Actual improvement with intercooler

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

you can go through life worrying about every little thing and living by the book
or
you can actually pull your nose out of the books and experience and enjoy life

each to their own.

if the turbo makes the engine rock, if the intercooler keeps the egts down then life is good, now throw some propane into the old girl and hold on.

me, i pay people to design the turbo, i pay to have the proper intercooler designed and it works. if it is ourside peak efficency, tough ****. the truck rocks, the fuel economy is way better than expected and the EGTs are well within the safety zone.

if you are happy the, in the end, that is all that really matters. after all we are working with old diesels not friggin race engines that we are trying to squeeze every last ounce of power out of.

If everyone thought like that, we'd still be living in caves.
Understanding is the key to success. Without it you're just wasting good time and money.

[awill4x4]

Think of your intercooler as a "heatsink". When you are accelerating under boost your intake air temps are higher than that of the intercooler so the intercooler drags heat out of the boosted air.
If you do this for long enough and the intercooler is too small or inefficient the temps on the I/cooler will eventually reach a point where it cannot remove any more temps out of the air, as it is heated up to a point where there are equal temps between I/cooler and boosted air.
Now when you get off boost, the intake air is now cooler than the I/cooler so it drags heat out of the I/cooler along with whatever cooling medium your intercooler uses (air/air, water/air).
This actually heats up the air from the turbo when it's not being boosted until such time as the I/cooler temps have dropped below intake temps.
A large heavy intercooler takes longer to heat up but it also takes longer to cool down so intercooler selection can be something of a "black art".
I've found the aftermarket I/cooler cores to be generally more efficient than the factory ones with some exceptions, (factory Mitsubishi Evo I/coolers are very good).
The one below on a Nissan Patrol Diesel 4x4 is using a replacement core to build a longer top mount intercooler than the factory one. It gave only a small difference in bhp (9 bhp) but an increase in torque of 10%.
The dyno runs were also done when the larger cooler was still hot from heat soak and the factory cooler was cold so the differences would have been even greater if both coolers were the same temps to start with.
The bottom graph I find interesting is the manifold pressure "M" where it is obvious the factory intercooler has "hit the wall" at 2800-2900 rpm and lost boost pressure as the wastegate opens but the new one's boost curve is as flat as Texas.
The owner tells me the new one has also picked up 1-1.5 psi boost pressure in normal running.
No temps in or out were taken but I would be very surprised if the intake temps weren't significantly better.
Regards Andrew.

[joshoisasleep]

so what's the big difference with front mount vs top mount anyway in terms of results?

[awill4x4]

That same Nissan engine above is what I would like to experiment with using the same Laminova cores that Matt has used on his.
My idea though is to build them into the intake manifold after slicing it like a cake (thanks Matt) and building a new plenum to keep them on the side of the motor not over the top of the rocker cover so access for maintenance isn't compromised.
Below is pic of one built by ARE here in Oz of the same engine but using a very special water to air I/cooler core, it worked very well by all accounts but regular maintenance means the removal of the intake manifold to gain access to injectors and glow plugs.
I would like to keep my Laminova cores in the curved section of the plenum even if it means increasing its size to accommodate them.
Regards Andrew.

[awill4x4]

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

so what's the big difference with front mount vs top mount anyway in terms of results?

Better engine response due to shorter intake lengths, no compromising the airflow to the radiator (the Nissans have been known to have marginal cooling)
Better protection in case of an accident, generally no problems with blocking an intercooler with mud in a boghole.
Sure it's a compromise but it's a 2.5-3 tonne 4x4 not a sports car where every last kiloWatt/bhp counts. Nearly all 4x4 turbo diesels have gone to top mount coolers primarily for those reasons.
Have a look at the front of most modern 4x4s often there isn't much room at the front any more with radiators, air con condensors and often engine/tranmission and power steering coolers.
Regards Andrew.

[joshoisasleep]

Originally Posted by awill4x4

Better engine response due to shorter intake lengths, no compromising the airflow to the radiator (the Nissans have been known to have marginal cooling)
Better protection in case of an accident, generally no problems with blocking an intercooler with mud in a boghole.
Sure it's a compromise but it's a 2.5-3 tonne 4x4 not a sports car where every last kiloWatt/bhp counts. Nearly all 4x4 turbo diesels have gone to top mount coolers primarily for those reasons.
Have a look at the front of most modern 4x4s often there isn't much room at the front any more with radiators, air con condensors and often engine/tranmission and power steering coolers.
Regards Andrew.

