Need help with 13B-T

[rutbeer]

Try this

[danhr]

redstang410:

Boost signal (air pipe from turbo) is reaching it without any restriction.

If I blow air into it, is there any physical movement that I would see (via compressed air pump)? What should I feel if I blow air via mouth (ristricted like a baloon? or smimilar to waste gate actuator?)



rutbeer:

By all time suction I mean when engine is started, one can feel the suction from nozzel #1 which has no connection.

There is a steel pipe (nozzel) near this relay with no connection as well. Maybe something from relay goes there?

I am having trouble as sometimes the VSV gets activated half way (Boost guage shows 20 vaccum). If I throttle, vaccum goes even further and engine makes black smoke. If I remove the VSV pipe or turn off and again start the motor then everything returns to normal.

I am assuming wrong pipe config.

[rutbeer]

Yes, all three ports should be connected. The one that points toward the steel pipe at the back of the block, should be connected together. The other two ports point upwards towards the intake manifold. One of them runs straight to the shutter pot and the other runs into the vacuum network if I remember right. Sounds like maybe you have something connected to the boost compensator incorrectly.

Port 1 goes to shutter pot
Port 2 goes to crossover pipe
Port 3 goes to boost compensator at port 4
Port 5 goes to network or shutter.....need to look
Port 6 goes to network or shutter....need to look
Port 7 goes to metal pipe at back of engine port 8

[danhr]

rutbeer:

See pic 1 RELAY.jpg . This is the current config.

When the suction pipe from Alternator is connected to Port C and engine is running, Port A is also in suction.

If I swap the piping (A and C) same result. i.e. A and C are linked.

Port B is activated when I turn off the motor.


(Currently) Pipe from the boost compensator goes to the turbo pipe. i.e. pipe goes from below the turbo pipe joint, above the intake mainfold to boost compensator.


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Pic 2 Non mod.jpg is the cap found behind the alternator (non modified). In on of my posts I said I had problem with clutch being hard. Notice the tiny hole. I increased this hole size and !

Pic 3 mod installed.jpg is the one I increased the hole size. Clutch is smooth to operate as it should be.

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redstang410:

If I blow air to compensator via mouth, it feels like a dead end, like its blocked. Nothing happens. Blowing through air compressor at 1bar, nothing happens.

[rutbeer]

That valve looks different than either of mine. It's possible your entire system has been reworked, in which case, it will be very hard to help.
In my situation, the "metal pipe" is connected to alt (suction) which goes to port B on your diagram. And the port A is connected to the stop shutter. B will be a loop that feeds over to the A/c kick up valve, etc. It's possible that A and B will be reversed in yours, and the only way to tell is to test it with 12v on and off to see which ports are active in the new configuration.
You are sort of accomplishing the same thing though....you just need to pipe in the blank port A into the overall vacuum loop for the rest of the accessories (or cap it off). In fact, your configuration more closely matches that which is in the manual.

[redstang410]

The line to the boost compensator should be a dead end. In other words, you can blow air into it, but not through it. It should use the air pressure to move a diaphragm which should enrich your fuel under boost.

If air doesnt flow through, then we've checked that the diaphragm is not broken, But it doesn't tell us if its stuck.
I really don't know how to check a working boost compensator as my engine doesn't use one. But i figure it might be possible to check it with the engine running at idle and sending pressure to the line. You should hear and feel a change in engine rpm or sound. It should rev up or smoke black.
I'm guessing this might work, but you should consult someone else before trying and possibly messing something up though.

hope this helps.

[danhr]

rutbeer:

Changing the current config results in either motor not to start or not to shutdown.

If I swap Port B and C, engine will not shutdown.
If I connect pipe from alternator to Port A while VSV connected to port B, engine will not shutdown.

I will remove the relay and then test it.

Tell me, the metal pipe at the back, what is it connected to? If I connect it to port A, then engine will not start. If I supply it air from turbo then engine makes smoke and does 'missing'. It works fine when not connected.


redstang410:

Well, I started the motor and supplied 1bar (14PSI) to the boost compensator. Nothing happens, no change in engine sound nor any smoke is produced.

Maybe there is some setting in boost compensator to make it work ?

[rutbeer]

Have you downloaded the manual for this engine yet?
It's available on birfield.com
There is a fair amount of info on the boost compensator in there....

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by danhr

Maybe there is some setting in boost compensator to make it work ?

maybe the boost compensator is stuck ..

