Can someone explain to me what the F%@$ is going on w/ diesel prices?

[Stinkyfinger]

From what I've read their are three reasons why diesel cost more.
1) The increase usage of diesel has almost tripled in the last decade. From more homes using it instead of natural gas or electricity for heating because it's usually cheaper. Also because more people are buying diesel cars and trucks, over half of Europeans drive a diesel vehicle.

2)Because of tighter government pollution regulations, the refinery's are force to refine the diesel more to lower the sulfur content, so pollution devices like catalytic converters can reduce the emissions and the emissions of vehicles without converters over all are cleaner.

3) Despite reason #2 the government places a larger gas tax on diesel then regular gas because even with the refinery's efforts, it's still not considered a clean fuel source.

It sounds like the only relief is going to come from some way of producing more and cheaper bio-diesel.

[In2cruisers]

Originally Posted by cruiser_guy

True but many who use diesel in those instances pass the cost on to us consumers.

Yes...but they dont pay any where near what we pay at the pumps. For instance as of last night, the airlines (here in San Diego are paying $2.01 a gal (un- hedged) and that is a new price...went up the other day. So it seems to be a volume driven thing.

[lowenbrau]

This should be a sticky.

Diesel = heating fuel

It goes up EVERY fall because people buy a lot of it then.

All that other stuff about being screwed buy the man still applies though.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by rick_d

"As the vapors rise, they cool and condense at various levels where they are caught by a number of horizontal trays. The trays on the upper levels collect the lighter petroleum fractions such as naphtha (straight-run gasoline) and kerosene. Middle trays collect components such as light heating oil and diesel fuel. Heavy fuel oils, asphalt and pitch fractions settle on lower trays."

grabbed from an online source in 4 minute search.

Yes, that's how distilling works. Cracking, OTOH, works by cutting a heavier mollecule (such as fuel oil, which is the base for diesel fuel) into lighter mollecules such as gasoline. This, according to my source, ie the reason why diesel fule is dearer now: there is simply less of it produced nowadays. Combine that with heavier use by the military (a valid reason IMO) and you get higher prices at the pump.

Make a search on google using the terms "cracking fuel oil" and you will find this page in first place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_(chemistry) in which it is stated "Oil refinery cracking processes allow the production of "light" products such as LPG and gasoline from heavier crude oil distillation fractions such as gas oils and residues."

In case you didn't know, Gas Oil is, essentially, Diesel.

[canucksafari]

Originally Posted by lowenbrau

This should be a sticky.

Diesel = heating fuel

It goes up EVERY fall because people buy a lot of it then.

All that other stuff about being screwed buy the man still applies though.

I agree and by Jan - unless we get a real cold winter in the NA East (where the majority of the people live) - the price of diesel will be on its way down compared to gas.

Now if the Busch admin decides to invade Iran, then everyone is going to be scr@wed at the pumps no matter what you drive.

:shotts:

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by Stinkyfinger

From what I've read their are three reasons why diesel cost more.
3) Despite reason #2 the government places a larger gas tax on diesel then regular gas because even with the refinery's efforts, it's still not considered a clean fuel source.

I disagree. The main reason Diesel is taxed more is because it is mainly used by big transport trucks, which are the main cause of wear and damage to our roads and bridges.

[kabota19]

Gas $2.99 to $3.14
Diesel $3.70/gallon to $4.10/gallon
gotta love goin' in to winter


brandon

[SurfPonto]

Originally Posted by rick_d

.....

btw, diesel in Mexico @ Pemex is under $2.00 per US gallon.

Are you kidding me? That is crazy !!

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by kabota19

Gas $2.99 to $3.14
Diesel $3.70/gallon to $4.10/gallon
gotta love goin' in to winter


brandon

UNREAL! Soon you will be paying more than we do!!! (CDN$1.079/litre or approximately US$4.28 per US Gallon at today's exchange rate)

[M John Galt]

Originally Posted by kabota19

Gas $2.99 to $3.14
Diesel $3.70/gallon to $4.10/gallon
gotta love goin' in to winter brandon

That's what's we pay for diesel here in the far North.

[cruiser_guy]

Originally Posted by Stinkyfinger

Also because more people are buying diesel cars and trucks, over half of Europeans drive a diesel vehicle.

Since we all agree that more Europeans drive diesels why is diesel CHEAPER than gasoline in Europe? Following all the logic that folks are presenting, the Europeans should be paying MUCH more for diesel than gasoline since there is such demand but that is NOT the case!!

Also European diesel is a "cleaner" fuel than the diesel we get over here in North America. That's part of the reason we did not get the European diesel cars again until recently. They would not sell them here until we had ULS diesel.

"jmylie" has shown us the tax structure which is punishing diesel owners. I'm sure the oil companies are screwing us as well. Here in Guatemala almost all gas stations have diesel and diesel is significantly less than gasoline. Diesel is running at about Q23/US Gallon and gasoline is at Q27/US Gallon.