So it's less efficient at cooling?

[awill4x4]

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

So it's less efficient at cooling?

I would hazard a guess and say yes it wouldn't be as efficient as a front mount but with the some of the benefits you get from a top mount I mentioned previously.
I did say it was a compromise.
Regards Andrew.

[crushers]

LOL!!
now when did i say that the people i pay to design the turbo and intercooler did a poor job of it? Dougal made a statement, based on assumtions, that the set up was not at peak efficency. he never backed his statement so, to me, it was just hot air being spouted to make himself feel important.

now, if it makes you feel better to sit with a bunch of books learning how things work, bully for you. for me, if i can bolt on a mapped turbo and a mapped intercooler, a well designed propane injection system in a weekend of wrenching and be back on the road enjoying the fruits of my labour then ... bully for me.

each to their own.

it is when a book worm has to try and put everyone else down, including shops that design and manufacture the parts, then i loose interest in his opinion about everything.

Originally Posted by gerg

rather than pay people to do a bad job of it. g

[crushers]

man oh man

so if we didn't have the almighty engineer then we would be living in caves, eh? a little high on yourself aren't you?

as for wasting time and money, i guess you have never met another engineer that wasted much time and huge money due to piss poor engineered designing... must be nice to live in such a deluded, secluded world.

if it wasn't for the labourers, and the red necks, we would still be living in caves looking at a drawing on a wall waiting for the engineer to get it right.

intersting, i have met 4 engineers that became friends. one quit the profession because of the 'bullshit' he saw going on. another admitted engineers are arogant dreamers, another got so frustrated of having to work from the incorrect designs given to him from engineers that he became one
(and he had to be the smartest engineer i have met. his designs WORKED each time we had to build from them) and just recently i met another that also admitted engineers are high on themselves.

now to get back to this thread, not everyone wants to invest the time to learn how to design a turbo or an intercooler. most want to understand the principal behind what it does and that is good enough. they want to be able to enjoy the turbo and if it isn't working at perfect (on paper) efficiency, they can live with that.

Originally Posted by Dougal

If everyone thought like that, we'd still be living in caves.
Understanding is the key to success. Without it you're just wasting good time and money.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

LOL!!
now when did i say that the people i pay to design the turbo and intercooler did a poor job of it? Dougal made a statement, based on assumtions, that the set up was not at peak efficency. he never backed his statement so, to me, it was just hot air being spouted to make himself feel important.

now, if it makes you feel better to sit with a bunch of books learning how things work, bully for you. for me, if i can bolt on a mapped turbo and a mapped intercooler, a well designed propane injection system in a weekend of wrenching and be back on the road enjoying the fruits of my labour then ... bully for me.

each to their own.

it is when a book worm has to try and put everyone else down, including shops that design and manufacture the parts, then i loose interest in his opinion about everything.

So what's involved in mapping a turbo?

Oh look, it's a lot of maths and *gasp* book reading.
Without people who understand these functions, you don't have turbos or intercoolers that work properly, let alone are matched to your engine and operating conditions.

Keep the insults coming.

[joshoisasleep]

Where's all the hate coming from? Dougal is just trying to be helpful in sharing his massive wealth of actual knowledge about this subject, where most of us (some like me more than others) are just grasping at straws. Personally I think that even though there may be other factors in our individual engines that affect the results, it's a huge benefit to us all to have an actual engineer here to tell us how the actual physics work!

Sure real world results often don't match the books because of other factors, but claiming that that makes the books wrong is like saying your algebra textbook is incorrect because you did all the problems and added extra variables as you went.

Originally Posted by crushers

it is when a book worm has to try and put everyone else down, including shops that design and manufacture the parts, then i loose interest in his opinion about everything.

No offense Wayne, but I think you must have taken something the wrong way somewhere back in this thread... the only one I see putting someone else down here is you. I wouldn't even get involved if it weren't that I value Dougal's knowledge and don't want it to go away because of something like this.

Maybe you could tell us more about your setup that was designed by a specialist company that saw 200 degree benefits at lower than 20 PSI? I'm sure there's a more sensible solution than all this. Granted I'm not as knowledgeable as you, but I too have a setup designed by a company for my specific application that looks like it could do with some more cooling...

[crushers]

hate is a strong word, it isn't hate, it is disgust.

