Actual improvement with intercooler

[lshobie]

Very nice post - I will move my controller this weekend. Man, some good tips pop up on this board eh.

Thanks very much.

Louis

[crushers]

nah, that is the fertilizer under the bush...
[quote=BillyGHusk;3322586]is that the little red berries on the holly bush?
QUOTE]

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by nicks90

2) EGT can be reduced by lowering the boost pressure in the inlet due to restrictive intercooler.
correct. Most diesel turbos have a wastegate to control the amount of boost they deliver. this is usually situated right after the compressor.
Adding restrictions to the inlet after this point will rob the intake manifold of pressure - because the wastegate doesnt care where the final restriction is, it just knows its hitting 15psi and opens!
This loss of boost at the cylinder can be offset by the greater density/lower temps - therefore producing simillar overall power and hence why some people notice no power increase or decrease when running an i/c
solution!!! - the wastegate is usually operated by bleeding pressure from the compressor side via a small tube. relocate this tube onto a tapped hole on the intake manifold, This will ensure the boost pressure at the cylinder will be 15psi irrespective of what restrictions are between the compressor and inlet manifold. As long as the restrictions are sooooo massive as to exceed the possible boost deliverable by the turbo (very very unlikely) then it works very well.
this is standard practice on tdi defenders when fitted with full width intercoolers. Boost would normally drop by 1psi - simply relocate the pipe and you regain the boost.

Downside of an i/c - increased turbo lag
1) you are pressurising an increased volume of air between the compressor and the cylinder. Takes longer
2) if the i/c is causing significant restrictions to air flow - add some extra lag to the above.


all this arse about mapping turbos has already been done - by TOYOTA! They mapped the appropriate turbo characteristics to the appropriate engine. Adding an intercooler into the mix makes no difference to the volumetric capabilities of the engine (you aint changing head design or valve sizes or displacement) and the volumetric capabilities of the turbo supplying it.

On point 2. That increases boost, doesn't decrease it. The extra air reduces egt's.

And your last point about volume flow.
Intercooling increases the volume of air that a turbo and engine has to move.
Where do you think those extra air molecules you're cramming into the cyilnders come from?

[Talos]

...hope this works.

[83bj60]

Excellent posts of late! I was also wondering, and found suspicious, that a temperature drop of X would produce the same temperature drop in the exhaust. I believe the effect of increased oxygen availability/air pressure on combustion efficiency and flame front speed was forgotten, and can explain why in real life the EGT temperatures drop in fact by a much wider margin than what is simply produced by the intercooler intake temperature drop.

Now let me add another question to this discussion: what about use in winter time when temperatures are extremely cold? Shouldn't the intercooler be bypassed when air is very cold, or when the engine is cold? Hasn't anyone noticed that the engine seems to work at its best around 10C, indicating a real effect by intake air temperatures?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 83bj60

Now let me add another question to this discussion: what about use in winter time when temperatures are extremely cold? Shouldn't the intercooler be bypassed when air is very cold, or when the engine is cold? Hasn't anyone noticed that the engine seems to work at its best around 10C, indicating a real effect by intake air temperatures?

If your engine struggles to keep operating temp then it could be worthwhile.
Otherwise colder is better.

No need to bypass it, a piece of cardboard stopping airflow would do.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by Dougal

No need to bypass [the intercooler], a piece of cardboard stopping airflow would do

D'oh! Why didn't I think of it myself... Now you're talking practical!!!... Hmmm.. How about a thermostatically controlled rad louver to control the cooling then , hehe...

I've been thinking intercooling lately not only because the warm weather is finally upon us, but because I'm seriously thinking about converting to [at least part-time] WVO fueling, and was thinking that probably, a great dual purpose installation for cooling AND keeping combustion clean, would be water injection... Seems so much simpler...

What do you guys think of the idea? Just wondering if it hasn't been tried already...

[gerg]

Water injection is done all the time, but It would be my last choice for cooling charged air. It seems like a much more labor intensive/ potentially dangerous option, depending on how you do it I suppose.
Inter-cooling is pretty much a bolt on and forget solution.

That being said... I plan on do it to mine, but more for all out power than a regular use item.
G

[Tapage]

For water injection .. I will choose propane injection for the same results.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by Tapage

For water injection .. I will choose propane injection for the same results.

Water injection cools the charge air and steam cleans the combustion chamber, while propane adds fuel and increases burning efficiency. A bit different, wouldn't you say!