[M John Galt]

Originally Posted by cruiser_guy

Since we all agree that more Europeans drive diesels why is diesel CHEAPER than gasoline in Europe? Following all the logic that folks are presenting, the Europeans should be paying MUCH more for diesel than gasoline since there is such demand but that is NOT the case!!

Also European diesel is a "cleaner" fuel than the diesel we get over here in North America. That's part of the reason we did not get the European diesel cars again until recently. They would not sell them here until we had ULS diesel.

The ULSD we get in Canada is the same as European ULSD.
Gasoline has always been more expensive in Canada than diesel.

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by cruiser_guy

Since we all agree that more Europeans drive diesels why is diesel CHEAPER than gasoline in Europe? Following all the logic that folks are presenting, the Europeans should be paying MUCH more for diesel than gasoline since there is such demand but that is NOT the case!!

Also European diesel is a "cleaner" fuel than the diesel we get over here in North America. That's part of the reason we did not get the European diesel cars again until recently. They would not sell them here until we had ULS diesel.

"jmylie" has shown us the tax structure which is punishing diesel owners. I'm sure the oil companies are screwing us as well. Here in Guatemala almost all gas stations have diesel and diesel is significantly less than gasoline. Diesel is running at about Q23/US Gallon and gasoline is at Q27/US Gallon.

Contrary to what you may think, Diesel is NOT cheaper in Europe. Granted, compared to gas it is, as gas is heavily taxed there. It's a different tax structure, as simple as that. Diesel being 'utilitarian' is looked upon as a working vehicles's fuel. Gasoline OTOH is looked upon as a 'luxury' fuel.

In North America, Gasoline is considered a necessity in th economy of the country. Vast distances require the use of vehicles and cars were pretty much always considered a necessity so taxes were never as high and more cloisely correlated to the real cost of infrastructure (although in Québec, only 15% of our road taxes actually go into the road system, but that's another issue!!!)

In Europe on the other hand gasoline powered cars were considered luxury items and the tax structure was setup accordingly. As a practical example of this cultural difference, cars were taxed based on the power output of their engines.

In any case I agree with you in principle. Prices are largely set by each country's tax structure. As a result, Diesel fuel appears overly taxed in North America (but don't forget a greater and greater proportion of its base is divereted for gasloine production) and Gasoline is overly taxed in Europe (based on cultural traditions).

Following the prices in the US recently posted here, no wonder Americans don't want diesels. They'd be foolish to, considering the now 33% premium over regular gasoline, at that price a gas engine is cheaper to run, never mind the cost premium of a diesel engine!

[83bj60]

Originally Posted by cruiser_guy

Here in Guatemala almost all gas stations have diesel and diesel is significantly less than gasoline. Diesel is running at about Q23/US Gallon and gasoline is at Q27/US Gallon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys don't need fuel (diesel) oil to heat your house, do you? That would explain the price difference. In the summer months here diesel is usually much closer to gas if not a bit cheaper.

[watrob]

Diesel has always been more expensive than reg gas in Australia (about 50cents a gallon more). Our petrol prices on Tuesday & Wed, are about 40-50 cents a gallon cheaper then it goes up on Thurs through to Mon.

The Gov't is having an enquiry into it at the moment to find out why this happens but the petrol companies have been doing it for 20 years. The funny thing is the diesel price does not go up and down in price like reg petrol but since the enquiry has started diesel has gone up another 40 cents a gallon.

Everyone say's this is happening because diesel pricing is not part of the enquiry and the petrol companies are cashing in, us poor dumb suckers buying diesel are probably paying the petrol companies lawyers fees.

I mean how can petrol change price on the same day of the week, every week, smacks of collusion between petrol companies dosen't it.

I say don't worry, they will have there day just like the cigarette companies, we either have to find another type of fuel or just give up driving.

[83bj60]

The advantage with diesel is the option of using vegetable oil and waste oil. Probably the biggest advantage of this fuel to me, suits my 'alternativeness' just fine. Petroleum can become scarce, but there will always be french fries and fried chicken around.

Now where the heck do I buy Methanol in Québec!!! It's been the one stumbling block to my Biodiesel project...

[cruiser_guy]

Originally Posted by 83bj60

Contrary to what you may think, Diesel is NOT cheaper in Europe. Granted, compared to gas it is, as gas is heavily taxed there. It's a different tax structure, as simple as that. Diesel being 'utilitarian' is looked upon as a working vehicles's fuel. Gasoline OTOH is looked upon as a 'luxury' fuel.

All fuel is more expensive in Europe but the differences between the two is what I am talking about. Frankly, I agree that diesel is a working vehicles fuel and gasoline is a "luxury" fuel!

Originally Posted by 83bj60

In North America, Gasoline is considered a necessity in th economy of the country. Vast distances require the use of vehicles and cars were pretty much always considered a necessity so taxes were never as high and more cloisely correlated to the real cost of infrastructure (although in Québec, only 15% of our road taxes actually go into the road system, but that's another issue!!!)

