[PurpleFJ62]

I just put that drawing as my desktop background! Way cool man. Are you going to manufacture this adapter your self or take it to a company and have it done? If you were out sourcing it you would probally need like 10 people of so to purchase one up front, I am shure people would be willing to do so.

[theSherpa]

twins

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

Nice solid modeling. What is the tranny you have it attached to?

that is awesome. I want to get my a440f out on the floor , measure it up, and send you guys some information.

great job.

What you see in that picture is most of an Isuzu MSA gearbox, with some Austin Allegro gearbox parts welded into the top (I kid you not).
It works, but it ain't anywhere near as pretty in real life as the drawing.
The back end of the Isuzu box has been removed and replaced with a 3" thick alloy spacer and the back section of a rover LT77 gearbox. That allows it to bolt right up to a landrover LT230 transfercase.
I plan to design a better single piece gearbox-LT230 adaptor and put up drawings for other rover owners in search of a better gearbox.

Once I have the model complete, it'll then be much easier for anyone to use it for designing engine mounts and gearbox adaptors. But I'm not there yet. There's no flywheel or clutch in there at the moment.

[68raisin]

Looks fantastic Dougal!! I threaten to do a solid model of all my projects but that just aint gonna happen. Glad somebody is doing it! I would be intereted in converting from isuzu to a440 also.

If I did do the model I would have skimped and only done the neccesary surfaces because I'm "lazy".

chad

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 68raisin

I threaten to do a solid model of all my projects but that just aint gonna happen. Glad somebody is doing it! I would be intereted in converting from isuzu to a440 also.

If I did do the model I would have skimped and only done the neccesary surfaces because I'm "lazy".

chad

How about doing us a toyota box model then? Even just the necessary surfaces would do.

[RHINO]

whats going on with the double booster piggyback turbo?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by RHINO

whats going on with the double booster piggyback turbo?

The usual thing that happens with two turbos.
More boost, wider boost range.
Hopefully.

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dougal

What you see in that picture is most of an Isuzu MSA gearbox, with some Austin Allegro gearbox parts welded into the top (I kid you not).
It works, but it ain't anywhere near as pretty in real life as the drawing.
The back end of the Isuzu box has been removed and replaced with a 3" thick alloy spacer and the back section of a rover LT77 gearbox. That allows it to bolt right up to a landrover LT230 transfercase.
I plan to design a better single piece gearbox-LT230 adaptor and put up drawings for other rover owners in search of a better gearbox.

Once I have the model complete, it'll then be much easier for anyone to use it for designing engine mounts and gearbox adaptors. But I'm not there yet. There's no flywheel or clutch in there at the moment.

Dougal: Could you elaborate more on your MSA tranny mods. I have one of those that I would consider using if I could solve the shifter and T-case adapter problems. Do you have any pics?

[euclid]

Originally Posted by 68raisin

I would be intereted in converting from isuzu to a440 also.
chad

Put me on that list, too!

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

Dougal: Could you elaborate more on your MSA tranny mods. I have one of those that I would consider using if I could solve the shifter and T-case adapter problems. Do you have any pics?

Don't hack your gearbox up like mine was. Your best option is to get a cable change gearlever (from any fwd manual car) and adapt it to the levers coming out the top of the box.

The back end of the gearbox is simply unbolted and the adaptor of your design bolted in place. I have the bolt pattern locked down in that CAD model.
You also need to make up an adaptor shaft to mate into your transfer case, then you're all go.

My transfer case is a landrover LT230.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by PurpleFJ62

I just put that drawing as my desktop background! Way cool man. Are you going to manufacture this adapter your self or take it to a company and have it done? If you were out sourcing it you would probally need like 10 people of so to purchase one up front, I am shure people would be willing to do so.

I have no need for a toyota gearbox so I won't be making one myself.
But I'm happy to help with the design.

[RHINO]

Originally Posted by euclid

Put me on that list, too!

buy the dieselswapper kit, then marks A440 to SBC and your done, prolly wont need to modify driveshafts.

