Another cold start issue

Fantom · 03-01-07, 10:47 PM

Hi everyone,
I always keep reading this section and trying to give any advice when I can, this time I could use a hand.

So it's a 3B, has cold starting issues, and I mean +2C and lower. It is a super glow system and here's what I've done:
Changed the glow plugs (with Toy new), rebuilt injectors, recent fuel filter, properly bled fuel lines, changed out Glow timer (with used but working one).
The water temp sensor has impedance (can't remember what reading).
The plugs get 8.5V (or so) for the first bit then 4.7V (or so) for a lot longer, and continues after the vehicle is started.
The issue is that it runs very rough for the first little while, as if not all the cylinders were firing. After it heats up it's fine.
I know I could do a Wilson switch, but I just bought new plugs recently and really don't feel like buying another set, so any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
I did a search on here but have not been able to find someone with the exact same problem, or I'm just blind.

Ron R · 03-02-07, 01:19 AM

My first impression is an airleak.
What is the color of the exhaustgasses during this rough running?
If they look normal I would go for an airleak somewere (returnline?).
If they look grey-ish to white I would check the glowplugs one by one for a short or a very high resistance, maybe one of them got damaged or was not good when delivered.

Squash · 03-02-07, 06:57 AM

In cold conditions all/most diesel engines will stutter till they warm up.

Good glow plugs start ours till -25 C for colder temps either inline(rad hose heater or block heaters installed via the frost plug on the engine block.

Fuel grade is another item not to mention good maintenance.

check my earlier post for some maint. tips

Mike

btw we have some diesel units which will always start even at -30 below without being plugged in.

For emergency cold engine situations pour hot water over your engine.

JohnnyBoy · 03-02-07, 07:41 AM

try bypassing the the glow system with some wire or booster cables. and see if it just needs more glow time.

Fantom · 03-02-07, 08:14 PM

Thanks for the advice guys.
Ron R - the exhaust during start up in above 0C temps is usually not really visible, in below 0C it comes out a bit black. I have checked all the plugs, which are new from Toyota, and they all read the same impedance. This would indicate that the fuel is getting there so I doubt an air leak is present but I have been wrong before - rarely

Squash - I know that diesels don't like the cold too much, but we are talking about +2C and I'm having issues. I was in Edmonton during the winter, with a lower rad hose heater and plugged in, when the temps dropped to -20C I was again having issues. As for fuel, I have tried different stations, tried the low sulfur, tried the other supposedly better fuels from all the different stations and no difference.
JohnnyBoy - Since it is a 2 stage glow system I will have to find a safe way to bypass the system without burning out the plugs.
I can try putting toggle switches on the relays so I control the timing. What do you think?

Thanks

Greg_B · 03-02-07, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantom

JohnnyBoy - Since it is a 2 stage glow system I will have to find a safe way to bypass the system without burning out the plugs.
I can try putting toggle switches on the relays so I control the timing. What do you think?Thanks

It is very unlikely you would burn out the plugs in short order by installing the Wilson switch and leaving the ones you have in. The person the switch is named ran his plugs for years after doing this mod. Just leave the resistor in (which is the connection to the busbar). It simply means the plugs will get hotter faster: Remember...you are the one controlling the juice.

Just do it...

hth's

gb

Fantom · 03-02-07, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg_B

It is very unlikely you would burn out the plugs in short order by installing the Wilson switch and leaving the ones you have in. The person the switch is named ran his plugs for years after doing this mod. Just leave the resistor in (which is the connection to the busbar). It simply means the plugs will get hotter faster: Remember...you are the one controlling the juice.

Just do it...

hth's

gb

Thanks Greg,
Just re-read the Wilson switch post you put up recently, and saw that the "afterglow" can still be in the picture. I guess it's going to be done.
I'm just wondering if there is something else wrong in the starting system that is causing these issues.

M John Galt · 03-02-07, 08:59 PM

A block heater or rad hose heater can 'fool' the temperature sensor into turning off the glow system. You can rewire all sorts of controls modifications with cool switch names like "Wilson", or simply unplug the temperature sensor.

Fantom · 03-02-07, 09:02 PM

Yes but the truck is sitting in +2C weather, with the rad hose heater unplugged and still starting like sh!t . If you unplug the temp sensor, then the timer does not get any reference for how long it is supposed to stay on, am I correct?

Greg_B · 03-02-07, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantom

Thanks Greg,
Just re-read the Wilson switch post you put up recently, and saw that the "afterglow" can still be in the picture. I guess it's going to be done.
I'm just wondering if there is something else wrong in the starting system that is causing these issues.

Why would you want the afterglow? The best, simplist, and most basic glow system was in the early Cruisers before they went super duper high-low glow. Push a switch on the dash and the plugs got current: Sweet.

