mercedes VS toyota turbo diesels

[romey]

hi guys, newb here, proud owner of a jdm hiluxsurf (aka 4 runner)....for now....

been doing research on hdj81's but ran across the mercedes G 300 GD galendawagen... so i'm wondering, why wouldn't i grab a G wagon instead? say i was able to get one in, prolly from germany, in good shape...? similar price...? it's got a strong military history starting from the late 70's...military grade steel for the body, strong motor, front/rear/center lockers...just being devils advocate...i still love toyotas...i'm sure i'll still spend 80% of the time on concrete.

just wanted to get some discussion, or see if anyone's familiar with both trucks and can compare them fairly....

i'm no hardcore rock crawler or anything, just like the outdoors and would like to get into mini expeditions, camping, and maybe a little bushwacking, who knows...been getting the itch to get off the concrete for some reason...

great forum by the way!

romey

[street tractor]

No first hand info here but I have read that the diesel G is naturally aspirated and very underpowered for that particular application.

300gd vs BJ/HJ60 would probably be a more accurate comparison.

[brownbear]

I agree the BJ60 or HJ60 is a closer comparison to the G wagon. The HDJ81's are a more modern powerful design.

Mercedes diesel in those years were quite strong. Even some forums for them. Not as much north american support though.

mercedesshop.com is a good mercedes forum, like mud. here's a seller in AB http://www.redcougar.ca/mb_g-wagon.htm no idea if they are good or not.


I'd consider buying one.

[Christian]

Hey

I have driven both, I have a HJ60, used to have a Toy pickup at work, and have driven a lot of G-wagens as a sergeant.

Alot of guys here knows a lot morew about Toyotas than me, so I will concentrate on the G-wagen.

The army version is actually not just one, there are SWB and LWB, there are softtops and hardtops, and a few different engines. Interiorwise it is more like the FJ40, no carpets, no sounddeadening, very spartan, but even the dash can be hosed down.

The used ones that gets auctioned here are mostly 240GD, very low on power, no powersteering, but quite capable in terrain, just don't expect it go more than 50MPH.
It ought to be quite simple to swap in a 300TD engine though.

Body and frame are supersolid, I think the sheetmetal on the body must be twice the thickness af other cars.
I have seen a few driveline failures, but IMO that is to be expected, when used and abused by Gomer Pyle...
Factory locker front and rear is great!

Fun thing though, I met a fellow Cruiserfan once, the difference between us though were the fact that he was imensely rich. He loved my HJ60, and took it for a spin, the I took his 500GE for a spin, now THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS THE ONES IN THE ARMY! complete leather interior, all extras ect ect, and a Merc 5 liter V8
He said that the really fun thing was racing young dudes in their small celicas and stuff, and take them while towing his speedboat!

If you want more info, please wrtite, I hope this has helped a bit!

Christian

[FL cruiser]

My dad has a 2001 290 GD extended wheelbase 4dr. It is turbo. It doesn't have as much low end grunt as the HDJ81, but it takes off after 3,000 RPM. Surprising power for the small displacement of the engine. It lags on takeoff, but pulls good up hills when wound out. It will sustain 140 KPH speeds without pushing it.
He got his with an automatic and it's needed expensive transmission repairs more than once.

[romey]

wow, thanks for the replies thus far guys! yes, i'm talking about the 1990 long wheel base w463 platform that can seat 7 (2 benches in the back)...it's the same platform they still use in the newer g-wagons (speakin of which, i do valet parking once in a while for fun, and i've driven the AMG G55....holy jebus this truck is insane!! i think it's the fastest SUV out there,hmm maybe the cayenne turbo...)

anywho, i believe it is TDI and i know merc's have have a long history with the 300 motor (my aunt has an 82 300SD turbo diesel and i don't think it'll ever die) i just get the sense that these trucks are just built solid and won't break down, but i think the main issue for me is that it'll spend more time on the highway and i would have to prioritize mileage i guess, over off road capability. it is shaped like a box and not the best aerodynamics. i believe the 90's had the upgraded interior. I'm in canada and i found a company that ships them and other euro cars in and they've sold the diesel g-wagons b/w 14 and 18G $, the one that went for 18 was a 2 door, 5 spd, G280 GD if i'm not mistaken... guess i was comparing both 1990 hdj81 and G 300 GD. will i need the lockers...? prolly not but once i start hitting the dirt i'm sure i'll really find use for them (just a rookie 4x4 dude, lol)

SO, back to the HDJ81.....now, does this truck have ANY issues whatsoever? a bad head? anything? i want to make sure that this WILL be IT for the next little while as i head towards marriage and starting a family (god willing), and this'll be the minivan, camping machine! and i want my dream of hitting alaska to come true (i've already done both coasts on a pathfinder/motorcycle). anyway, i keep hearing these motors can hit 1/2 million Kms or more... so i'd like to stick with one for a long while. the fact that it's a jdm is good and i know these trucks are virtually rustfree and i'll just do my best keeping it rust free with our canadian winters (+ heater core,etc.)

