance on this. That and the brushes look perfectly fine and don't look like they need replacing. My grounds are good, and my alternator's voltage output seems fine. I have no known electrical system issues, my battery stays nicely charged, my glow system works perfectly...

So what's going on?

One random thought: The rubber drain nipple coming out of the starter...it is gone. This can't be it...
The felt washer, it's gone too. Also, the first time I took the starter apart, a small, flat square metal tab (maybe 5mm x 5mm, 1 mm thick) fell out, and I can't seem to find where it goes. The fact that the starter works a bunch (if not most) of the time, and worked flawlessly for over a month or so indicates that these things are largely irrelevant...I suppose...

My starter has done the EXACT same thing at least three times in the last few months. Sometimes just holding the key in Start for a few seconds is all it needs, but once I had to get out and beat on it a bit.

As you say, I can't quite imagine how the contacts are to blame for this given that its not "sticking on".

[lostmarbles]

Could be something wrong with the "pull coil" that leaves just the "hold-coil" working.



This would certainly lead to a "weak pull-in".



Just and idea.......

[Tofudebeest]

Holy crap, you just made me have an aneurysm. WTF am I supposed to do with this info (though I appreciate the attempt at help)?

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by Tofudebeest

Holy crap, you just made me have an aneurysm. WTF am I supposed to do with this info (though I appreciate the attempt at help)?

Well. .......... If you took things apart and had surplus watzits falling on the floor - maybe they had something to do with "the connection of the pull-in coil". But I wouldn't have a clue whether they really do or not (from the other side of the world here).

.......................Carry on as you were.

[Tofudebeest]

I know what I am doing tomorrow night...

[In2cruisers]

12 or 24v?

[Tofudebeest]

12v, Aussie.

[Tofudebeest]

Update. I had such great success with my a/c I was feeling confident, and pulled (yet again) my starter. I can get the 15 mm nut (top) and bolt (bottom) and the 15 mm power cable nut and the connector off in record time now...

Ok, now for some "this thread sucks without pictures" remedy:

The previously mentioned little square metal do-hickey that fell out of my starter when I replaced the plunger and contacts, still out, still of unknown function and proper location, still undepicted in any exploded diagram of any starter I have ever seen or heard of:

In case you are an Über-nerd, here's a closer up picture of the seemingly meaningless but surely essential part which currently serves as the source of my entire life's angst (please do not steal my palm print and use it in your next robbery/murder/act of mayhem):

"Dirty", slightly oxidized plunger contact surface:

After I hit it (like yo mama) with a dremmel wire brush:

Same of the contacts, before:

And after:

Brushes, well-worn (one is much more worn than the rest..insert "yo mama's so loose" joke"), but still making excellent contact:

The replacement brushes, which I am too cowardly to attempt to solder in. when I finally give up with the starter, I'll hand them over to the real man who will rebuild this starter once and for all (well, at least another 200,000 miles).

The "binness" end of the starter, whose teeth are a little whacked, (like yo mama's), but not so bad that they don't function well.

[Tofudebeest]

Oh I neglected to mention, since I took these pictures and reinstalled the starter, I got excellent first-attempt starts, but now I hear the much-discussed "whirrrrrr" when I let the key go for about 2-3 seconds.

Am I going to die? I mean soon. Presumably something is not disengaging as quickly as it is supposed to.

Oh, after I reinstalled this starter, I did some reading and maybe I should not have wiped out most of the goop in there, which was, as I know now, dielectric grease. There are still traces of it in there, hopefully enough to prevent the starter from liquefying and leaving a molten mess on my lawn.

[Tofudebeest]

Called my local auto electrical repair shop (who has a stellar reputation)...

$90 to rebuild my starter and fully evaluate my vehicle's electrical system (glow, alternator, battery, etc.).

[Ducks]

Great news!

[AGreekBoy]

that is pretty cheap

[lostmarbles]

I've been away from the computer/Internet for 8 days and arrived back home last night.

As soon as I saw your "square metal do-hickey" I recognised it as being familiar.

It is "the protrusion" used to correctly locate/mate the stator of the drive-motor with the alloy casting and it is ESSENTIAL.

