isuzu 4BD1T swap?!

[andrew.fletcher]

I talked to Dave not too long ago about the whole bushing/pilot bearing thing. The photo should help to explain it. You need the bearing from the manual flywheel set-up, not the auto. My started as an auto and that bushing is too big. It should be #188 not 188A. I can't confirm this though because I still need to order mine to make sure it's the right one.

[RHINO]

your right, my apologies for that. i remember now that i thought about replacing the pilot bearing because it was seized but didnt because it doesnt spin on the adapter. now i am wondering why he didnt make it for no bearing at all. hmmm. i can stop at the dealer and get a number if you need it.

[andrew.fletcher]

The only reason I can think for the adaptor going into that bearing is to help with initially lining up the adapter to the flywheel. ??

If you could get me a part number and find out shipping to 93955, that would be outstanding.

We're getting closer everyday, almost to the point of nickel dime stuff like separator and routing of the turbo. Still trying to figure out best option for the intercooler. It doesn't look like we can get the stock to fit too well. I think with the auto trans the size of the bellhousing pushed the engine just far enough forward that we'll need to go a different route. We'll see here pretty soon. I need to update the build thread with the latest and greatest.

[RHINO]

yes you do,,,

dont ya have an isuzu dealer near ya?? my dealer has everything, most of it over the counter. but i can easily get the bearing and mail it your way if thats what you need.

[cruiserbrett]

Okay,
I read through this entire thread; wow there is lots of info, and now I want to scrap the plans for the 2F in my 72 Fj55...

Some of my thoughts:
I really like the idea of a manual 5 speed in my project, but I am not a fan of the NV4500 b/c its a stiff shifting tranny with a few gaps between gears that I didnt care for. So, this leads me back down the h55f path.
The standard h55F that everyone puts behind F/2F/3F motors has the shortest input shaft length of the different versions of the tranny available. The B series has a longer input shaft with 21 splines, and the HZ version has a slightly shorter input than the B, but longer than the standard h55f, also with 21 splines...
Maybe one of these will give enough length to run the bellhousing plate like dieseltim did with the NV4500???

Anyone have the different lengths of these input shafts?

[cruiserbrett]

okay, search for some pics from the various sections on the board, and found thisI(shamelessly pirated)...

Might be doable with the HZ input(pictured with the 10 spline F/H series input, or the B series(pictured alone)

Interestingly, rick D says there is an isuzu clutch disc that fits the fine spline input of the HZ and B series input and is 300mm OD?

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by cruiserbrett

Interestingly, rick D says there is an isuzu clutch disc that fits the fine spline input of the HZ and B series input and is 300mm OD?

Do you know the spline? I have two Isuzu clutches here I can measure.

[astr]

There seems to be two different manual transmissions that were used with the 4BD1/2T in the US. The MSA-5D was used with all of the 4BD1T's and the early 4BD2T's, until about 1996. In 1997 and 1998, the MXA-5D was used. One of the differences between the two transmissions was the input shaft. They were the same length and had the same diameter pilot bearing (17 mm), but the MSA input shaft had 24 splines and was 24.8 mm OD at the splines whereas the MXA input shaft had only 21 splines but was larger diameter of 27.7 mm. The shaft on the left is on an MSA-5d and the shaft on the right is on an MXA-5D.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by astr

There seems to be two different manual transmissions that were used with the 4BD1/2T in the US. The MSA-5D was used with all of the 4BD1T's and the early 4BD2T's, until about 1996. In 1997 and 1998, the MXA-5D was used. One of the differences between the two transmissions was the input shaft. They were the same length and had the same diameter pilot bearing (17 mm), but the MSA input shaft had 24 splines and was 24.8 mm OD at the splines whereas the MXA input shaft had only 21 splines but was larger diameter of 27.7 mm. The shaft on the left is on an MSA-5d and the shaft on the right is on an MXA-5D.

