[marting]

I noe there must be hundereds of previous threads about this, but i'm still gonna start my own.
My hj60 is getting a turbo..
I have already bought and made mounts for a front intercooler. it's quite big. 80x500x250 or somthing like that..
I will make a 3" exaust all the way from prebendt diy stuff.
I also have a radiator from an automatic that has a buildt in oil cooler, though i might use it for something (return-oil from turbo perhaps?)

What size turbo?

I'm on a pretty tight budget so a big 4000$ kit is out of the question. I need something used or some bargain

Any suggestions for specific turboes?
Or information about capasities or technical stuff is much abliged.

The engine is far from new. I wont be running very high boost, I only want better driveability 150 bhp and 400nm would be nice.

[rchalmers3]

Marting,

I have no direct experience to offer you, but I intend to perform the same DIY in the near future, so don't mind me tagging along!

While I don't know where you are located or your proximity to parts and other resources, I thought I'd spew some thoughts and resources that I think you may find useful:

Fellow mud participant Tapage has installed a turbo and intercooler on his 60 series. I believe his threads are very useful for your purposes. Search his name for the appropriate threads detailing his journey through DIY problem/solution landia.

I read a paper somewhere online (not wikipedia) that indicated there is no performance gains from using 3" exhaust tubing. For a 2H motor, 2 1/2" is plenty of diameter to eliminate any restriction. However the area betwen the turbo outlet and the exhaust pipe is critical, requiring an expansion cone. I believe the cone recommended had a 15 degree angle for expansion, of approx 9" to 13" in length. Not sure about that. If you are interested I'll go hunt for that paper.

"I only want better driveability 150 bhp and 400nm would be nice." You will want to determine where on the RPM band you want this type of output, low, mid range or high RPMs. Deciding this will help those more knowledgable about specific turbos make a recommendation.

Obtaining a used turbo and adaptor might depend somewhat on your location. Resources where I live are certainly a constraint, so please continue to post your progress. I may choose to piggy back on your solutions!

One recommendation I recommend will be to get your motor prepared for the install: Injector cleaning/testing, IP diaphram replacement and installation of a pyrometer and oil temp gauge. You may also want to adjust your IP fuel delivery before the turbo install following the above in order to create a stable, measured baseline.

Please post pictures of your intercooler and chosen mounting location and method.

Thanks and best wishes,

Rick

[Tapage]

Select a turbo .. there are a several threads here with bunch of info about it .. opinions .. a lots' !

.38 - .48 AR .. should be your range for turbine housing and from there depends what do you want to do .. I personal pic a KKK 26.8 for my aplication and now I'm boosting 14 PSI - 15 PSI that it's a lot for a hi compresion engine like a 2H ..

Go for 3" exhaust if you want .. I don't think it really gonna make a huge diference in our aplications .. compared to 2.5 as Rick already comment.

[rchalmers3]

One more comment. Please indicate the parameters of your truck: Tire size, trans type, axle gear ratios. Be sure to describe how you intend to use the truck. Pictures help us visual types....

Rick

[marting]

Originally Posted by rchalmers3

One more comment. Please indicate the parameters of your truck: Tire size, trans type, axle gear ratios. Be sure to describe how you intend to use the truck. Pictures help us visual types....

Rick

Hey! I have a 4 speed tranny. standard gearing all the way. I'm running 32's today but might buy 33's next time.
I'll use the car mainly as a daily driver and for road-trips.. It's my only car.. As for pictures i need to learn how to make pictures smaller.. my camera makes to nice pictures for this forum.
You can check out my "garage" on the norwegian Cruiser forum.
Norsk Land Cruiser Klubb :: Vis Temaet - MartinG's HJ60
I took pictures of the intercooler mounted yesterday.. they'r coming.

Exhaust: 2,5" might be enough, yeah.. the price difference is pretty small though, and there is plenty of room so i might still go with the 3". unless 2,5 is BETTER.?
As i said i'm not bulding a monster, but for sure i'll run as high a boost as can without "cooking" the engine. I want to keep it "smooth" though And i hate being concerned about the temp. gauge to the point where it's dangerous to drive.. Like it was in my Mitsubitchy

The plan is to flip the manifold around and mount the turbo high up near the front of the motor.. I'll have someone custom-make an adapter pipe from the manifold to the turbo.
It will have to have a 90 degree bend (depending on the turbo)
I have been recommended a watercooled T. If that's what i end up with i guess the return-water from the T should go as directly to the radiator as possible, so i guess into the waterhose near the radiator inlet. For water TO the T I'm wondering about the coolant drain-plug on the side of the block...If that's no good i guess it has to be on the oulet hose deep down on the wrong side of the engine.. I assume biggest possible temprature difference is what we are after..the colder the water to the T the better. And the faster we can cool the return without transfering heat to the engine....also good!

