What size turbos for DIY? Can I use outa' 1988 Saab 2.0liter

[TOBASH]

I have a couple of Mitsubishi and Garrett turbos languishing in my garage. As I am selling all cars Saab in my possession, and I want to turbo my 1981 BJ-44 with a 2B engine, I need to know what size turbo I need. (Note, this is NOT an offer to sell turbos. I ain't sellin' these). (Saab engines I refer to are 2.0 liter.)

What information do I need to provide to you, or what displacement car engine should the turbo be from for highway and city driving.

Also, what are the good water injection units out there? What are the good propane injection units for those times I need to accelerate onto a busy highway?

TIA,

T

[Dougal]

The turbo is probably in the usable range, if you can post up a picture and any numbers cast into the exhaust housing that'll help identify it.

I'd stay away from injecting foreign substances, there are very good reasons engine manufacturers don't use water and propane in diesel engines.

[marting]

This i believe is a saab turbo on a 3B The Owner was pleased with the performance i think.

[cody c]

mine is off a 2.3 litre cosworth(ford-merkur) and is about maybe a hair big, but i guess it depends how and where you drive your cruiser, you may want a slightly larger turbo for highway speeds, and a slightly smaller one for off-roading, where you dont have alot of room to get your engine up to speed.

[wesintl]

it's probably a tb0356 which is a .42/.48 turbo and would be perfect. Many of the garretts that are on 2L gas engines are this ratiowith some slight differences but are mapped perfect for a 3b

[brownbear]

Originally Posted by cody c

mine is off a 2.3 litre cosworth(ford-merkur) and is about maybe a hair big, but i guess it depends how and where you drive your cruiser, you may want a slightly larger turbo for highway speeds, and a slightly smaller one for off-roading, where you dont have alot of room to get your engine up to speed.

I found mine slightly large too. It provides large boost numbers when I'm stepping on it, and above 2500 rpm on the highway in 5th it will pull a constant 10 psi. So lots of boost. But at 2000 rpm its under 5 psi unless I am stepping it hard. I would have like to see boost under 2000 rpm.

But it does add a bunch of power. I believe it is a .48/.60 garrett... but I dunno. Now that I rebuilt it I don't want to replace it for a while. But I am keeping my eyes open for a brand new garrett..

[crushers]

Propane injection, contrary to what Roverboy is spouting, if installed properly and used properly PI is an excellent way to inccrease the performance of a turbo'd diesel.

Hey, Roverboy, got any links to a PROPERLY INSTALLED and maintained PI system failure of the engine?
(with all your PERSONAL experience)

Originally Posted by TOBASH

What are the good propane injection units for those times I need to accelerate onto a busy highway?

TIA,

T

[TOBASH]

Originally Posted by crushers

Propane injection, contrary to what Roverboy is spouting, if installed properly and used properly PI is an excellent way to inccrease the performance of a turbo'd diesel.

Hey, Roverboy, got any links to a PROPERLY INSTALLED and maintained PI system failure of the engine?
(with all your PERSONAL experience)

I appreciate Rover's input, so lets not get on him here. That being said, given these engines accept turbos pretty easily, a little propane and water should squirt right in. (Water should actually COOL the heads and make long drives with the turbo SAFER.) A turbo IMHO will tax a system far beyond anything propane and water might do.

That being said, does anyone have an answer for what propane injection and water injection units are best for these beasts?

Thanks one and all.

I will post specs on my turbos in a few hours.

[TOBASH]

Originally Posted by marting

This i believe is a saab turbo on a 3B The Owner was pleased with the performance i think.

As mentioned in the post immediately above, I will post specs as soon as I get them.

[crushers]

try powershot 2000 Untitled Document
these are the ones i have been using for a few years on different trucks... and i do push the limits (not recommended) with no catrastrophic failures, 3B, 1PZ, 1HZ, 2LTE, 2LT ...

[TOBASH]

Originally Posted by crushers

try powershot 2000 Untitled Document
these are the ones i have been using for a few years on different trucks... and i do push the limits (not recommended) with no catrastrophic failures, 3B, 1PZ, 1HZ, 2LTE, 2LT ...

Looks like another grand just got switched from savings to the beast.

Now I really have huge incentive to install the turbo.