i know these trucks have been in the country only for a couple years so i want to make sure they have surpassed expectations, especially for an almost 18 year old truck. I also need to decide whether i really need lockers (and i don't get why some came with just front/rear and some with front/rear AND centre diff locks, i've also seen them w/o lockers, no winch) but i just love em!

there's 2 i'm looking at (both 1990 HDJ81s, the later 91's had minor upgrades including shoulder seat belts in the back which is what i'd prefer actually), one with no lockers, 43K kms, bush bar and another (actually same colour even) 41K kms with front/rear lockers, bushbar/pto winch, and roof rack (still waiting on price)... they're both around the $19CAN range...

oh yeah, i know the big end bearings can go on these things and i hear replacing them asap for piece of mind is best. can't think of anything else right now, but i know i've got tonnes of questions right down to diesel oil brand, antigels, propane injection, intercooler....yatta ytattaa!

cheers fellas! and thanks for the links too!

[romey]

Originally Posted by brownbear

I agree the BJ60 or HJ60 is a closer comparison to the G wagon. The HDJ81's are a more modern powerful design.

Mercedes diesel in those years were quite strong. Even some forums for them. Not as much north american support though.

mercedesshop.com is a good mercedes forum, like mud. here's a seller in AB http://www.redcougar.ca/mb_g-wagon.htm no idea if they are good or not.


I'd consider buying one.

whoah! a unimog dealer! nice! i met a dude and his g/f with a gas unimog (military radio truck version) and boy was that truck insane. they emptied the back and used it as their sleeping quarters, too bad it was gas cuz they were getting killed on mileage (even had a gun rack and shovels and stuff!) actually, i hear the 300 GD motor also powers these beasts...

kewl place to start reading more. thankya!

[Ducks]

http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/for...splay.php?f=57

is a good forum for g-wagens. I've heard bad things about Red Cougar but have no first hand experience.

[Ducks]

This forum has good archives on the g-wagen but most of the knowledgable people left a couple years ago for the P3 site.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/g-class/

[Ducks]

Other good websites:

http://www.clubgwagen.com - besides tech articles this website also has classifieds.

http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/

http://www.eurotruck-importers.com/

[Ducks]

I think one of the diesels in the early 90s had a problem with the head. I can't exactly remember, maybe the om603 or the om606? You might want to search that out as well. There was only one specific diesel model that had an issue but I can't remember exactly which one it was.

[mac]

The JDM 80 series are very well built and don't have serious inherent problems. Once the rod bearings are done they are fine. The issues that I have seen though, are "low" km rigs coming in that are not as they claim- roll backs. That, and low km rigs that haven't been maintained and as a result are suffering. Some with expensive issues like warped heads and cracked blocks. So be cautious. It would be better to have higher mileage and a better maintained vehicle. For this reason it's a good idea to consider a reputable importer- someone who'll back up his product. Search here for that info.

Both of the rigs you're considering are going to be $$ to repair when things go wrong but I think the "G" will be more so. I also doubt the "G" is as well supported here by locals who actually wrench on their own trucks. Advise from guys like that can save you a heap of dough.

Lockers? Most don't need them. Even some hard core wheeler guys in the 80 section will tell you that they rarely engage them. They do help with resale though...

[brownbear]

I bet the G wagon's can get all the parts from Mercedes dealers in Canada. Where as Toyota has gotten all pissy with JDM owners.

The 80 series is going to be one of the easiest to get FJ80 parts for, used or new. For a Toyota.

Nice thing about the G's are they are LHD. If that's an issue for ya,.

[rstl99]

Hi.
I was considering a diesel G before refocusing my search last year and eventually winding up with a good solid BJ60. A 300GD was for sale locally last year, imported from Egypt by a returning diplomat, no rust, recent paint job. It had the OM617 n/a engine, and was NOT peppy in any means (though those engines will go forever if well maintained, they are among the toughest small diesel engines ever made). It also had the 4 speed manual transmission. At 90kph, the engine was revving quite high, I could never have tolerated driving at 100+kph for any time in this rig. Unlike the more swanky N-A G-wagens with 5 speed or automatics, and cushy interiors, that kind of G-wagen is probably ideal to drive on Third World roads (or off-road, obviously) at 70-80kph (then again, so is probably my BJ60!). THe truck looked VERY tough, very solid (it was the first one I looked at up close). Price appeared reasonable (low teens), but the truck turned out to be very high mileage (400,000 miles!), and a bunch of little things didn't work on it (fuel meter, other instruments, etc.). I passed on it, because I didn't want to get into a money pit...