That imo is what you want to replicate, and that is what the mod in effect does. You become the afterglow, and take one more thing that can screw up out of the picture.

Yes, unplugging the sensor is a great way to trouble shoot and see if the system is working, however if you leave it unplugged you are going to be running the full pull every time...even when not needed. Why stress the system...when your truck becomes soooo much more cool by having a Wilson switch installed!

You're right M John Galt...Damn functionallity all to hell...cools names are where is it!

BTW, thanks for all your information in this forum on Canola in diesel...gonna try that one day soon.

hth's

gb

Fantom · 03-02-07, 09:44 PM

Thanks again guys. I should have time after the weekend to wire the switch in and give it a shot.

M John Galt · 03-02-07, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg_B

if you leave it unplugged you are going to be running the full pull every time...even when not needed. gb

Not true. That's speaking from personal belief not experience. If one does not pause in the 'on' position, then the glow system does not energize. Pause in the "on" position and use the full 14 sec of the timer or start anytime sooner with a twist of the key. The temp sensor is unplugged for the part of the year I use the engine heater. We call it 'winter' in the north, lasts from Haloween to Easter. Easy, simple, effective.

Ron R · 03-03-07, 01:32 AM

Fantom.
I still think it's an air-issue. Can't you (temporally) put a piece of clear hose in the fuel lines close to the injector-pump? Have it there in a (vertical) loop so eventual air will collect in the top of the loop and you can easily see it. Less hassle than wiring in the wilson switch and at least you're sure about this possibility.

Diescipel · 03-03-07, 08:36 AM

One more cosideration I haven't seen addressed: when was your last compression test and what were the results? Maybe you are down on a couple cylinders when cold. Just a thought.

B

Greg_B · 03-03-07, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M John Galt

If one does not pause in the 'on' position, then the glow system does not energize. Pause in the "on" position and use the full 14 sec of the timer or start anytime sooner with a twist of the key.

I am happy this system works for you and suits your needs.

Few a sake of a little time wiring, I prefer the simplicity and control of a push button on the dash, which allows me to feather the glow after the truck is running, and be done with both sides of the superduper high-low superglow system.

Easier, simpler, more effective.

gb

M John Galt · 03-03-07, 11:02 AM

...and I'm equally happy that the switch option works for you. Both options have advantages and disadvantages. A wise operator has to consider all the options and decide what's best for their specific application. Owning a Cruiser is NOT a case of "Monkey See, Monkey Do", it's a thinking person's vehicle

brownbear · 03-03-07, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg_B

I am happy this system works for you and suits your needs.

Few a sake of a little time wiring, I prefer the simplicity and control of a push button on the dash, which allows me to feather the glow after the truck is running, and be done with both sides of the superduper high-low superglow system.

Easier, simpler, more effective.

gb

Well this monkey found the description easy to follow and worth while mod.

Yah its just a manual glow switch setup. But this mod is nice cause it used thew existing wires.

I think if your timer is working, and you have no problems. Just leave it be.

brownbear · 03-03-07, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diescipel

One more cosideration I haven't seen addressed: when was your last compression test and what were the results? Maybe you are down on a couple cylinders when cold. Just a thought.

B

I agree with this.

I would get the comp test carried out. Engines with low compression are hard to start. All the glow in the world isn't going to make it start better.

Sounds like you have been thru most of the checks so far.

Also you may want to ensure the edic arms goes into the over injection spot and not just "run".

kup99 · 03-04-07, 07:25 PM

I was told that my injector pump had bad seals and were shirinking in the colder weather... I was also told that with a rebuild (seals replaced) would solve the problem... also told that I wouldn't notice any spill because it would head back to the tank (gravity).. anyway.. just an idea... all the best..

Fantom · 03-05-07, 12:15 AM

Hi guys,
Wow I get busy for a day and look at the all the new ideas. Thanks,
So here it goes, I tried (for the hell of it and since it was a quick test) to unplug the water temp sensor before starting. Now the weather is not bad here, +5C, and I still had issues, the glow time for the primary relay was a bit longer then usual but nothing special. When I turned over the engine it had little issues with running smooth. I have to be honest, I have not done a compression check. For this I will have to either go to a mechanic or just buy the tester myself since I don't have one. I have been meaning to do that. I did notice that my priming pump is wet, there seems to be fuel leaking through that seal, but this is new and the problem has been evident since day 1 after I bought the truck. I am going to replace the fuel hose with something that will allow me to see the fuel level and see if there is an air/fuel leak that is actually causing this. Although in more cold environments (-10C and below) I have noticed that there is a significant amount of black smoke at start up, so fuel delivery does not seem to be the problem. Regardless I will check and let you know what happens.
As for rebuilding the injector pump, I will leave that option as a last resort if all else fails, but thanks for the suggestions guys.