[crushers]

the thing i like about the powershot 2000 system is the variable rate injection. this makes for a safe and smooth application of the gas unlike most systems that just dump the propane in...

you can also tailor it to your wants and needs so if you want just a couple cfm at highway speeds set it for that
or
if you want to set it for max injection at low boost... i DO NOT recommend this application unless you like speed, power and replacing the engine and other related driveline parts.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by TOBASH

I appreciate Rover's input, so lets not get on him here. That being said, given these engines accept turbos pretty easily, a little propane and water should squirt right in. (Water should actually COOL the heads and make long drives with the turbo SAFER.) A turbo IMHO will tax a system far beyond anything propane and water might do.

Propane and water can do very bad things to engines, I suggest some research (rather than just listening to vendors) before putting your engine and wallet on that line.

There isn't a single diesel engine maker in the world who advocates either propane or water injection. Yet almost every single one produces turbocharged engines.
Why do you think that is?

[Tapage]

why not start with a well fitted turbo in a fresh engine .. then a intercooler ( well fitted and sized ) and then when you are in the top of the capabilities of this setup step on water propane injection .. ?

[prado t]

Originally Posted by Dougal

Propane and water can do very bad things to engines, I suggest some research (rather than just listening to vendors) before putting your engine and wallet on that line.

There isn't a single diesel engine maker in the world who advocates either propane or water injection. Yet almost every single one produces turbocharged engines.
Why do you think that is?

This is irrelevant during or even now (may not be diesel but high compression) Rolls Royce used water methanol injection in their Merlins. Now adays For a diesel the Propane injection cools the intake plennum and charge air and helps burn the fuel especially for an overfueled motor. The water helps the motor for an over advanced injector spray in reducing the knock and as Crushers said cooling the piston and head. Propane and Water Methanol are measures for helping a motor tip the scales in overboosting and overfueling to lessen the self destuction.

You are right Diesel producers dont propane or water inject their engines but people do when they are trippling the power and keeping it from a melt down

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by prado t

This is irrelevant during or even now (may not be diesel but high compression) Rolls Royce used water methanol injection in their Merlins. Now adays For a diesel the Propane injection cools the intake plennum and charge air and helps burn the fuel especially for an overfueled motor. The water helps the motor for an over advanced injector spray in reducing the knock and as Crushers said cooling the piston and head. Propane and Water Methanol are measures for helping a motor tip the scales in overboosting and overfueling to lessen the self destuction.

You are right Diesel producers dont propane or water inject their engines but people do when they are trippling the power and keeping it from a melt down

A rolls-royce merlin is not a diesel engine. There are plenty of spark ignition engines injecting LPG, many run entirely on it. These engines have a compression ratio significantly lower than a diesel engine. Why is that?
The compression ratio is reduced because LPG (propane) detonates at diesel compression ratios, causing engine damage.

Adding propane to an already overfueled engine is really really dumb. People running 1/4 miles all day will make mods which drastically shorten engine life and not care, they're not far from help and are used to being traillered home.

Propane does not lessen self-destruction. Diesels do not knock (well not unless they've got propane injection). This is not a petrol engine, be very careful trying to apply petrol engine mods to a diesel.

[TOBASH]

I need to know if I can use the turbos I have. I think they are TD04 Garrett, and MItsu 13 a (or is it c).

As far as propane, there are diesel engines running on straight propane. For occasional acceleration onto a crowded speedy highway, I think propane should be safe.

Water injection is harmless and can keep head temps down.

Car companies don't always do what's good for the consumer. They do what is good for bottom line. As such, a tech discussion like this needs engineers explaining things, not laymen like us sniping back and forth IMHO.

Let's not start arguing amoungst ourselves please. I just wanted really simple answers. I did not want to start a rucus. We are all supposed to be friends here.

Best,

T

[crushers]

stick the turbo on and try it out...
as for all of us friends...nope. MOST of us are friends.

Originally Posted by TOBASH

We are all supposed to be friends here.
Best,
T

[VTCruiser]

Originally Posted by TOBASH

I need to know if I can use the turbos I have. I think they are TD04 Garrett, and MItsu 13 a (or is it c).

As far as propane, there are diesel engines running on straight propane. For occasional acceleration onto a crowded speedy highway, I think propane should be safe.

Water injection is harmless and can keep head temps down.