I also considered some gas-engined N-A G models (luxurious interior, low mileage, pampered and babied by original owners), but because of the awful fuel consumption would have had to get a diesel drivetrain installed, which meant the total price would have been somewhere like $30K, to have a really nice body/mechanicals/diesel drivetrain. Met a guy in QUebec who has created a niche for himself retrofitting 5cyl turbo OM617 engines and automatics from 300D/300SD cars into them, with apparently very good results. Eventually I figured out that a diesel LC wagon was a MUCH better solution for me, at a much better cost.

At some point in my search, I corresponded with a mechanic who repairs 4x4's of many types, and he was strongly steering me towards the TLC instead of the G-wagen, for many very valid reasons (cost of parts and repairs, design, reliability, etc.).

G-wagens are great trucks, tough as nails, with some very solid engineering. But they are not perfect (neither is the LC, nor the Land-Rover, nor any other marque). In the end, I think it comes down to what kind of functionality you need, what kind of price are you willing/able to pay, what is available to you locally (vehicles and parts), how much service can you do yourself, etc. You mentioned about importing one or buying from an importer. I would give you a strong warning about importers, I have heard through many people in the g-wagen communities that there are some very shady people who bring in old worn-out specimens from Europe, spruce them up a bit, and sell them off to unsuspecting buyers. So be very careful. I've also heard not-so-good things about Red Cougar.

Hope this rambling helps you in your decision.

[rstl99]

p.s. about "military grade steel" in the g-wagens: believe me, they DO rust! Not so much the frame and chassis, which is very very strong, but the body panels are known to rust on them in some places (especially the older series from the 80's), and I've heard of people buying up supposed "mint" specimens brought over from Europe only to find out they were full of body filler! And that's not to speak about mechanical failures on high-mileage specimens needy of repairs, again often sold to unsuspecting clients. So beware, as I told you (not trying to scare you away from them...). There's a UK G-wagen club (don't have the link handy) that has some excellent g-wagen buying guide documents for you to look at. A guy I met who owned one said he went to Europe to buy one himself (not trusting importers) and drove far and wide, looked at all kinds of wrecks, before he could find one half-decent to buy (and even it wasn't perfect). You'd probably have better success, if you're hell bent on getting a G, from trying to get one from southern US, pampered and maintained by meticulous Mercedes-lover owner (they do exist). But it will likely be gas, so be prepared to spend a lot on fuel unless you consider a retrofit to a diesel, which is costly. I'm glad I went with the diesel BJ60.

[romey]

well, looks like everyone's supported my suspicions... i guess it is much safer to go from the east than the west.

what i need:
- comfy ride
- long distance hauler
- can potentially tow if needed
- turbo diesel for economic reasons
- reliability
- easy to get parts for
- some offroad duty...maybe more

what i don't necessarily need:
- winch
- lockers
- lift
- mudders

JDM VS european market in general:
- you guys have scared me enough! lol! but yeah, makes sense
- not worried too much about roll backs cuz i know for a fact they don't have to in japan cuz they really and basically do not drive and do long trips. way to expensive. i was there last summer and everywhere i looked from hiroshima to tokyo...all small cc fuel efficient cars. it is also pricey to travel by car/truck in japan. my bro in law had to pay 300 bucks just in tolls to pick his mom up from a ferry, only a 3 hour drive away. road trips isn't something they're big on.
i've checked the major auction houses in japan and 150K is considered the highest mileage you'll find in 15 year old vehicles....i saw TONNES in the low digits.. 20,30, 40,50K kms... Also, the work ethic and loyalty in japan is second to none. rolling back vehicles is a huge disgrace. (you can leave a bag on the ground and come back to it and it'll still be there.) i already have a jdm truck from a reputable dealer in BC and i'm still happy with it, parts i can get no probs too.
also, reputable jdm dealers here will have legit auction grading paperwork, with mileage confirmed..

soo, in the end, i guess the HDJ81 is really want i want. lot's goin against the G-wagon like more pricey repairs and parts and it's not necessarily the best on cruising the freeways, as most have agreed. the locking diffs is overkill for me and it's just one more thing that can go wrong.

so, a bone stock HDJ81 with no locking diffs, low mileage, is probably best for moi. if i do go ahead with one, i'll replace the big end bearings (same as rod bearings right ?), replace all fluids, use diesel fuel additives regularly....and maybe look towards and intercooler and/or Propane injection if there's some coin left

i can grab one from BC again, OR i can research the handfull of jdm importers i've found in southern ontario, both carrying HDJ81's i've mentioned before...my only saving grace is that these trucks are solid and very reliable, right?!!!

but i definitely agree with gettnig one that's been run and maintained rather than one that sat more than it ran...but then again 150k kms is still only just 10K kms/year, still low! in the end, i'm still gratefull that the jdm market is here to stay (hopefully).

baah, forget it, i'll just get a preowned rav 4 for pete's sake! loll!!! NOT!!! haahaaa.

