isuzu 4BD1T swap?!

[rtarh2o]

8tlc, I am running 285/75 tires and have the speedo correction gear from Slee. I also have GPS and it is right on. My tach is a Tiny Tach, it is great, hooks up to an injector line and uses a 12V input. I am pretty sure I am running right around 2,200 rpm at 70 mph.(can't remember right off the top of my head but will drive it down the road if you want to know) The electronic lock-up is installed. I try to keep the speed around 65 to keep the rpm down, apparently the 6.2 has the best mileage around 1,800 rpm. I have gotten 20 mpg, think I can do better but I really like feel of the engine around 2,000 rpm, it actually will accelerate at a decent pace. Since I now have a 40 gallon auxiliary tank and am running WVO I am not as concerned about the mileage.
Rusty

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by RHINO

88tlc, not sure what to think here. i want more turbo at some point but mine sure seems to be doing better than yours. i dont have 10% grades to test, but on a 7% i can hold 4th. ive been loaded pretty heavy and pulling the trailer up 7%, i deemed 3rd good at a couple spots where it seems steeper but i have to make myself slow down a bit to do it otherwise its at that point where i should shift. i kinda need a 3.5 gear and i think thats where 4:56 comes in.

i'm running 37's on 4:10 gears.

i'm doing 1900-2100rpm at cruise(63-65mph).

i dont know much about timing, i have a diesel guy that i like and he helped me with a spendy tool to check and adjust mine, it did seem to change the sound a bit and the performance eh? hard to tell.

ive got the fuel screw right at the point where i get a puff of smoke on hard throttle. but i dont yet have an EGT so i dont want to fiddle with it too much.

i know it can get better but i'm quite happy with mine, i wonder where yours is falling? i cant imagine your 60 is much heavier than my 55, its a porker.

thanks for the data points. a 7% grade with a trailer, still in 4th is awesome, i will take that! i kind of expected that kind of diesel power.

was curious what your boost looks like at cruise? I only get like 3- 4 psi, seems like it is too low. I want to try and a 4bd2t turbo, i am hoping it is a easy swap. seems like perhaps my turbo is not generating enough boost, which results in low power, rich fuel ratio, and high egts?

[Dougal]

My vehicle at 2.5t all up can pull up an 6.75 deg (is this11.8%) slope at 80km/h in 4th gear.
That works out at 75kw at the wheels at 2000rpm.

I'm running 20psi boost, no intercooler and fuelling to deliver 750C EGT's at that boost.
It's fun to drive.

[RHINO]

cruiserbrett, an intercooler will have lots of room, i have the engine off the firewall a good 5-6" and about 4" from the fan to radiator.
my overdrive should be .83. the cruise rpm is very good, it really quiets the engine down. if you dont count the turbo whine its much quieter than the 2F at speed.

88TLC, i still dont have a boost guage, so i dont know my pressure. i listen to the turbo at different ranges though and can say that at cruise its right on its mark. right where you can hear it singing and when you step on the pedal it perks right up and pulls pretty strong (for what it is).

[zaksl17]

88tlc thanks for the pics of the oil pan, I extended the bump stops for now until i get another pan to modify.

In my 40 i have the 4bd1t connected to a built 4l60E ( with Compushift) to my stock transfer. The little diesel is perfect in the 40 but i think it would under power any heavy rig. I cruise up 10% grades at 65 but i can't keep the converter locked. The low end torque is great, I've only been brave enough for full throttle start once and my tires broke free on the shift to second.

I don't have pyro, boost , or tach yet so i can't give numbers. Overall i like the diesel better than the chevy V8 I had, its quieter and less heat in the cab. I just wish it had a little more top end power and a little better fuel mileage. I like the auto but this engine might work better (better economy) with a manual.

When I get all the gauges in I'll start turning up the fuel screw and see what happens. I have other details to fix first. For now I'm happy to be driving it everyday to work.