[rtarh2o]

I asked previously about using the diesel swapper adapter along with the Marks a440 to sbc. I was told it couldn't be done because they were both plates, I assume it would space it too much. Is this correct or do you think they would work together? That would be great, I assume I could swap out my A343? in my 97 to an A440 and make it much better, I am really worried about getting a 700r4 to look stock in the stock shifter location.
Rusty
97 FZJ80
78 FJ40

[RHINO]

i dont know why it wont work, and the shifter would be the least of my concern as its adjustable in herd mount or cable.

[rtarh2o]

I don't fully understand how they work, but I think they are both spacers. I think the Marks uses a crankshaft extension as well? It seems like 2 spacers would make the distance too much? I would love it if I could use the A440, anyone else have any input on this?
Thanks - Rusty
97 FZJ80

[euclid]

I'm going to begin parting out a 62 in a few weeks. If a A440 belhousing would help someone figgure the 4BD1T to A440 swap out I'll send it at my cost on permanent loan. PM me. Heck, I could even see about sending the whole tranny, it's dead.

[68raisin]

Dougal-I don't have a toyota gear box yet for any working surfaces.

Euclid-If I had an isuzu here I'd take your a440 and make it work.

I still can't keep all this swap info straight. Which isuzu bellhousing bolts to a440 via the a450 connection? Is that connection on the 4HE model only?

I suppose I should reread this thread and write stuff down!

Keep it up all, Chad

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 68raisin

Dougal-I don't have a toyota gear box yet for any working surfaces.

Euclid-If I had an isuzu here I'd take your a440 and make it work.

I still can't keep all this swap info straight. Which isuzu bellhousing bolts to a440 via the a450 connection? Is that connection on the 4HE model only?

I suppose I should reread this thread and write stuff down!

Keep it up all, Chad

Sorry I have no information on the 4H series bellhousings. Only the Isuzu 4B series.
Well other than the backwards facing starter on the auto 4H powered NPR that I saw at a dealer a few years ago.

[68raisin]

I think it was astr who found a connection of 4HE using an a450 instead of the (nissan?) JE trans from previous engines. His post linked the a450 to the a440 I believe. I can't seem to find that post though.

[68raisin]

Dougal, didn't Bram have toyota trans dims in CAD of some sort. Maybe you could get the measurements from him for a model w/toyo pattern. Or has Bram already made a model?

I was just pondering that if the isuzu HE motor had an aisin a450 trans which was the same bolt pattern as the aisin a440 trans in toyotas, maybe the HE bellhousing would mount directly to the older BD blocks and widen the adaptability directly to toyota slushbox.

I don't know if I'm making any sense or if I'm even going down a path with potential.

I guess I need to get more powers!!!!

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 68raisin

Dougal, didn't Bram have toyota trans dims in CAD of some sort. Maybe you could get the measurements from him for a model w/toyo pattern. Or has Bram already made a model?

I was just pondering that if the isuzu HE motor had an aisin a450 trans which was the same bolt pattern as the aisin a440 trans in toyotas, maybe the HE bellhousing would mount directly to the older BD blocks and widen the adaptability directly to toyota slushbox.

I don't know if I'm making any sense or if I'm even going down a path with potential.

I guess I need to get more powers!!!!

AFAIK, Bram has only just started measuring things up.

It's quite possible the different trans have different bellhousings for different makes. The 4H series bellhousings are different to the 4B series.

[68raisin]

I think I answered most of my ?'s by rereading posts 40,45,82.

*The 4HE definitely has different block bolt pattern than 4BD series.

*The 4HE definitely has the aw450.

*The aw450 and a440/442 are similar transmissions, but to what extent?

Now I want to know if the aw450 and a440 share the same case. Possibly the a440 would mount up to the 4HE bellhousing, or the aw450 would mount up to the toy tranfercase after output shaft swap.

I think I've seen these ?'s posed already. Does anyone know if there are any answers yet?

[bram]

The answers are all in here guys. Unfortunately, there is no easy way. The only way to mate the 4bd1 or 2 to anything other than the stock manual or auto is with an adapter.