Alamo has been designing and wrenching on turbos since 1978. they are the ones that design my turbos for specific applications.
Alamo Industries Inc.

they know their stuff and i respect how they treat those with limited understanding of how turbos work. they do not lord it over you or talk down to you. they reason with you and explain what, why and how of the design. then Dougal comes along spouting they make inefficient turbos (even though he has never tested one of them either on the bench or in real life) i took offense to his accusations.

now i might be wrong in this statement, but, if i remember correctly, he also told Louis what he needed for a turbo and when Louis install the turbo and intercooler with a 200 degree drop then suddenly the turbo Dougal designed is now inefficient. WTF?

i never said book knowledge is wrong, but living by the book with limited real world experience is. they go hand in hand. you can design something but untill you actually try it out you do not know everything there is the know with real world application. THAT is my problem with Dougal, his attitude towards people that live in the real world.

a mapped turbo is a turbo that has been designed to work with the engine size and driving habits of the individual. a generic turbo such as Safari, ATX etc are designed to perform over a broad range of driving styles and is not specific to anyone driving style. if you are towing heavy loads at low speeds you will want a different turbo for your diesel than a guy that drives highway speeds towing nothing back and forth to work at 75 mph.

i am out of here, enjoy the one sided 'know it all'...

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

No offense Wayne, but I think you must have taken something the wrong way somewhere back in this thread... the only one I see putting someone else down here is you. I wouldn't even get involved if it weren't that I value Dougal's knowledge and don't want it to go away because of something like this.

Maybe you could tell us more about your setup that was designed by a specialist company that saw 200 degree benefits at lower than 20 PSI? I'm sure there's a more sensible solution than all this. Granted I'm not as knowledgeable as you, but I too have a setup designed by a company for my specific application that looks like it could do with some more cooling...

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by crushers

now i might be wrong in this statement, but, if i remember correctly, he also told Louis what he needed for a turbo and when Louis install the turbo and intercooler with a 200 degree drop then suddenly the turbo Dougal designed is now inefficient. WTF?

You do not remember correctly.
Louis (Lshobie) did not use a turbo I selected, he bought a generic turbo on the recommendation of his turbo shop, a turbo that you cannot even obtain compressor maps for.

Alamo industries is a place I've never heard of.

The rest of your post was best ignored.

[joshoisasleep]

OK so how much do factors other than ambient temp and turbo efficiency play? For instance, in my setup the intake/turbo cold side pipe passes VERY close to the exhaust manifold and pipe going to the hot side of the turbo. How much is this likely to heat the air AFTER it has left the turbo? The heating effect caused by this must be self propogating, since the heated input air will increase the output heat, thus heating even more... is it significant? I have heard of people insulating their pipes so I assume it must make some sort of difference.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

OK so how much do factors other than ambient temp and turbo efficiency play? For instance, in my setup the intake/turbo cold side pipe passes VERY close to the exhaust manifold and pipe going to the hot side of the turbo. How much is this likely to heat the air AFTER it has left the turbo? The heating effect caused by this must be self propogating, since the heated input air will increase the output heat, thus heating even more... is it significant? I have heard of people insulating their pipes so I assume it must make some sort of difference.

How much heat you get transferred is quite complex, depending on among other things the airflow through your engine bay and past those pipes.
I'd lag the exhaust to keep the heat away from everything else. Lagging the exhaust manifold and the transfer pipe you have will also improve turbo efficiency a little.

[lshobie]

Leave Louis out of this please - Louis doesn't get involved in both of your bitching. And leave my turbo out of it too.

Regards,

Louis

[joshoisasleep]

Lag? Is that a fancy word for a specific way to insulate it?

Originally Posted by lshobie

And leave my turbo out of it too.

lol!

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by lshobie

Leave Louis out of this please - Louis doesn't get involved in both of your *****ing. And leave my turbo out of it too.

Regards,

Louis

My apologies.



Josho, yes lag meaning to insulate. Quite different to the usual turbo-lag.
I should have said "wrap" instead of lag.

[joshoisasleep]

anyone have any idea what a good material for that would be? Tinfoil comes to mind... What is easily obtainable but won't catch fire?