[Christian]

Ahemmmm... not all europeans are shady...

[romey]

Originally Posted by Christian

Ahemmmm... not all europeans are shady...

lol, offcourse not!

actually, the dealer i know in toronto is pretty legit on their end, full warranties, low mileage....and full inspection of cars before they are even put on a ship... maybe i'll swing by and just have a peak at whatever g-wagon they bring in next...

[brownbear]

ah your in Toronto?

Wayne(crushers) has an import business he is moving to Southern Ontario. He has lots of vouches here for his character. Decent guy, and many are happy from buying from him.

He has verified rigs and they are all top of the line mint units. I suggest calling him. http://www.luxuryimports.ca/

[80cruiserfan]

Interesting debate. Having owned both this cars, I'll share with you what my own personal experience has been like:

1- G-wagen: rides like nothing else out there, no matter what year you buy. Older models are indeed underpowered, but they were not made for high-speed driving (ref. military origins). The upside is that you know you own a vehicle that can go virtually anywhere whether it's rock, sand, mud, steep hills, snow. etc., all with factory-installed gear (research their famous differential lockers). The downside is costly maintenance, costly maintenance, costly maintenance. Especially for a 1990 model like the one you mentioned, which is probably due for some extensive overhaul due to its age. Mine was a 1983 280GE (6 cyl, gas), which I sold after about 3 years. Yes, I got tired of those repairs.
Bottom line: a unique car that will make you very happy if you have the money and patience to properly care for it.

2- Toyota Turbo-Diesel: best thing to say about the Toyota is the reliability and reasonable maintenance costs. It does not ride as well (off-road) as the Benz, though there are plenty of aftermarket kits that will bring you close. It's off-road capability is more limited also, but that can be improved that too with ARB lockers for instance, if your car didn't come with them installed from the factory. The Toyota 4.2 liter turbo-diesel is also more powerful than the diesel G-Wagens (except of course the more recent versions, like the twin-turbo 250HP G400 CDI, and the 1994-95 G300 turbo-diesel)
I currently own a 1993 Land Cruiser VX, and I've been very happy with. I recently purchased a JDM 1997 one, for which I'm finalizing the right wheel to left wheel conversion.


Good luck!!!

PS: in my country, the Land Cruiser and the G-Wagen are the top choices for 4x4

[BlackSmoker]

Originally Posted by romey

whoah! a unimog dealer! nice! i met a dude and his g/f with a gas unimog (military radio truck version) and boy was that truck insane. they emptied the back and used it as their sleeping quarters, too bad it was gas cuz they were getting killed on mileage (even had a gun rack and shovels and stuff!) actually, i hear the 300 GD motor also powers these beasts...

kewl place to start reading more. thankya!

Mogs are great but are very rough in the suspension department and not the greatest on the highway unless high speed axles. Diesel 416 doko is the one for me.

[romey]

Originally Posted by brownbear

ah your in Toronto?

Wayne(crushers) has an import business he is moving to Southern Ontario. He has lots of vouches here for his character. Decent guy, and many are happy from buying from him.

He has verified rigs and they are all top of the line mint units. I suggest calling him. http://www.luxuryimports.ca/

yup, the big dirty smoke!

haha, funny, i already did! funny how small the world is, somehow i accidentally found a post that talked about mileage, he was on it about the hdj81, then i noticed "wayne" then i found threads that someone was leaving for ontario, so yeah, figured it was him. this is great news indeed. i wonder if he's bringing some rigs with him in january...i just noticed that there arent' too many cruisers on the site anymore....anwho, i told him i would try to hook up with him once he's settled, not too too far to visit a land cruiser guru.

we didn't talk too much about the hdj's but it was a nice and very honest chat . . . i look forward to meeting him.

btw, thank you all for the awesome feedback and wealth of knowledge....i'm hoping one day i'll be able to show pics of whatever i end up with...if all goes well... cars are overrated imho, and i can't justify paying for a brand new one, it's the risk of getting some jdm import that hopefully is good on the long haul that sorta makes things more interesting...guess i have to bank on the reliability of these rigs and the process of how they end up here...

[Tofudebeest]

Originally Posted by street tractor

No first hand info here but I have read that the diesel G is naturally aspirated and very underpowered for that particular application.

300gd vs BJ/HJ60 would probably be a more accurate comparison.

No, but you're getting there. An HJ60 or even a BJ60 would leave a 300GD in the dust. I came VERY close to buying one in the Atlanta area, but found out that it was gray-market and ran scared. Then I went and bought a gray-market HJ60 (I was dumb, but lied to).