Not just in the US.
I have an MSA-5P which was allegedly new in the early 90's, it has a different spline to the MSA-5G I am currently using which is substantially newer.

The clutch plates are all that is needed to fit either box up to the engine, I have both here which I can measure. This is a limited time offer, the engine will be going back in shortly. It's currently out so I can replace the thrust bearings which were forgotten about in the last two rebuilds.

[cruiserbrett]

I dont have the dimensions on the HZ or B series 21 spline inputs, so I am hoping that someone will post up. I am thinking that a bellhousing plate that serves as the adapter to the bellhousing, as well as the front bearing retainer(also with the sleeve for the T/O bearing) for the H55F. obviously this will be possible with the longer B series shaft, and it would be great if the spline count/diameter worked so the clutch worked out...

There is a good local machine shop in North county SD, and I might try to find an engine and by an H55F to get this figured...

[cruiserbrett]

Anyone have a 5 speed and bellhousing(MSA-5D tranny found behind 4bd1T)??? I should be able to make a drawing for the adapter from just these parts, along with a B series H55F...

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by cruiserbrett

Anyone have a 5 speed and bellhousing(MSA-5D tranny found behind 4bd1T)??? I should be able to make a drawing for the adapter from just these parts, along with a B series H55F...

Have you got 3D CAD?
I have a solidworks model.

[LC_Hamma]

I am not a fan of the NV4500 b/c its a stiff shifting tranny with a few gaps between gears that I didnt care for. So, this leads me back down the h55f path.

Is this FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that you've had w/ the NV4500? I ask cuz that's the 1st I've ever heard of this "stiff shifting" & "gaps" between I've driven 2 different rigs w/ NV4500's for many years & couldn't imagine a smoother shifting tranny. I guess you're not concerned about having a low geared tranny for off road? Is that Toy tranny geared in the 6:1 range, like the NV4500?

[RHINO]

yeah hamma they're geared pretty low,,, 5.3 or somethin.

i have an H55 thats all disassembled right now, i will be replacing the R150 with it at some point but the R150 is doing great behind the diesel,,, smooth as silk and an awsome tight shift pattern. when i do it i will most likely have a custom bellhousing made to put the H55 on the isuzu using the isuzu flywheel and toyota everything else, pretty simple just money for the custom bellhousing.

[rtarh2o]

Just wondering if anyone has a completed Isuzu FJ80 yet? This was my first choice a year ago when I started thinking about my conversion. I would still like to hear how it does in the 80.
Rusty

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by cruiserbrett

Interestingly, rick D says there is an isuzu clutch disc that fits the fine spline input of the HZ and B series input and is 300mm OD?

My clutch discs are 278mm OD.

[cruiserbrett]

Originally Posted by LC_Hamma

Is this FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that you've had w/ the NV4500? I ask cuz that's the 1st I've ever heard of this "stiff shifting" & "gaps" between I've driven 2 different rigs w/ NV4500's for many years & couldn't imagine a smoother shifting tranny. I guess you're not concerned about having a low geared tranny for off road? Is that Toy tranny geared in the 6:1 range, like the NV4500?

Yes, it was my experience in my own truck and another FJ40 of a friend. both were the rare early GM 6.34:1 verisons, and not the MUCH more common later GM and dodge 5.61:1 later versions...

I had mine rebuilt with new bearings and synchros, etc, ran the oil everyone recommended, etc, and still it shifted poorly, as did the one in my friends Fj40...

The low geared GM versions with the 6.34:1 first have a longer gap between second and third and fourth. I just didnt care for this. Consequently I am not interested in running an NV4500 until I have exhausted the options of the toyota 5 speed. Glad you liked the NV4500, but we are entiltled to our opinions...

whether its the 5:1 first of the toyota or the 5.6:1 of the 10 times more common later NV4500, its a wash when theres other ways to get low gearing, IE 4.7:1 toybox.