I'm also aware of some disagreement about wether an IC is really neccesary with the relatively low boost i plan to run.. But i got a sweet deal on it and thought "aschh... can't hurt"
If it turns out it will, I'll just sell it (with the bracket i made)
If it has little effect but no negative ones I'll still keep it ..cause it looks cool

I certainly don't mind anyone tagging along on my inquieries. It's what the forum is for right? finding the best solutions together!

I guess this was more than an indication chalmers... I'm a bit of "motormouth"...

[Miamirex]

If you go "all the way" you will include methanol/water injection to really cool the inlet temps, Regards

[Dougal]

What is the rev limit on the 2H and do you already have a manifold with a turbo flange?

For any engine there are a range of turbos you can use depending on whether you want more low end torque and the maximum usable rev range or are just shooting for high rpm power.

An intercooler won't hurt unless you do something really silly.

[marting]

Hi Dougal. The 2H will go up to 4000 rpm. But in normal driving I very rearly venture beyond the 3000 rpm mark. I never cruise at over 2500.

I'm not looking for high end power. If it "dies" a little over say 3200 rpm then that is ok.

The manifold have some sort of flange on wich the exhaust is mounted. I will have to make an adapter anyway. This has been done many times so I'm not really worried about that.

[marting]

In the picture above you can see the manifold flipped over..Not my car

By the way, there are some new pictures of the intercooler-mounting in my NLCK garage Norsk Land Cruiser Klubb :: Vis Temaet - MartinG's HJ60

[ozwallaby]

Marting, don't use the radiator for turbo return oil. The return pipe should flow downward to the sideplate or the sump ABOVE the oil level. When the oil goes through the turbo it gets frothed up similar to a milkshake so it doesn't really flow well through oil pipes. The pipe should be the same size as what comes out of the turbo and point downward all the way.... I too will be watching this thread.. goodluck

[rchalmers3]

Originally Posted by ozwallaby

Marting, don't use the radiator for turbo return oil. The return pipe should flow downward to the sideplate or the sump ABOVE the oil level. When the oil goes through the turbo it gets frothed up similar to a milkshake so it doesn't really flow well through oil pipes. The pipe should be the same size as what comes out of the turbo and point downward all the way.... I too will be watching this thread.. goodluck

What do you recommend? A seperate oil cooler plumbed from the engine oil galley? Does a turbo install necessitate this, or it it installers choice?

Rick

[Jan-78FJ40]

Originally Posted by rchalmers3

What do you recommend? A seperate oil cooler plumbed from the engine oil galley? Does a turbo install necessitate this, or it it installers choice?

Rick

Using the radiator to return the cooling water (NOT oil) is just fine. However, water cooling is not required in a 2H, the temps never get that high.
Also, an oil cooler is overkill. just take the oil from the vac pump at the alternator, and return it either into the sump, or the side covers under the turbo.
cheers,
j

[Tapage]

Another 2H one piece fliped manifold ... why I didn't found 'em as my Turbo time . ?

The power bando for a 2H ( IMOP ) start around 1600 rpm and end at 3000 rpm .. as same as other I don't feel compfortable pushing my 2H far from 3000 rpm .. and believe that the IP governor in my case it's setted to 3600 rpm ...

I'm running 14 - 15 PSI intercooled from the day 2 ( day one have a leak ) without any ETG problem .. actually with my fuel turned up several turns barely reach 1200 ºF ..

I take my oil line from the factory oil sender with a tee and back to the oil pan ..

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by marting

Hi Dougal. The 2H will go up to 4000 rpm. But in normal driving I very rearly venture beyond the 3000 rpm mark. I never cruise at over 2500.

I'm not looking for high end power. If it "dies" a little over say 3200 rpm then that is ok.

The manifold have some sort of flange on wich the exhaust is mounted. I will have to make an adapter anyway. This has been done many times so I'm not really worried about that.

I run a Garrett T25 on my 3.9L Isuzu, but it is governed to 3600rpm and rarely ever sees 3000.
I'm running 20psi boost which is outside what the turbo makers ever intended.

One of these will work for a 2H, but I'd be inclined to go a little larger. A T25 with 0.64 A/R exhaust would work if you're looking for used turbos.
If you want a new one then the smallest you would want is the Garrett GT2252
TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog

The Garrett GT2560R would be my pick. These are the old Garrett T28, slightly smaller than the famous disco-potato but the same family.
TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog
I know someone fitting one of these to a 3.9L Isuzu like mine, we'll let you know how he likes it.

