isuzu 4BD1T swap?!

[Dieseltim]

Bram, my info says it is internally bal. so no flywheel is needed for bal. if my info is correct.

Dieseltim

[astr]

There are no weights on the flywheel so the engine must be internally balanced.

Keep in mind that the starter mounts from the front on the 4BD1/2 so, if you move the flywheel back with a spacer, you will need to consider the starter meshing with the ring gear on the flywheel. From what little I can tell from the manual, the flex plate for the automatic transmission has the starter ring gear mounted to it so you may be able to sandwich a flex plate between your spacer and the crankshaft to provide a properly located ring gear for the starter.

[bram]

Thanks for pointing that out Andy. I will add that to the rapidly growing list of issues that must be addressed. I think that your flexplate idea has some legs, thanks!

Overall though, this is great news. The complexity of spacing the flywheel off the crank is peanuts compared to designing an adapter that can accept the H55F input shaft and then mate to the crank in such limited space. The part would probably have to be machined out of unobtanium to be strong enough. Seriously though, splines are very costly to machine. If I can keep them out of the design it will help keep the cost down.

[bram]

DieselTim: I am not doubting you (in fact nothing would make me happier than for you to be correct) but what is the source of your info?

I could use such a source.

[RHINO]

hereare a few of my thoughts,

balance, the engine must be internally balanced, i have both flywheel and flex plate in my hands and there is no weight on either, the flex plate has nothing and the fly wheel has a few holes drilled to balance it to itself.

adapter, a spacer style already exists, not my first choice but it does work fine and has been around for some time so it is proven. its what i have, two flywheels gets a little heavy but my chevy flywheel is only 14lbs and thats about the difference from the isuzu pressure plate.
how about this? have the isuzu flywheel re-drilled to accept a cruiser pressure plate, simple and cheap, then have a bellhousing made, could get costly. for this i would contact the lakewood company and talk about a stamped steel one.

flex plate, no go on its own. it needs something bolted to it like a converter to keep it rigid otherwise it warbles and flexes while being turned over.

also, is your machine shop able to balance a custom spacer, flywheel or whatever spinning thing you get made? its very important they can.

[astr]

Another thought regarding manual transmission type swaps:

The bell housing on the Isuzu manual transmissions bolts to the transmission. So why not use a 4BD1/2 engine with the Isuzu flywheel, pressure plate, clutch release mechanism and and bellhousing. Fab an adapter plate between the bell housing and transmission of choice and then use a clutch disk that matches the splines on the tranny and is of appropriate diameter for Isuzu pressure plate.

This approach would only work if you have some extra length to the tranny input shaft to allow an adapter to be place between the tranny and bellhousing. Some adjustments might also have to be made to the pilot bearing and the sleeve that the thowout bearing rides on. I've used this approach to mate a Toyota R151F tranny to a Mazda rotary engine.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I am loving the strength and depth of information this thread has. I have been looking and trying to assemble good info on the 4BD1T for YEARS... This is probably the most comprehensive info source believe it or not, that I have probably seen in ages...

[RHINO]

well DRE you are part of my inspiration to even be doing the swap in the first place. one day i'll shake your hand.

[bram]

I love you guys....................Sorry, I couldnt resist.

Andy: Yeah, Im with you there. That would be the best possible situation. even if I needed to machine a small extension to grab the pilot bearing and the crank it would still be the easiest path. I have been operating under the assumption that the H55F input shaft would not be long enough. The only way to settle this is the measure all the parts and figure it out.

Rhino: I have 2 primary goals here. First, I want to make the 4bd1/2 a more or less drop in upgrade for 40-60 series lancruisers. If I use the existing adapter then i have to move the entire drive train, cut the driveshafts, fabricate or move crossmembers, etc, etc. The adapter is great for the GM trucks that it is meant for but its not what I am looking for.

Second, I want to make it affordable. There is no way that a custom bellhousing would be affordable for the average guy unless ordered in the 100s quantity. I think that the solution will retain either the stock isuzu or toyota bellhousing, possibly modified. I just realized that, if it will clear the firewall, the isuzu would be preferred becuase the amount of material required to fabricate the adapter would be much less on the tranny side than the motor side. On the motor side you end up trashing the entire inside of the ring. That could easily be a $50-$100 hunk of metal. I will look into the lakewood company though, never heard that name before.

You are probably correct about the flex plate flexing but i have never actaully held one to gauge its strength. I see that as the simplest of the problems to be addressed. The extra distance could be made up in other ways, such as creative starter mounting or lengthening its shaft.

I do have access to balancing equipment so no worries about that.

Keep the ideas coming guys. DRE(?) and Rhino, you are the guys actually biting the bullet and getting it done. I have a lot of respect for that. The whole cruiser community is going to benefit from the instights you guys are providing. With a little more work we can make this a modification that is as easy or easier than a SBC swap. Screw the oil barons, I'm going diesel.