Here is what I have and what I am doing:
1) I have an excellent solid model of the 4bd1 (soon to be updated I hope!) complements of Dougal.
2) I have a 4bd1 bellhousing for the automatic transmission which i am currently measuring
3) I have recently enlisted the help of a mechanical engineer friend of mine to help me with some of the modeling and actually designing the adapter components
4) Unfettered access to a state of the art machine shop until the end of the year.

What I am trying to do:
1) Find the most effective way to adapt the 4bd1 or 2 to the stock fj60 drive train (H42 or H55F).
2) I am also willing to take a look at other trannies (A440), if i can get my hands on the parts.
3) My goal is to make the 4bd1 a drop in swap the way a SBC is currently

What I need:
1) blown up a440, blown up h42 (in my truck right now), 3fe bellhousing, late model 2f bellhousing
2) a garage. anyone in the worcester, ma area got some garage space for rent?

If I can get all the parts in a timely fashion then I should have an adapter designed by the end of the summer. As long as the adapter doesn't end up being too complicated the machining should not be too big of a deal.

Euclid, i pm'd you about the a440 and bellhousing. I want them.

[theSherpa]

A450/A440 similarity rumors started with me...the A450 is a development of A440/A442, as documented by something I found Googling. I wondered if bolt patterns on front and rear of A440 and A450 cases might be the same, ASTR measured/photographed/traced his A450 which I compared to my A440, and the bolt patterns are the same. 4HE1 bellhousing will bolt to front of A440 case. A440 transfer case adapter will bolt to back of A450. Input and output shafts (length, spline count, diameter), torque converter (stall, size) and flexplate are all different between 4HE1's A450 and cruiser A440. Who knows how similar they are inside. ASTR is looking at whether it's possible to swap A440 output shaft into A450 to allow a 4HE1/A450 from a '98 up (I think) NPR to bolt into an FJ62 with motor mounts and a shaft swap. No telling if that's possible yet. Stock A440 shift points and torque converter would be a poor match to torque and RPM range of 4HE1 (or 4BD1/2 for that matter) without a rebuild, Aussie valve body and low stall torque converter, IMHO...not to mention that used A440 output shafts are often knackered. Since 4HE1 bellhousing bolt pattern is apparently different (I have no first-hand knowledge), it looks like 4HE1 and 4DB1/2 swaps are headed in two different directions. 4BD1/2's auto is totally different, so that bellhousing won't help us get to a cruiser tranny. What I've described might get a 4HE1/auto in an FJ60/62/FJ80, but doesn't help get a 4HE1 in front of a manual tranny that has a transfer case on the back. Isuzudieselswapper's adapter looks like it'll make a 4BD1/2 look like a GM block. To get a 4HE1 in front of a 4WD manual tranny, you would use a 4HE1 auto or manual bellhousing (think clutch throwout here!) modified or used as basis for an adapter to some tranny, OR you could find an Isuzu NPS (4wd version never sold here) 5 speed OD tranny/transfer IF they're passenger drop.

Does that help?

Steve

Originally Posted by 68raisin

I think I answered most of my ?'s by rereading posts 40,45,82.

*The 4HE definitely has different block bolt pattern than 4BD series.

*The 4HE definitely has the aw450.

*The aw450 and a440/442 are similar transmissions, but to what extent?

Now I want to know if the aw450 and a440 share the same case. Possibly the a440 would mount up to the 4HE bellhousing, or the aw450 would mount up to the toy tranfercase after output shaft swap.

I think I've seen these ?'s posed already. Does anyone know if there are any answers yet?

[68raisin]

sherpa: I eventually got back and read your post where my ? started, thanks for updating. I have it all straight now and would still pursue both routes for trannies. I'll hunker down and let astr come up with the goods on a450 output shaft swapability and it looks like bram is getting it done as far as adapters go. I forgot if anyone had an a450 for an example, I might be able to come up with one if need be.

Keep up the great work!

[astr]

Originally Posted by 68raisin

sherpa: I eventually got back and read your post where my ? started, thanks for updating. I have it all straight now and would still pursue both routes for trannies. I'll hunker down and let astr come up with the goods on a450 output shaft swapability and it looks like bram is getting it done as far as adapters go. I forgot if anyone had an a450 for an example, I might be able to come up with one if need be.

Keep up the great work!