[lshobie]

Wayne, like dougal said I did not use his recommendation, I trust the owner of the shop I deal with and believe that the turbo he suggested is better suited than the turbo Dougal suggested. I also think that quite honestly you are blowing this mapping thing out of porportion and it is being used as a marketing tool, I am sure that maps could be made for my turbo but I really don't give a shit - and I bet that our turbos are probably very close to the same thing if they aren't exactly the same. Guys are using used turbo's out of all kinds of cars and trucks and get great results even though they aren't "Mapped" - who gives a shit.

The "mapped" intercooler, jesus, I talked to that same guy and he said stick the biggest intercooler in the space that I could, wow. Bottom line is that the "mapped" is precise, but just a little smaller is great too - if you can fit it. It isn't perfect but it works great. Oh and my intercooler was made by a 5 year old in china and cost me 150 or something bucks for a bar and plate intercooler that is made very well and is way more efficient than a tube and fine that is the same size. How much is the mapped variety that I can't fit in my truck?? - the guy quoted me 700+ USD by the time I got it. I'd toss a few degress out the turbo ( or in) for a 500 dollar savings.

Dougal, I like your calc's and all, they are great but I don't get very technical with this stuff because I don't need to - I have other people do that work for me. You can be knowledgeable and that is great, thanks for the input and advice, but quite honestly unless you build an exact turbo for my truck - moulds and all then your advice is just theory to me as the perfect turbo doesn't exist - only the closest suited. Maybe my turbo is a few percent off what perfection is supposed to be - maybe waynes is better or worse, maybe you can produce the best turbo out of your ass - but I really don't give a shit.

Over and out dumbasses. People who often admit they are smart - most often aren't.

Both of you leave my name out of your posts and keep your comments to yourselves - I never mention your names in anything.

[joshoisasleep]

OK here's another question that I think belongs in this thread. By putting a huge rad on your truck obviously you won't get the performance benefits of an intercooler, but can you decrease your EGTs and improve engine longevity in the same way? Or will you still end up melting something with a huge rad and dialed up fuel?

People who often admit they are smart - most often aren't.

Does that work the other way around as well? I'm always apologizing for doing something dumb!

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by joshoisasleep

OK here's another question that I think belongs in this thread. By putting a huge rad on your truck obviously you won't get the performance benefits of an intercooler, but can you decrease your EGTs and improve engine longevity in the same way? Or will you still end up melting something with a huge rad and dialed up fuel?

No a bigger radiator won't compensate for an intercooler. It will help if you have a problem with coolant temperatures but it won't stop the high in cylinder temps which melt pistons and show as high EGT's.

Wayne doesn't know what mapping actually is.
It's not a process to design a turbo. It's a way of checking a chosen turbo compressor fits with an engines pressure and flow characteristics. It's called mapping because you overlay the engines airflow requirements on a turbo compressor map. I've done the garrett T25 and the GT2052 for the 3B, it's included in the FAQ.
It's pretty funny that someone who can't do this has such strong opinions on it.

Mapping as a word does not apply to intercoolers because they don't have maps.
As Awill said above it's about choosing the compromises to fit your application. A large front mount may be perfect for a road towing vehicle, but it's little use in a mud truck.

[seapotato]

Originally Posted by lshobie

Wayne, like dougal said I did not use his recommendation, I trust the owner of the shop I deal with and believe that the turbo he suggested is better suited than the turbo Dougal suggested. I also think that quite honestly you are blowing this mapping thing out of porportion and it is being used as a marketing tool, I am sure that maps could be made for my turbo but I really don't give a shit - and I bet that our turbos are probably very close to the same thing if they aren't exactly the same. Guys are using used turbo's out of all kinds of cars and trucks and get great results even though they aren't "Mapped" - who gives a shit.

The "mapped" intercooler, jesus, I talked to that same guy and he said stick the biggest intercooler in the space that I could, wow. Bottom line is that the "mapped" is precise, but just a little smaller is great too - if you can fit it. It isn't perfect but it works great. Oh and my intercooler was made by a 5 year old in china and cost me 150 or something bucks for a bar and plate intercooler that is made very well and is way more efficient than a tube and fine that is the same size. How much is the mapped variety that I can't fit in my truck?? - the guy quoted me 700+ USD by the time I got it. I'd toss a few degress out the turbo ( or in) for a 500 dollar savings.

Dougal, I like your calc's and all, they are great but I don't get very technical with this stuff because I don't need to - I have other people do that work for me. You can be knowledgeable and that is great, thanks for the input and advice, but quite honestly unless you build an exact turbo for my truck - moulds and all then your advic