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by Dougal

A T25 with 0.64 A/R exhaust would work if you're looking for used turbos.

a .64 don't sound little larger for a 2H engine and low end power concept .. ?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by Tapage

a .64 don't sound little larger for a 2H engine and low end power concept .. ?

A 0.64 on a T25 is equivalent to about 0.54 on a T3 or the KKK you have.
An intercooled 4 litre engine at 4000rpm could overspeed the 0.49 A/R T25, possibly killing it, that's why I'm relunctant to suggest that one.

I'm running the T25 on my 3.9L outside it's limits already, but I'm much happier to experiment on my own truck than leaving someone else stranded.

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by Dougal

A 0.64 on a T25 is equivalent to about 0.54 on a T3 or the KKK you have.

why this diference in a T25 .. ?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by Tapage

why this diference in a T25 .. ?

It's due to the different exhaust wheel size.

The exhaust scroll creates a vortex, the exhaust wheel interrupts that vortex to create torque on the shaft.
In a free vortex the further you go in, the higher the gas velocity. So bigger wheels interrupt the vortex further out where the gas velocity is lower, that's why you need a smaller A/R ratio with a bigger wheel.

My engine originally came with an IHI turbo which is equivalent to a T3 with a 0.42 A/R exhaust housing.
I'm now using a T25 with a 0.49 A/R housing and they spool up at almost exactly the same point.

Multiply the A/R by the wheel radius and you get what I call the effective flow area. It's a handy number for comparing the spool up point of different turbos.
Remember A/R is usually in inches, so you need to know the wheel radius in inches. A T3 usually has a 60mm (2.36") exhaust wheel.

[marting]

I see... I'm getting wiser. But new questions arise! What is IP? What do I need to do with the fuel-supply?

[marting]

Well thanx so far guys.. keep'em coming. I'll update as soon as something happens!

This weekend is NLCK's (Norwegian Land Cruiser Club) big annual meet!
So if you need me you know where i am. I'll take som pictures!
Have a good weekend.

Martin

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by Dougal

It's due to the different exhaust wheel size.

The exhaust scroll creates a vortex, the exhaust wheel interrupts that vortex to create torque on the shaft.
In a free vortex the further you go in, the higher the gas velocity. So bigger wheels interrupt the vortex further out where the gas velocity is lower, that's why you need a smaller A/R ratio with a bigger wheel.

My engine originally came with an IHI turbo which is equivalent to a T3 with a 0.42 A/R exhaust housing.
I'm now using a T25 with a 0.49 A/R housing and they spool up at almost exactly the same point.

Multiply the A/R by the wheel radius and you get what I call the effective flow area. It's a handy number for comparing the spool up point of different turbos.
Remember A/R is usually in inches, so you need to know the wheel radius in inches. A T3 usually has a 60mm (2.36") exhaust wheel.

Thanks Dougal .. I didn't pay much atention to trim numbers in the wheels that I selected .. and actually should be interesting see those numbers for my KKK that it's a .38 AR in the turbine side ..

[rchalmers3]

Originally Posted by Dougal

I run a Garrett T25 on my 3.9L Isuzu, but it is governed to 3600rpm and rarely ever sees 3000.
I'm running 20psi boost which is outside what the turbo makers ever intended.

One of these will work for a 2H, but I'd be inclined to go a little larger. A T25 with 0.64 A/R exhaust would work if you're looking for used turbos.

Dougal your Isuzu 3.9L sounds very similar to the 2H. It turns slow and has a similar displacement. Hey, I have an idea and request: Do you have enough info on the 2H to map the T25 .49 A/R and T25 .64 A/R for us?? If you don't, maybe you could map them using your motor.

It would be interesting to see exactly what the margin of saftey is you are refering to.... in a graphical format!

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by rchalmers3

Dougal your Isuzu 3.9L sounds very similar to the 2H. It turns slow and has a similar displacement. Hey, I have an idea and request: Do you have enough info on the 2H to map the T25 .49 A/R and T25 .64 A/R for us?? If you don't, maybe you could map them using your motor.

It would be interesting to see exactly what the margin of saftey is you are refering to.... in a graphical format!

The capacity of the two engines is similar enough, that the main difference comes down to the revs.
The 2H revs about 10% more which gives you another 10% possible air consumption. I'll post up a map later on but it may take a while as I'm currently investing my spare time in some turbo adapters.

The compressor maps of the T25 with the 0.64 A/R exhaust housing aren't any different, but it'll give a little less exhaust restriction so it won't be as likely to blow the exhaust valves open. My Isuzu was a factory turbo and fitted to trucks with exhaust brakes, so it has no problem running up to 40psi exhaust backpressure.
The 2H I wouldn't like to put through the same test.