[88tlc]

thanks dougal for your data point. how are you getting 20psi of boost? are you seriously running the engine at 750 deg C? that is like 1550 deg F? would you recommend running that high on a stock engine?

you other guys, we need to get you some gages!

was looking at the 4bd1t turbo, and the 4bd2t with wastegate turbo.

some images attached from some for sale on ebay, the flange and fittings look to be the same. can anyone confirm this?

does anyone have a 4bd2t with the wastegate turbo running? was curious what kind of boost it can run, and what kind of boost you can get.

I would like to try more boost, and if needed just adjust the waste gate, or optimize for 15-20 psi, and see what it can do to the 4b1t.

is the intercooler option buy you much power?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

thanks dougal for your data point. how are you getting 20psi of boost? are you seriously running the engine at 750 deg C? that is like 1550 deg F? would you recommend running that high on a stock engine?

I'm using a smaller turbo than stock, mine is a wastegated T25 with a 0.49 A/R exhaust housing. The stock turbo is a TB25 which has exactly the same compressor but a bigger exhaust housing and no wastegate.

I have been running those temps for the last 8000km and see no damage. I've had the occasional excursion past too. Most people put excessive safety factors on their EGT levels.

Originally Posted by 88tlc

was looking at the 4bd1t turbo, and the 4bd2t with wastegate turbo.

some images attached from some for sale on ebay, the flange and fittings look to be the same. can anyone confirm this?

Hey that's new, I have never seen that turbo before. The 4BD2's I've seen had no wastegate. Yes it's the same flange and core.
You'll be able to push close to 20psi with the stock turbo, but only at higher rpm. Probably suffering smoke and high EGT's below that or poor response if you have the boost compensator set to deal with the smoke and EGT's. This is why I went smaller, I have 20psi boost from ludicrously low revs.

Yes an intercooler is a good idea, I haven't yet fitted one. Partly due to space, mostly due to sloth.

[ozwallaby]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

thanks dougal for your data point. how are you getting 20psi of boost? are you seriously running the engine at 750 deg C? that is like 1550 deg F? would you recommend running that high on a stock engine?

Don't forget Dougals ex temp is taken BEFORE the turbine so gives a higher reading than AFTER the turbine.. this is just in case you don't know how Dougal has his pyro set up.....

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by ozwallaby

Don't forget Dougals ex temp is taken BEFORE the turbine so gives a higher reading than AFTER the turbine.. this is just in case you don't know how Dougal has his pyro set up.....

Always good to note.
I never recommend fitting a pyro probe after the turbine as all accuracy is lost.
In the exhaust manifold upstream of the turbo is the only sensible place.

[cruiserbrett]

A few questions on the aw450... I know the starter is rear facing on it, but is the block/bellhousing bolt pattern the same as the 4bd1/2T's??? I gather a bolt or two might not be in the right place due to the starter, but the rest? Giving up a bolt or two is not too much of a concern to me, if the other 8 or so work out.

I found a actual picture diagram of the aw450 internals. I dont have either a a440 or an aw450, but maybe someone can compare to the output on an a440...

website:http://www.ganzeboom.net/images1/gan...AW450-43LE.pdf

does anyone know the gear ratios of the aw450? mostly concerned with OD ratio. Anyone with the Isuzu FSM have these availible?

[astr]

Originally Posted by cruiserbrett

A few questions on the aw450... I know the starter is rear facing on it, but is the block/bellhousing bolt pattern the same as the 4bd1/2T's??? I gather a bolt or two might not be in the right place due to the starter, but the rest? Giving up a bolt or two is not too much of a concern to me, if the other 8 or so work out.

I found a actual picture diagram of the aw450 internals. I dont have either a a440 or an aw450, but maybe someone can compare to the output on an a440...

website:http://www.ganzeboom.net/images1/gan...AW450-43LE.pdf

does anyone know the gear ratios of the aw450? mostly concerned with OD ratio. Anyone with the Isuzu FSM have these availible?