In North America diesel is ESSENTIAL to the economy! Without it there would be NO manufacturing, NO logging, NO farming etc. etc. With our vast distances we COULD NOT do without the transportation infrastructure. In Europe many trains are electric powered, that's not an option here with our distances. We won't even begin to talk about road taxes!! I doubt Quebec is the only province putting road taxes into general revenue.

Originally Posted by 83bj60

In Europe on the other hand gasoline powered cars were considered luxury items and the tax structure was setup accordingly. As a practical example of this cultural difference, cars were taxed based on the power output of their engines.

Frankly, I agree with the European tax structure on vehicles! Folks that drive their F350 to their office job from their home in the suburbs are using their vehicle as a luxury item and should be taxed accordingly! In Europe most folks use the public transit for going to work and they don't travel for 50 or more miles each way, they move closer to work.

Originally Posted by 83bj60

In any case I agree with you in principle. Prices are largely set by each country's tax structure. As a result, Diesel fuel appears overly taxed in North America (but don't forget a greater and greater proportion of its base is divereted for gasloine production) and Gasoline is overly taxed in Europe (based on cultural traditions).

Based on my comments above if folks would use energy wisely we wouldn't need so much gasoline.

Originally Posted by 83bj60

Following the prices in the US recently posted here, no wonder Americans don't want diesels. They'd be foolish to, considering the now 33% premium over regular gasoline, at that price a gas engine is cheaper to run, never mind the cost premium of a diesel engine!

It's not a 33% premium for diesel that would be equivalent to $3/gallon for gas and $4/gallon for diesel. I haven't seen that much inequity yet, usually it's not worse than premium gas. If that's the case though I'll get myself a long range tank for my trip up to Canada and fuel up in Mexico and hopefully that will get me 1/2 way home for a reasonable price!! 50 gallons should get me 1250 miles into the US/Canada! When I head back south I'll push the truck into Mexico if necessary!!

Anyone have drawings for a '60 series long range tank??

Heating our home??? Why would we do that?? Our low here in Guatemala City might be 55F!

[83bj60]

55F... Cool... Or should I say, that's HOT, Man I've been heating the house for the past few weeks now... Electric, as we produce it and it's actually cheaper than oil (no money into some belligerent middle east country, the profit gets back directly into the province's coffers)

[cruiser_guy]

Originally Posted by 83bj60

55F... Cool... Or should I say, that's HOT, Man

Not really hot. That translates out to between 10 and 15C. Our max is only about 80F or 25C. Really very pleasant. Last winter when I was in Cranbrook, B.C. and it got to -30C, now that was too cold for me. The 115F the we see passing through Phoenix, AZ, that is too hot for me!

In B.C. the natural gas or electric is better than oil and most folks use the natural gas or electric. Really very few oil heated homes now. Another reason why I don't really believe all the hype about more demand in the winter. Folks could not afford to heat with oil any more.

[Tapage]

Interesting thread .. I'm not clear and maybe someone here can answer me. I'm believe that Diesel cost more to produce than gass that's right ( if can be answered as plain as I ask )

Yesterday here we get the nice notice that the prices in all gass and diesel gonna raise today .. here usually the Diesel it's cheaper than gasser for 50 cents .. aprox.

Now we seen how the Diesel goes up from 2.75 ( yesterday price ) to 2.90 today ( in the cheaper gas stations ) and the same range for 91 and 95 oct gas.

We eng today with Diesel at 2.90 and 95 oct in 3.20 aprox .. I remember when I bought my Tencha ( my first Diesel ) the diesel cost 1.10 USD ( US gal ) and the gas around 2.00 - 2.10 USD ..

I was in Europe last July and the diferences between diesel and gas was a few cents ... with the dolar goues down .. I thought I wil buy a skate .

[canucksafari]

I think this will help answer some of the questions:
"Diesel Fuel Prices Prices: What Consumers Should Know"
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/bro...sel/index.html

But ya I know it is more fun to argue over them.

[dweisger]

Diesel is definitely cheaper to refine per litre than Gasoline. But in demand with US/Can markets, gasoline is still king and therefore more competitive pricing than compared to diesel. The US has significant extra set of taxes on diesel verses gasoline.There is no conspiracy to it, just math and economics.

[brownbear]

Canadians are kinda lucky right now. With our high dollar we are kinda sheltered from the record highs in the price per drum of crude. If our dollar keeps rising fuel will get cheaper.....

[GARYSTIGER955i]

Just to add to your debate, the uk price of fuels seems to be the same ie diesel more expensive than unleaded super unleaded and gas, heres a quick guide if you click on the link ... http://www.petrolprices.com/ http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/...ce-report.html and at this moment our local garage price for derv is £1.03 per litre, and yes there are more diesel vehicles on the road.. i remember back in the early eightys when there were'nt many private diesel cars about and the price of derv was half the price of petrol. But put the blame for the price of the barrel on robbing goverments and the war in the middle east. Watch LPG prices shoot up when all cars are running on lpg only ? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/...sis/933648.stm