[danhr]

FU-96 FUEL SYSTEM -Injection Pump

Says about adjustment of boost compensator. Now in what direction to turn the guide bushing?

More advanced level is FU-55. Says how to check the boost compensator. But for it, I have to remove the whole pump and boost compensator. It says to apply pressure to boost compensator and see the rod movement. Not within range, replace.

This I cannot do myself. And again, comes to Fuel Pump after all this. If I am going to mess with fuel pump, I would change plungers and nozzels as well. Further more if it is the boost compensator, I would have to replace the whole pump as getting a single unit would be impossible. :(

[redstang410]

There is something wrong with the boost compensator. it should cause some change when applying 14psi to it. It should at least rev up when pressure is applied.
You can atempt to unstick it, Take it to a shop to have it done, Or just not use it and turn the pump setting up to compensate.
Tha latter should only be done with a pyrometer to guage the egt temps. Another by product is black smoke off idle acceleration or at least until the turbo builds boost.
The smoke won't hurt anything in the engine at low load, but the tree huggers might frown upon the extra pollution. Its Up to you.

Good Luck.

[Tapage]

One thing not match here .. if you have no enought fuel in your engine how can you get 14 PSI .. ?

[danhr]

redstang410:
I would discuss this with pump repair guy and see what comes up.


Tapage:

14 PSI comes when I remove the hose to waste gate actuator. The waste gate Actuator actually restricts the turbo from spining too fast and thus reducing/maintaning the PSI. Removing the waste gate actuator pipe directs the turbo to generate the max psi it can (depends on the smoke pressure).

Actuator is adjusted so that it matches the amount of fuel injected. Its not merely a diaphram with a rod. It is well calibrated.
Imagine a paper fan attched to a stick with a pin. If you blow air directly onto fan (centered), the fan would spin very fast. If you blow from side (left or right), the spin would vary (slower spin). Actuator does exactly the same thing by directing the smoke flow. Also, actuator is calibrated to move the rod at different PSI by opening and shutting (acutally changing angles) of the wastegate (the door from where smoke comes).

A CT26 turbo can generate 26PSI. Thats a lab test by Toyota (i was told by someone). And I bet for a 13BT in good condition, CT26 turbo and its waste gate actuator pipe removed can generate 20 psi.


Coming back to the topic, with actuator pipe attached it generates 4psi (idle) and 6 psi (when in motion). It should have been 8psi (idle) and 10-12 (motion). There is not enough smoke pressure coming to spin the turbo fast enough.

Furthermore, even at 14 psi I do not feel performance gain. That means not enough fuel is being injected to burn all that air.

Infact I removed the complete actuator assembly and tied the gate (to direct the smoke so that turbo does not spin) and I could barely feel performance drop (i.e. running at 0psi). Noticeable thing was that lot of black smoke was produced.

[Tapage]

The issue is not the wastegate .. or at least I'm not talking about the wastegate operation ( I know how it function and the CT26 capabilities )

I justn talking the pressure in the intake it's a relation from fuel, rpm and wastegate settings ..

If you don't have enought fuel or rpm you can't reach 14 PSI no matter what tight or close ( by disconecting hoses ) you have ..

[danhr]

rutbeer:

I am trying to sort out the vaccum piping. I need your help. Asking small question in this thread might not be a good idea so can I PM?

Tell me, the 'metal pipe' goes all the way and comes on top (near to) power steering pump? Is it connected to anything on its way? I am asking this because I connected this pipe to a T. The T was connected to Alternator and AC pipe. When in such configuration, the motor wont start as it remain in vaccum. I explain in detail:


The metal pipe was connected to the relay (from behind, I am copying your config). From relay one pipe is connected to VSV and other goes to a T. From this T one goes to AC relay and other to two relays located on top of break booster (on the body). I do not know their purpose and cannot trace their connections.

With this config firt time motor starts. The second time it does not start and I have noticed that vaccum remains in piping. I am assuming that this metal pipe is connected to something that is causing the trouble.

BTW I got a relay identical to yours. I am not able to post pics as this forum (i do not know why) does not allow me.

[rutbeer]

I wired mine direct from the vacuum pump to the metal pipe that wraps the engine. From there, I went from metal pipe to the horizontal pipe on my valve. The Middle "nipple" goes to the vacuum shutter and the other nipple goes to the manifold crossover pipe.