The AW450 that came with the 4HE1 and 4HK1 engines will not bolt up to the 4BD1/2. I did try to mate up the AW450 bell housing to the back of a 4BD1 unsuccessfully as the back end of the blocks are different.

If you want more details on the AW450, you can download the FSM from here: Master Portal - forums.bauchan.org/Isuzu Manuals The AW450 is covered in the chassis manual, 1999 and later. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the gear ratios in the manual.

[RHINO]

guys i need a favor, i dont have access to an isuzu 5 speed right now (go figure) can someone get me right-on measurements for the input shaft length (from the bellhousing mount surface) and the diameter of the shaft at the pilot bearing.

this is for a 4BD1T engine.

thanks in advance

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by RHINO

guys i need a favor, i dont have access to an isuzu 5 speed right now (go figure) can someone get me right-on measurements for the input shaft length (from the bellhousing mount surface) and the diameter of the shaft at the pilot bearing.

this is for a 4BD1T engine.

thanks in advance

Shaft diameter 17mm.
Shaft protrusion 81mm +/-1mm.

[RHINO]

81mm,,,,, just to be clear i'm looking for the overall shaft length from the face of the transmission case. that number is the stickout as you lay a straightedge on the bellhousing?

thanks dougal i figured you would be on top of it, if you can get an overall length i'd be i your debt as i dont have a tranny or bellhousing for my own measure.

i'm working with a machinist to mill a new bellhousing that will mate an H55F tranny to the engine, if it works out we'll then have a go at the easy part, re drilling the isuzu flywheel for a cruiser pressure plate.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by Dougal

I'm using a smaller turbo than stock, mine is a wastegated T25 with a 0.49 A/R exhaust housing. The stock turbo is a TB25 which has exactly the same compressor but a bigger exhaust housing and no wastegate.

I have been running those temps for the last 8000km and see no damage. I've had the occasional excursion past too. Most people put excessive safety factors on their EGT levels.



Hey that's new, I have never seen that turbo before. The 4BD2's I've seen had no wastegate. Yes it's the same flange and core.
You'll be able to push close to 20psi with the stock turbo, but only at higher rpm. Probably suffering smoke and high EGT's below that or poor response if you have the boost compensator set to deal with the smoke and EGT's. This is why I went smaller, I have 20psi boost from ludicrously low revs.

Yes an intercooler is a good idea, I haven't yet fitted one. Partly due to space, mostly due to sloth.

curious what this 4bd2t turbo core is and how it compares to the t25? sounds like dougal you have a t25 but with a smaller hot side housing?

i am interested in more turbo boost, and the garretts would be much easier to configure into the current engine setup.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

curious what this 4bd2t turbo core is and how it compares to the t25? sounds like dougal you have a t25 but with a smaller hot side housing?

i am interested in more turbo boost, and the garretts would be much easier to configure into the current engine setup.

The non-wastegated turbo core is a TB25. Exactly the same bearing core and compressor as the T25 I'm running, but it has a larger exhaust wheel and bigger A/R exxhaust housing. It also has a T3 inlet flange.
I have one, but I haven't run it and it's unlikely I ever will.
The TB25 I have would need rebuilt and me to change all the pipes (exhaust, air intake, turbo outlet, oil in, oil drain), so it's not really worth the hassle.

[88tlc]

still trying to wrangle up a turbo that works well on the 4bd1t. in looking at more, I end up with a ton more questions. any help is appreciated to understand the nomenclature of what seems to be the most important, and most complicated component of performance!

T3 - does this only refer to the exhaust mount?
T25 - this refers to the core size?
TB2522 - this turbo specifically as an example, how does this compare to the stock 4bd2t, or the nissan bluebird t25?