Car companies don't always do what's good for the consumer. They do what is good for bottom line. As such, a tech discussion like this needs engineers explaining things, not laymen like us sniping back and forth IMHO.

Let's not start arguing amoungst ourselves please. I just wanted really simple answers. I did not want to start a rucus. We are all supposed to be friends here.

Best,
T

it's been a while, but I used to own some old saabs too. IIRC, the early 900's came with a garrett T3. 1990 SPG's and all 1991 and later models came with the a Mitsubishi TD05 which is slightly small than the T3 for better quicker spool-up. The saab 2.3L motors came with the Mitsubishi TD04's.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

your second link also backs exactly what i have been saying (and you are not listening .. again) a PROPERLY installed system does not detonate but too much propane and it does...
can you actually understand this?

This is wrong.
Any propane present in a diesel engine will detonate, the amount of propane only changes whether you can hear it or not.

[TOBASH]

2 facts interested me the most:

1) propane is not injected at full compression, so it can "pre-ignite". (That would be bad).

2) If it pre-ignites and then fuel is injected in it can create a knock from 2 seperate pressure explosion waves. (That could be worse).

2a) It seems that natural gas ignites later in the pressure cycle so may be better.

Everything else sounded too "egg-head" for me and needed a translation as I am not sure why they were arguing over certain concepts.

There seem to be certain advantages they discussed too. Wish I could get a better handle on them. It is the advantages that I need to understand. It seems that propane can be used carefully and effectively. I need a translation of that stuff too. I want balanced discussion that I can grasp.

I just wanna be able to occassionally turn on an injector to get onto the highway quickly and gracefully without getting rear ended.

As far as water injection, do you have any engineering forums that discuss it?

Thanks for the interesting and frequently over my head articles. I did get some valuable information. Just wish I had gone beyond Integral Calculus.

Best,

T

Originally Posted by Dougal

I am an engineer, the people selling and fitting these devices and telling you they're safe are not engineers.
There are no "diesel" engines running on propane. The cummins/westport engines which run on gas are built as gas engines with a much lower compression ratio and spark ignition.

For other engineers opinions and tales of doom, read these.
Engine & fuel engineering - Propane enrichment for diesels
Engine & fuel engineering - Expert advise on diesel propane fumigation

Note the caterpillar guy noting increase in oil borne metal with the propane injection.
Note the lump of metal that used to be a piston.

Wayne (Crushers) sells and fits these systems, he is not an engineer and has no appreciation of the side-effects of these systems. The large number of insults he likes to include in his posts reflect this.

[TOBASH]

I just want information. I didn't want to start a winner-takes-all cage fight.

I just wanna get to highway speed in fast moving heavy traffic faster than 20 seconds. At every other time I want the propane injection to remain off.

Best to all, and thanks to all so far,

T

Originally Posted by tasnolan

Pictures worth a thousand words...

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by TOBASH

2 facts interested me the most:

1) propane is not injected at full compression, so it can "pre-ignite". (That would be bad).

The propane is present from the start of the compression, this is why it pre-ignites. If it were injected at a specific time (like diesel is) then it could be controlled and it wouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by TOBASH

2) If it pre-ignites and then fuel is injected in it can create a knock from 2 seperate pressure explosion waves. (That could be worse).

Yes, this is what happens. With too much gas it knocks loud enough to be heard outside a running diesel engine. With less gas it can't be heard over the engine itself.

Originally Posted by TOBASH

2a) It seems that natural gas ignites later in the pressure cycle so may be better.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, are you comparing propane to natural gas?

There is plenty of information on Eng-tips about water injection. It creates a lot of debate even there.

[marting]

Originally Posted by TOBASH

I just want information. I didn't want to start a winner-takes-all cage fight.

I just wanna get to highway speed in fast moving heavy traffic faster than 20 seconds. At every other time I want the propane injection to remain off.

Best to all, and thanks to all so far,

T

Let me throw a spanner in the works here!

Has nobody heard of nitrous? It's fairly cheap! pretty easy to install! Gives you exacltly what you want! a short boost of power at demand
Unless I have mistaken it works just as well on a diesel as a petrol engine!
Why go for an expensive, semi-experimantal (there is obviously some disagreement around it's useability) and advanced set up, when you can do it easy?

Besides, I think you'll find it quick enough when the turbo is in place anyway