That motor has high power-output. (Mine is 2.5kW!) And the same toque that is applied to the rotor is also applied to the stator - but in the reverse direction.

So that "do-hickey" is also there to stop the stator from turning as a result of this torque.



PS. This proves that photos aren't just good for enjoyment. They often trigger useful responses. (And I hope you'll see this reply as one of those.)

See Fig 8-50 here (Sorry it isn't clearer but it should suffice.):

[Tofudebeest]

That is AWESOME! OK, now where'd that diagram come from, it isn't in my FSM. What you posted is amazing info, but the diagram is as clear as the name of this forum.

[Radd Cruisers]

A few things come to mind:

The red-ish 'paper' insulator that sits near hole for the plunger can get off center and cause the plunger to bind.

There is a ball that lives in the little hole where the spring and shaft that protrude from the plunger go into.

The square metal tab looks like the head of a bolt... many of the electrical contact bolts in the starter have square head. Is one of the contacts missing this?

If the two replaceable contacts are worn unevenly, or installed so that they are not flat to the plunger contact face, you will get poor contact and poor starts.


~John

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by Tofudebeest

That is AWESOME! OK, now where'd that diagram come from, it isn't in my FSM. What you posted is amazing info, but the diagram is as clear as the name of this forum.

Well that was from the 1977 B & 2B ENGINE MANUAL.

How about this from the 1988 B, 3B, 11B, 14B manual then:





Some people take a lot of pleasing!

[Tofudebeest]

Holy shit. Toyota (Nippondenso, I am sure) really made nut crunching design there, huh?

I am gonna pull this starter one last time, with no beers in my belly/brain, and see if I can't figure out this little STUPID tab before I abandon the effort and hand it off to a professional.

Many thanks. This is classic MUD-level tech support. In fact this info is so esoteric and unprecedented in this forum (at least from all the searching I have done), that this should get tagged somehow for all 2H (and possibly other) starter rebuild problems.

[Tofudebeest]

Where the tab goes, vacant:

Where the tab goes, with tab present:

The tab's other half grabs this slot and does who the hell knows what:

One spectator:

Two others:

[Tofudebeest]

OK, I keep buying myself some time by routinely pulling this thing and cleaning the contacts and plunger. But I was stuck at Home Depot (in 95F heat) unable to get this to start. hammer whacks galore did not help. I put it in gear, released the p brake and rocked it back and forth to turn the flywheel, oh so slightly. That did the trick. The starter is clearly getting jammed up if the flywheel stops in anything but the perfect spot.

WTF?

[lostmarbles]

Originally Posted by Tofudebeest

OK, I keep buying myself some time by routinely pulling this thing and cleaning the contacts and plunger. But I was stuck at Home Depot (in 95F heat) unable to get this to start. hammer whacks galore did not help. I put it in gear, released the p brake and rocked it back and forth to turn the flywheel, oh so slightly. That did the trick. The starter is clearly getting jammed up if the flywheel stops in anything but the perfect spot.

WTF?

Maybe use a die grinder (dremel or similar) to grind off the burrs on the teeth on your starter cog (and maybe tidy up the teeth on your "flywheel ring-gear" too)?

The teeth certainly look a bit "munted" here:





(Might be a cheap solution but I don't know how long it would last for.)

[Tofudebeest]

Did that last night, actually. Didn't help at all. I would have already taken this starter to the rebuilder, but something tells me that won't solve the problem. That and I am stubborn and want to figure it out myself.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Radd Cruisers

The square metal tab looks like the head of a bolt... ~John

....?

[Tofudebeest]

John (or anybody else not guessing),
I'd like some solid advice on this, I do not want to waste $90 for nothing.
Could the missing felt washer be causing all this nonsense? Felt? Really? I guess hte logic is as follows: Mr. Toyoda put it in there for a function, otherwise it wouldn't be there...

My very last experiment will be to pull this bitch AGAIN, put in a felt washer, and see if that solves the problem. If not, rebuild. New (not a rebuilt unit) = $350 (shipping not included) from Neil in Oz.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Tofudebeest

New (not a rebuilt unit) = $350 (shipping not included) from Neil in Oz.

Sorry - no useful info here. Is that US or AUD $ ?? I've never checked the price here but that's scary. Plus shipping...#$%@