[nickwood48]

Its really cool to see guys stepping up and figuring this stuff out. My hat goes off to you.

I get all wam and fuzzy thinking about the day that isuzu swaps are as straight forward as SBC's.

Just think, 10 years from now we will all look back on this thread as the 'beginnings' of where it all started.

Keep up the good work guys.....

[dieselcruiserhead]

Originally Posted by RHINO

well DRE you are part of my inspiration to even be doing the swap in the first place. one day i'll shake your hand.

You too CLAY its been years man... Someday..

[PurpleFJ62]

Good to see some progress on this idea. I see lots of good talk here, bring up new ideas, and thinking about them in great detail.

I think the idea about making the starter shaft longer is a good idea, but the longer a peice of metal is I would think it would be more apt to twist. And enought twists it could snap. If it was made out of some stong metal you would probally never have a problem.

I have to say that getting away from the SBC is a great idea. It sucks that you can put that engine into just about anything made, but diesel swaps are such a pain in the ass. That will be changing in the future....

keep up the good work.

[Dieseltim]

Bram, all of the info I have is from what I have read on the internet and the engines that I have. The flywheels do not seem to have any bal. weights added or any large sections machined out to adjust the bal. also I don't really see anything like a harmonic dampner on the front of the crank either. From the forum out of austrailia there is a guy on there that had the whole engine bal. one part at a time. He said that one of his connecting rods was out about 22grams heavier than the others, but after it was all done he was very happy to find that it ran better and idles better, with better tq. I will post a link up to the austrailain site when I find it again.

Dieseltim

[bram]

Yeah, i remember reading that on 4btswaps and / or maybe pirate? Does the motor have an internal balance shaft or is it just designed to absorb the mismatch?

[astr]

There is no internal balance shaft on the 4BD1, however, there is the standard crankshaft damper mounted behind the crankshaft pulley.

[RHINO]

i took the isuzu flywheel down to a local engine builder/balancer/power builder. its balanced to itself so the engine does not use it for counterbalance. he also took 8LBS off it while it was there, the chevy flywheel is down to 13LBS, so i am confident it will run and drive like normal, he is confident i will suffer no ill will running the dual flywheel set-up, even in its heavier state. for comparison the chevy flywheel was 30.8 LBS and the isuzu was 38.3LBS.
i also built the bracket for the cruiser transfer case shifter the other day along with some other misc things that needed to be done. i built the new throtte and shut off cables and got them in the pig. made the york bracket so i dont have to give up OBA.
got the alt. pigtail done. i orded a whole set of bomb proof mounts from RUFFSTUFF and will use those instead of the stock plush isuzu mounts, i fired it the other day on the floor and rested my glass of tea on the valve cover,, vibes should be just fine with more solid motor mounts. i have almost got the dual air filter box made, will use paper prefilter and oiled foam main, with a short snorkel out the corner of the hood hummer style. so i am ready to drop it in its new home tomorow morning.

[bram]

great info, thanks!

[dieselcruiserhead]

Guys, enough activity aboout 4BD swaps that we decided to start a whole section on the 4BTswaps.com site about it... !

Link:
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by bram

yeah, very cool.

Purplefj - the idea is that this will be a bellhousing adapter. If it is true that all 2F and 3F bellhousings are the same on the motor side then it should work for both. I also need to make a spacer to make the tranny input shaft reach the clutch and I havnt really worked that out yet. Once I figure the manual out then I will try for the auto.

I dont know anything about the auto so im gonna need some help with that. What I really need is a blown up A440 and a blown up H42. My H42 is about to blow up though, so i have that covered.

I do have an A440 , and it will be out of my fj62 and on the ground soon. I also have a 4bd1t that is getting the final parts installed from a complete rebuild. I would love to work out the details with you, I can get some drawings, or a trace, or whatever you may need to help out the project.

I think an adapter plate, and if needed a coupler from the flywheel to a flexplate, so that you can attach the torque converter.

[rtarh2o]

I have been reading the posts here for several weeks, was considering a 1HD-t swap but due to the cost, rarity and complicated conversion I am considering the Isuzu. My main goal is a good daily driver with good fuel economy. I want to be able to pull a car trailer from time to time as well. I would also like to eventually convert it to run on WVO. I have a 97 FJ80 waiting for the conversion. I am not sure of my transmission (have read alot of trans #'s on the forum but don't know what the 97's have) It sounds like the wiring will be fairly easy, what about engine mounts, trans adapters etc. It sounds like maybe the 4BD2T might be the best choice? All help/advice is welcome.
Thanks - Rusty

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by rtarh2o

It sounds like maybe the 4BD2T might be the best choice? All help/advice is welcome.
Thanks - Rusty

The 4BD2T is indirect injection. Expect it to be quieter, but also less efficent than a 4BD1T.
There are also an alarming number of new 4BD2T heads on Ebay, if there's that much demand I'd be steering clear.