You can look at the picture in my thread in my sig line. I had to wire mine up this way, because as you said, the pipes remain in vacuum.
Mine does not release the vaccum from shut down until you turn the key back "on". The shutter snaps open and you are ready to start again. If there is no "vent" you will not be able to start up again because the shutter will still be closed. I chose to vent mine to the crossover pipe, but you can vent to atmosphere with a filter just the same. Venting to the "loop" allows you not to suck water or dirt in though.
I have not hooked my a/c up, but it's basically the same setup. The pipe that goes to the manifold is merely diverted to the a/c switch first. If the engine shuts down, the a/c is starved first/simultaneously.

[danhr]

Let me get this right, one pipe from the 'relay' goes to crossover. This same pipe should be connected to a T and from there goes to AC relay?

I am getting closer as the current setup now (working good) is:

Alternator is attached to a T. One Pipe from alternator goes to metal pipe. From metal pipe it goes to relay (from the back). The middle nozzle of relay goes to VSV. The outer nozzle goes to vertical pipe that run on top of engine. This pipe serves as vent. I have attached this pipe to air cleaner head (thus supplying limited air with lower pressure as compared to crossover pipe).

The other pipe from alternator T goes to AC relay.

The beauty with the current setup is that it holds the VSV until the switch is back ON. Though after a minute the VSV lowers down (I have to check for leakes).

[rutbeer]

Sounds right to me.
The crossover pipe was part of the original setup, but slightly different than the way I have it run. I'll probably set mine up closer to factory once I get a boost gauge and wire in the a/c switch.

[danhr]

You saying that crossover pipe (the pipe on which turbo is written and from the middle of which a pipe comes out and goes to turbo green light relay) should be attached to the nozzel? Thats the factory setup?

If so then I would have to get a T for it. Also, i see a problem in that setup since with high psi would it not damage the relay? Furthermore, my turbo throws small amount of oil in the air that it blows. Though its very little amount but it did damage the actuator once (filled it up with oil).

rutbeer, thank you very much. Without you there was no way I could get things right.

Now all I have to do is mess with fuel pump (boost compensator).

Also, what is the purpose of the two relays attached to the body on top of the break booster? See pic 1.
Pic 2 is the relay I am using as replacement for the 'vsv relay'.

[rutbeer]

It's not really a high pressure line, since the vacuum is sucking it through until the valve switches....but you are correct about the oil being there. That's how both of my engines came pre-plumbed though. However, I have yet to find a vacuum diagram in the manual that will back this up.

[danhr]

Ok back to the main topic. I have increased fuel. Now I see black (dark brown) smoke with full throttle. Not even a slight performance gain is observed nor any psi gain.

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by danhr

Ok back to the main topic. I have increased fuel. Now I see black (dark brown) smoke with full throttle. Not even a slight performance gain is observed nor any psi gain.

How much boost you have .. ? how mcuh EGT's ? in all speeds ?

Boost it's a relation from diesel, air and load ..

[oldblue]

Can you give me the part number of the replacement SVS as in the last photo, and which tube goes to the vacumn.

Thanks.

[danhr]

Tapage:

Well, I have set the boost to 12PSI at full throttle (which I get in 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th gears). In first and neutral I get about 6-7PSI. Absolutley no performance gain is seen. Engine runs cold as it were (I do not have a pyro though).


oldblue:

Part number of what? What is SVS?

[Tapage]

Originally Posted by danhr

Tapage:

Well, I have set the boost to 12PSI at full throttle (which I get in 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th gears). In first and neutral I get about 6-7PSI. Absolutley no performance gain is seen. Engine runs cold as it were (I do not have a pyro though).

Get your Pyro .. turn up your diesel and regulate your wastegate to keep the boost at the same press .. keep your EGT under 1200 and let us know ..

[oldblue]

Sorry, should have read VSV Relay.

[danhr]

Tapage:
Pyros require alteration to exhaust manifold, which I do not want to do. I can try increasing the fuel (if it can be increased further).


Oldblue:

The pipe configuration is well described in former posts by rutbeer. If I remember correct, the nozzle with filter (in the pic) is going to get suction from alternator (metal pipe connects to it). Middle nozzle to VSV (engine shutter). Pipe to the left most needs free air.

I do not remember the part number. Use the pic to describe it to a tech. Any relay with similar working will do the job (it has to be 24V).

[Tapage]

I would not increase the fuel with out a Pyro .. at the end it's only a little hole in the exhaust manifold.