[crushers]

actually, propane also cools the charge...

but yes different...

Originally Posted by 83bj60

Water injection cools the charge air and steam cleans the combustion chamber, while propane adds fuel and increases burning efficiency. A bit different, wouldn't you say!

[Tapage]

At the end what you you want it's more powa .. so water / propane injection are diferent but the same target ..

How much dificult are .. in the long term maybe propane should be more expensive, but water more dangerous .?

[gerg]

I would use caution and alot of math before doing either.
G

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

actually, propane also cools the charge...

but yes different...

Propane only cools when it's expanding from liquid to gas, when it's burnt it releases far more heat.
If it didn't, then cigarette lighters wouldn't work.

So if you're substituting diesel for propane, you can end up with a slightly lower EGT, but if you're adding (instead of substituting) propane onto your full shot of diesel then you're increasing EGT's markedly.

Basically.
Swapping liquid fuel for gaseous fuel = slightly lower EGT.
Same amount of liquid fuel + gaseous fuel = higher EGT.

[crushers]

exactly.
end of discussion.

Originally Posted by Dougal

Propane cools when it's expanding from liquid to gas,.

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by Dougal

Same amount of liquid fuel + gaseous fuel = higher EGT.

But more powa .?

More powa compared to the same setup but instead of propane, water mist injection ?

[83bj60]

OK, got it... Slightly lower egt at same energy output... So basically a great mod if you want slightly more power while maintaing similar egts...

Economy wise, though, I'm not convincved... I just got my propane bill, and it's steep! Prices here a way higher than what you pay for the stuff out west... Same with Diesel, of course (1.49.9 last week), but I presume the difference for diesel is not that high...

But what about water injection? It should cool the air charge, increasing oxygen content and clean the combustion chamber at the same time, a win-win situation, don't you think? Plus it shouldn't be so hard to make/install? What's the status of research on water injection in diesel engines? Anyone know the latest developments?

[joshoisasleep]

nobody's mentioned hydrogen injection... there's a great thread on it in the alternative fuels section

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

nobody's mentioned hydrogen injection... there's a great thread on it in the alternative fuels section

There's a lot of BS around about that too. People claiming 100% improvement in mileage from a device that produces about 1 bubble of hydrogen in every room full of air your engine breathes.

I'd give those a miss.

[83bj60]

Well any fuel added is probably not going to reduce net fuel consumption and my not really improve efficiency like intercooling will...

The reason I was asking about water injection was precisely for that cooling effect with the added bonus of combustion chamber cleaning, that could probably compensate for potentially increased coking due to WVO injection...

In other words, I was looking at increasing combustion efficiency while keeping the combustion chamber clean to allow safe use of WVO...

[matt 105]

Originally Posted by gerg

I would use caution and alot of math before doing either.
G

I bet you do Neither

[matt 105]

Great intercooler thread!

[gerg]

Yeah its more like I try and I still get it wrong heh.

[Sarmajor]

Hi there,
I had a Safari Intercoler installed on my HDJ80 Landruiser. They did the install while the vehicle was strapped down on their dyno. Did a run before and got 79Kw at the rear wheels. Did the install and then did a run after adjusting the fuel. Seeing as I do not have an EGT guage fitted we adjusted the output back to 97Kw at the rear wheels. Saw 120Kw on one run but the exhaust was a bit black and thick so we dialed the fuel back for the 97Kw output.

Fuel economy dropped a very small amount and is very related to the right foot. The more fun you have the less fuel economy you get.

Very worthwhile thing to do though.

Cheers


Hedley

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by Sarmajor

Hi there,
I had a Safari Intercoler installed on my HDJ80 Landruiser. They did the install while the vehicle was strapped down on their dyno. Did a run before and got 79Kw at the rear wheels. Did the install and then did a run after adjusting the fuel. Seeing as I do not have an EGT guage fitted we adjusted the output back to 97Kw at the rear wheels. Saw 120Kw on one run but the exhaust was a bit black and thick so we dialed the fuel back for the 97Kw output.

Fuel economy dropped a very small amount and is very related to the right foot. The more fun you have the less fuel economy you get.

Very worthwhile thing to do though.

Cheers


Hedley

Sounds good, was it bone-stock beforehand?

[Sarmajor]

Yep, bone stock except for an OME suspension kit that was fitted because the std springs had given up th ghost.

Cheers

Hedley