A/R numbers - this area to radius ratio, is it just comparitive, or does it relate to Mass air flow, or MAP?

from ebay...
This is a genuine Garrett T25 turbo. It is brand new. It's Garrett P/N 465749-5001. The Turbine A/R is .49. Compressor A/R is .48 This was the OE turbo used on Pontiacs in the late '80's. It has the same specs as the stock CA18DET turbo other than it uses different oil and water connections. It is good for about 225 HP.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

still trying to wrangle up a turbo that works well on the 4bd1t. in looking at more, I end up with a ton more questions. any help is appreciated to understand the nomenclature of what seems to be the most important, and most complicated component of performance!

T3 - does this only refer to the exhaust mount?
T25 - this refers to the core size?
TB2522 - this turbo specifically as an example, how does this compare to the stock 4bd2t, or the nissan bluebird t25?

A/R numbers - this area to radius ratio, is it just comparitive, or does it relate to Mass air flow, or MAP?

from ebay...
This is a genuine Garrett T25 turbo. It is brand new. It's Garrett P/N 465749-5001. The Turbine A/R is .49. Compressor A/R is .48 This was the OE turbo used on Pontiacs in the late '80's. It has the same specs as the stock CA18DET turbo other than it uses different oil and water connections. It is good for about 225 HP.

So many questions.

T3 is a family of turbos, but T3 also describes a mounting flange. The TB25 that is stock on these has the T3 mounting flange. The T3 mounting flange is also used by a whole slew of other turbos from Holset, Schwitzer/KKK and a lot of custom ricer turbos.

T25 is again a family which is part of the larger T2 family. Yes it basically describes the core size but many parts interchange with other turbos from the T2 family including the larger T28's.

According to Turbomaster, the stock 4BD2T turbo is a TB2568
TurboMaster - Turbos - Despieces Modelo TB2568 - 466409-0002
The closest listing they have to my nissan T25 is this TB2525
TurboMaster - Turbos - Despieces Modelo TB2525 - 465795-0003
My part number is actually 455767-0003

Did I mention that I have designs for adapters to fit T25/T28 turbos to the T3 manifold you have? PM me your email and I can send you a copy.

That ebay turbo is functionally identical to mine. There are small differences (like different wastegate actuator), but they relate to the turbo packaging rather than function.
TurboMaster - Search catalogs and applications for parts and model numbers

[88tlc]

thanks dougal, owe you a beer! that will have to do until my next trip to NZ.

good information. i have found a lot of various garretts out there, so it is now really just making sure i know what i am getting.

mount - t3 mount is the isuzu manifold, and the stock turbo tb25 has a T3. but the t25 does not have a t3 mount? I have found some other t25 that is a T3 mount, so this should bolt on? i have your drawing, it is awesome, and will use if I need it, but kind of confused. what mount does your t25 have (if it has a different standard)?


turbo - have found some t25 off of 300zx, and some others. a/r of .49, and .60 as I recall for turbine, and compressor. part numbers are a nissan part number 14411 something.... getting more beta.

seems like this is slightly better than the wastegated 4bd2t, as the A/R of .49 is smaller, faster, than the 4bd2 A/R .67.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

thanks dougal, owe you a beer! that will have to do until my next trip to NZ.

good information. i have found a lot of various garretts out there, so it is now really just making sure i know what i am getting.

mount - t3 mount is the isuzu manifold, and the stock turbo tb25 has a T3. but the t25 does not have a t3 mount? I have found some other t25 that is a T3 mount, so this should bolt on? i have your drawing, it is awesome, and will use if I need it, but kind of confused. what mount does your t25 have (if it has a different standard)?


turbo - have found some t25 off of 300zx, and some others. a/r of .49, and .60 as I recall for turbine, and compressor. part numbers are a nissan part number 14411 something.... getting more beta.

seems like this is slightly better than the wastegated 4bd2t, as the A/R of .49 is smaller, faster, than the 4bd2 A/R .67.

You're getting there.
My T25 uses the T2 flange. The T25 and T28 flanges use the T2 bolt pattern but sometimes the port size changes a bit.