[Tapage]

One detail that I realized in the Tencha turbo process .. I'm not hable to make the IP of Tencha deliver the apropiate amount of diesel that I want for my turbo setup. Should be related to the inline pump ( but the 12H-T have inline pump and looks pretty the same ) or to the factory fuel settings in a NA IDI engine ..

[rchalmers3]

[quote=Dougal;3396912]The capacity of the two engines is similar enough, that the main difference comes down to the revs.
The 2H revs about 10% more which gives you another 10% possible air consumption.[quote]

The revs you refering to are the governed engine speeds, right? What if (as marting indicates in post #8) the driver has lower speed driving characteristics and needs, and is willing to sacrafice a drop off at the high end? Would that change your recommendation or is it your opinion to put the margin in anyway? I'm tuned into this because it sounds like his vehicle and driving needs are very similar to mine, and I'd like to install a system that works as intended the first time. My guess is he would like to experience boost as soon as the throttle is cracked and experience boost at 1k rpm.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by rchalmers3

The revs you refering to are the governed engine speeds, right? What if (as marting indicates in post #8) the driver has lower speed driving characteristics and needs, and is willing to sacrafice a drop off at the high end? Would that change your recommendation or is it your opinion to put the margin in anyway? I'm tuned into this because it sounds like his vehicle and driving needs are very similar to mine, and I'd like to install a system that works as intended the first time. My guess is he would like to experience boost as soon as the throttle is cracked and experience boost at 1k rpm.

Yes certainly, an intelligent driver watching their gauges can get away with a setup that a meathead could blow their engine with.

Just making sure you realise the risks.

[rchalmers3]

Originally Posted by Dougal

It's due to the different exhaust wheel size.

The exhaust scroll creates a vortex, the exhaust wheel interrupts that vortex to create torque on the shaft.
In a free vortex the further you go in, the higher the gas velocity. So bigger wheels interrupt the vortex further out where the gas velocity is lower, that's why you need a smaller A/R ratio with a bigger wheel.

My engine originally came with an IHI turbo which is equivalent to a T3 with a 0.42 A/R exhaust housing.
I'm now using a T25 with a 0.49 A/R housing and they spool up at almost exactly the same point.

Multiply the A/R by the wheel radius and you get what I call the effective flow area. It's a handy number for comparing the spool up point of different turbos.
Remember A/R is usually in inches, so you need to know the wheel radius in inches. A T3 usually has a 60mm (2.36") exhaust wheel.

With all the variables in turbo construction, does your "effective flow area" calculation give you your best fit recommendation of the Garrett GT2560R? Or do you favor a turbo that's close but has a ball bearing?

Would you please demonstrate the calculation on the turbos you recommend? I'd like to see the results and meaning you glean from the results.

Also, Marting will probably not be buying a new turbo. My guess is that these arn't available used??

Rick

[rtarh2o]

Just curious what the power would be for a turbo 2H? Would it be possible to install one in an 80 series?
Rusty

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by rchalmers3

With all the variables in turbo construction, does your "effective flow area" calculation give you your best fit recommendation of the Garrett GT2560R? Or do you favor a turbo that's close but has a ball bearing?

Would you please demonstrate the calculation on the turbos you recommend? I'd like to see the results and meaning you glean from the results.

Also, Marting will probably not be buying a new turbo. My guess is that these arn't available used??

Rick

The "effective flow area" isn't something I can use to fit a turbo to an engine, but it allows me to compare two turbos of different sizes without just guessing.
My T25 comes out at 323 square millimetres
The GT2560 comes out at 430 square millimetres so it's roughly 25% bigger in the turbine.

The GT2052 that Diesel42 is using comes out at 298 square millimetres, slightly smaller than the T25 I'm using.

There are several guys in Aussie running the old T28 on 3.9L Isuzus like mine and they're very happy with the results. But I haven't seen or driven their vehicles so I can't offer a comparison with mine.

[marting]

WO WO Take it easy guys. This got very technical. lets take it back down a few notches. What is IP ?
What do i have to do with the fuel system? just adjust it? Or add parts?
So from what i have learned:

Oil: from T-piece added to the preassure-feeler thing, return in sump or push-rod cover.

Water: from the drainplug on the block to the hose going out from the termostat.

Exaust: 2,5 or 3" with a "flow-through" silencer

Intercooler: to late, it's already bought. 250x500x76mm 3"in-outlet.

Turbo: To small better than to big?
The easiest to get here i think would be something from a 2-2,5 liter petrol-engine. From Saab or Volvo maybe..What else is there to concider. any small pipes, vacuum, fuel-regulation and so on????