As Sherpa said, I have a A450 that I bought specifically for the purpose of determining the compatibility/interchangeability with the A440. With his help, we were able to determine that the bell housings and T-case adapters are intertchangeable between the two transmissions..

I also now have a donor FJ62 that I plan to pull the A440 with T-case once I get some time. I am hopeful that some combination of A440/A450 parts will allow an Isuszu 4HE! to easily hook up to a LC T-case. This does NOT help those trying to adapt Toy trannys to the 4BD1/2 series.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I personally still think adapting to the A440F is not the most intellegent way to hook it up. The 3FE and 2F and variants all have the same bolt pattern. So, an adapter that goes from the 4BD to a Toyota bolt pattern has some value, for the purpose of manual transmissions in my opinion, but the A440F is a huge waste of power, is expensive to replace and repair, and is not that durable, they seem to fail quite often. I remember reading some posts saying as much as 50% of the torque of a 3FE was lost in the transmission. Also, I have driven a FJ62 converted to standard transmission and it was **night and day** over the old auto. Auto = slug, standard, and that 3FE turns into a great little engine. I am a big fan of the 3FE. I feel like all those years of the F and 2F old school engines, they finally got right with the 3FE. Too bad they put a stopper on it with the A440F auto.

Also, I have had some experience with using that trans with other engines. It was a something funky but at a shop I briefly worked at, in a FJ80, they used that trans behind a Chevy 350 with the Marks kit (which is also funky, requires use of a manual flywheel and an auto flexplate, together) the setup never, ever worked right.... I have heard of a FJ80 with a 350 that it works fine in Texas, but I wouldn't recommend it. I am just not a fan of that transmission...

Also, that transmission might be in good shape but while you have the whole drivetrain out, might as well do it right and use the correct transmission because what if it fails 5 or 10K miles after, pull it out, and spend the $$ to replace it to put the same crappy trans in because you didn't take the time / spend the $$ to do it right the first time?

Also, it might not shift correctly with the diesel. It may shift fine, but honestly I couldn't say. When the big fancy non USA diesels are installed into FJ80s (the expensive Specter swaps, etc), they do not use the same A440F transmission, they buy complete drivetrain with a diesel specific A440F and use that. No one is willing to take the risk of using the old A440F.

If it were me, bare minimum I would have a 700R4 diesel specific model built up, but even then I am not a fan (both the 700R4 and the A440F do not have diesel lockups. = loss of mileage, loss of power). I would do a 4L60E or 4L80E ideally and use a standalone computer with shift points custom set to the diesel. Or buy a diesel specific model, but you will need a standalone computer. These are modern, more efficient autos versus the old issues, and will not provide the noticeable mileage losses.

Hope it helps and my $.02 on it....
Andre

[euclid]

I realize I may be in the minority, but I really like the A440F.

Mine is an Aussie rebuild with custom valve body, and that makes a big difference but I liked it before. They fail early because the radiator cooler doesn't do a good enough job keeping it cool. An extra cooler and it's bombproof long term, IMHO.

On shift points, the Aussie valve body can be customized pretty easily to affect shift points.

All that being said, if I didn't have a rebuilt A440 already I'd probably agree with you.

[bram]

Hey Andre,

I was just looking back at those measurements you took. 31" top to bottom right? That agrees with the mechanical drawings you have stored in the yahoo group.

So, what is the height of the isuzu 4bdx? I saw the pic of the 2f and 4db1 next to each other. The 4bd actually looks smaller. I am just trying to prove to myself that the 4bd will fit in a 60 with little or no lift.

[astr]

Originally Posted by dieselcruiserhead

I personally still think adapting to the A440F is not the most intellegent way to hook it up. .....

I would agree. I am hoping to use pieces (primarily the output shaft) from the A440 in the A450 to mate it to the LC T-case. The A450 is matched to the diesel engine (4HE1) and is also being sold behind the current 4HK1 engine. In addition, the A450 is used by at least Hino, Mitsubishi, and Nissan behind their 4-cyl truck diesels. So, if the mating problem with the LC T-case can be solved using A440 parts, then it open up all kinds of possibilities for fitting other diesels into Land Cruisers.