The 4BD2T exhaust manifold I have also came from a 4BD2T with a cracked head.

Need any more convincing.

[rtarh2o]

Thanks, sounds like the 4BD1T is the way to go. Has anyone put this in an FJ80? Any idea what trans or adapter I am going to need? What about the engine mounts? Someone must have done this. Thanks
Rusty
97 FJ80
78 FJ40

[PurpleFJ62]

which one of the two isuzus was intercooled. I have been looking around the net for photos and it looks like the non-intercooled one has the turbo outlet pointing up so it goes over the valve cover. I assume the intercooled engine has the turbo hanging a different way? Sounds like the 4bd2t has some problems. Was it intercooled I believe, and the 4bd1t was not intercooled. Do the manifolds interchange, I would think you could take manifold and turbo and mount on the 4bd1t to make provisions for a fmic a little easier.

[astr]

Originally Posted by PurpleFJ62

which one of the two isuzus was intercooled. I have been looking around the net for photos and it looks like the non-intercooled one has the turbo outlet pointing up so it goes over the valve cover. I assume the intercooled engine has the turbo hanging a different way? Sounds like the 4bd2t has some problems. Was it intercooled I believe, and the 4bd1t was not intercooled. Do the manifolds interchange, I would think you could take manifold and turbo and mount on the 4bd1t to make provisions for a fmic a little easier.

The 4BD2t was installed in NPR trucks with an intercooler, whereas the 4BD1T was not. The 4BD2T is rated at 135 hp whereas the 4BD1T is rated at 121 hp. I suspect the intercooler to be primarily the reason for the difference in hp. Both engines share the same block. The difference is in the heads and pistons.

The turbochargers are set up almost identically on both engines so you could easily add an intercooler to a 4BD1. If you were to drop a 4BD1T into an NPR that originally had the 4BD2T, the intercooler plumbing would hookj right up - you would only have to turn the turbo housing to line it up with the pipes.

As far as relaibility, I suspect both are about the same. The fact that there are a lot of 4BD2 heads on ebay only means someone has a lot of them for sale. If you notice, none of them ever sell so it would suggest the demand is low.

For those wanting to run WVO, I understand that an IDI setup is more suitable which would suggest selecting a 4BD2T.

Below, are the two turbo setups. The one one the left is the 4BD1T and the one on the right is the 4BD2t with intercooler hooked up. The compressor housing is rotated 90* between the two.

[rtarh2o]

Ok, see if I am thinking correctly. I am trying to get the Isuzu engine to my toyota auto trans. Marks Adapters in Australia sells an adapter to mount a chevy diesel to the land cruiser auto trans. Can I use that with the adapter from isuzu diesel swappers that mates the isuzu engine to the Chevy trans? It seems like the Marks adapter basically makes the trans fit a chevy bolt pattern and I am thinking the Isuzu diesel swappers kit must make the isuzu fit the chevy trans. If this thinking is correct it would seem like it would work?
Thanks
Rusty
97 FJ80
78 Fj40

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

As far as relaibility, I suspect both are about the same. The fact that there are a lot of 4BD2 heads on ebay only means someone has a lot of them for sale. If you notice, none of them ever sell so it would suggest the demand is low.

The 4BD2T exhaust manifold I have came from a 4BD2T which had cracked it's head.

Manifolds and turbos are completely swappable. Those photos you posted show the latest model turbo on a 4BD1T, which is basically identical to the 4BD2T turbo.
That turbo is a non-wastegated T25 with a T3 mounting flange.

Other 4BD1T's came with wastegated T25's, several other exhaust manifolds exist as well.

[astr]

Originally Posted by Dougal

.... Those photos you posted show the latest model turbo on a 4BD1T, which is basically identical to the 4BD2T turbo.
That turbo is a non-wastegated T25 with a T3 mounting flange.

Other 4BD1T's came with wastegated T25's, several other exhaust manifolds exist as well.

The 4BD1T in the photo is dated 8/89 and the 4BD2T is dated 12/93. I expect there were many variations of these engines depending on the country that they were destined for. I know that here in the US, NPR trucks came mostly turboed whereas in Costa Rica, most were not.

[PurpleFJ62]

Astr- thanks for the photos, helps to see the 2 set ups. I was at my local machine shop getting some cyl head work done of my own and I figured I would ask some questions about isuzu. They told me they have gotten some in the shop over the years and that they are good engines. Commented that all had over 300,000 miles on them, so apparently they last.

Dougal- I have herd of turbonetics t3 turbos. The tuners use them because they have ball bearings, is this what you are talking about. A diesel with a shiny turbo on it would really be something. I have herd good things about turbonetics b.b. turbos, supposted to spool up much faster. Almost like a supercharger.

Ebay has a few isuzu diesels, but not many. Do you think it would be wise for someone doing this swap to get an entire truck? It sounds like its simple engine, so it there anything you would have to get from the donar vehicle?