The other turbos.
The 300ZX (twin turbo) used two T2/T25 hybrid turbos. They're smaller still than the T25 I have as each one is only feeing 1500cc of engine.
Nissan also have a T25G which is a supersized T25. It has "Nissan" instead of Garrett cast into the compressor cover but isn't suitable for high boost.

The nissan Skyline (don't think you'll find many of these in Canada or the US) has a small T28 with a 0.64 A/R exhaust and a 0.42 A/R compressor. I have one of these but haven't fitted it and probably won't. This is the next step above the T25.
The nissan Pulsars with the SR20DET engine have a T28 with a 0.84 A/R exhaust and 0.8 A/R compressor. This is getting near the disco potato turbo and is very large for our engines. I know a guy in Aussie who is currently half way through installing one so we'll see how it goes.
I also have one of these turbos (I'm a collector) which may be the big turbo in the compound setup I'm working on.

[gifu]

hey 88TLC, why not just run the HY35W9 that a bunch of the 4BT guys are raving about? You can pick them up cheap off craigslist or the classifieds section of TDR. Another option, only because I can speak of personal experience, might be an H1C. These turbos came stock on early Dodge Cummins 6BT and the Cummins 4BT. I drove a 4BT powered 80 series with H1C and aftermarket smaller housing (12CM is most common, usually no wastegate); it had great boost from just off idle, peaking at 22PSI.

the reason I am suggesting these, is they can be had cheap, parts are cheap, and they are plentiful.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by gifu

hey 88TLC, why not just run the HY35W9 that a bunch of the 4BT guys are raving about? You can pick them up cheap off craigslist or the classifieds section of TDR. Another option, only because I can speak of personal experience, might be an H1C. These turbos came stock on early Dodge Cummins 6BT and the Cummins 4BT. I drove a 4BT powered 80 series with H1C and aftermarket smaller housing (12CM is most common, usually no wastegate); it had great boost from just off idle, peaking at 22PSI.

the reason I am suggesting these, is they can be had cheap, parts are cheap, and they are plentiful.

Those Holsets are huge. A good option if you've got the space but I haven't. There's a guy on 4BTswaps running one on a 4BD1T, but it's a recent build and he hasn't got the guages in yet.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by gifu

hey 88TLC, why not just run the HY35W9 that a bunch of the 4BT guys are raving about? You can pick them up cheap off craigslist or the classifieds section of TDR. Another option, only because I can speak of personal experience, might be an H1C. These turbos came stock on early Dodge Cummins 6BT and the Cummins 4BT. I drove a 4BT powered 80 series with H1C and aftermarket smaller housing (12CM is most common, usually no wastegate); it had great boost from just off idle, peaking at 22PSI.

the reason I am suggesting these, is they can be had cheap, parts are cheap, and they are plentiful.

I looked at the one i found on 4btswaps.com, carcrafter 22. while it sounds like it works well, there were some significant adjustments made to make it work.

vac pump removed from alternator.

exhaust moves to aft.

intake moves to forward

exhaust port, is it a T3 ? it may be , but I am not certain.

these turbos are larger.

[88tlc]

talking to this guy in montreal, at blaastperformance.com.
he is recommending the t3 50 trim

turbine .48a/r, 68 trim.
compressor .42 a/r, 42.5/60.1 50 trim


internal wastegated.



stage 1 1/2 turbine is also proposed, to get early spool up.

thoughts of this style? this guy can build up a unit with smaller turbine housing if needed.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

talking to this guy in montreal, at blaastperformance.com.
he is recommending the t3 50 trim

turbine .48a/r, 68 trim.
compressor .42 a/r, 42.5/60.1 50 trim


internal wastegated.



stage 1 1/2 turbine is also proposed, to get early spool up.

thoughts of this style? this guy can build up a unit with smaller turbine housing if needed.

That will work well, it's quite close (slightly larger) than the older stock wastegated turbos and with the smaller exhaust will spool sooner than what you currently have.
Does he have a ball bearing option?