[hayes167]

Originally Posted by rtarh2o

Just wondering if anyone has a completed Isuzu FJ80 yet? This was my first choice a year ago when I started thinking about my conversion. I would still like to hear how it does in the 80.
Rusty

I am in the middle of my swap. I have some fears about the power of the 4bd and the weight of the 80. I will probably end up intercooling it and putting on a turbo with more boost. I about 3-4 months from the maiden voyage. I'll let you know.
I got the OME lift installed, fuel tank dropped and fuel pump removed, engine mounts cut off, and cut out the unleaded spring door in the the fuel filler neck. I am getting all this done as I wait for Isuzudieselswapper to get more adapters, it has been well over a month now.

[gifu]

just to add some fuel here... heh heh... the h55f is 4.84:1; not 5.1.

I have had three h55f trucks... V8J60, Cummins6A3.4t-60, BJ74. I've also had three NV4500 cruisers... V8FJ46, V8FJ60, 4BT80... and a '98 Dodge Cummins...

I have to say that, I felt, the NV4500 is a lil bit nicer. Second gear is lower, so you don't have to use first; and the spread between the gears seems more even. Also, the 5th gear is a nicer drop in noise and RPM. My favorite was actually the rare 6.34:1 i had in my V8FJ60... that sucker would crawl pretty darn well. Not as nice as the FJ46 with NV->Orion, but not bad.

But, they are both sweet transmissions. And you can actually pick up an H55f... whereas the NV4500 , two of us couldn't carry it (well, it was bolted to the Orion)

[gifu]

Originally Posted by hayes167

... fuel tank dropped and fuel pump removed,

hmm, i was able to remove pump without dropping tank; access port under carpet.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by hayes167

I am in the middle of my swap. I have some fears about the power of the 4bd and the weight of the 80.

It all depends on what you're expecting. It'll be far quicker than the HZ powered 80's and similar to the HD-T powered ones with stock fuelling.
I've never run the later style turbo with no wastegate but I do have one in my parts bin so I don't know when they build boost or how much.
But any turbo with a T3 flange will fit the later factory manifold, I have adapter designs to bolt a T25 or T28 straight on as well.

[rtarh2o]

Hayes167, that sounds great, can't wait to hear about it. I really love my 6.2 but I have a 97 that I am getting anxious to do something with!
Keep us posted.
Rusty

[hayes167]

Originally Posted by gifu

hmm, i was able to remove pump without dropping tank; access port under carpet.

Yea I saw that after I dropped it. I looked in the fsm at fuel tank and it did not provide that much info.

Dougal - Thanks for the encouragement. I'll be happy with HD-T stock power.

Andrew - I'd love to see pic of how you fabed your motor mounts.

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by zaksl17

Hello, i've been driving around my 4bd1t powered fj40 for about a month now and finally got to putting in my front drive shaft. i have about 1 1/2" to 2 " between the front drive flange at the pumpkin and the oil pan. well its not enough because it hit, now i have a big dent in the pan.

I saw that 88tlc did some work to his pan. I was wondering how much room is in the right front corner of the sump. is the oil pump or pick up near there? 88tlc how much did you find a new (or used ) oil pan for? My 40 is now my daily driver so i was thinking about getting a used pan to modify.

any advice would help thanks?

there is plenty of room on the injection pump side and near the front to modify the pan. i modified the front corner of the pan (IP side), and moved the drain to the turbo side, and then also ripped the pan down the length, and formed the IP side with a bit of an angle to help with front axle clearance.

the oil volume in the pan is now reduced a bit, so I would not get too crazy with reshaping. but some room was needed to add some travel. I have now modified my bumpstops to bump before hitting the pan.

[88tlc]

the first road trip test run on the FJ 62, and the isuzu 4BD1T.

Its about 200 miles one way, with an assortment of long valleys, and passes with 10% grades. a little bit of everything.

The landcruiser made it there and back, with no issues. got 22- 23 mpg. So I would call it a success, but I am still not happy with the performance.

In order to cruise 65 - 75 mph i am at 1000 deg (post turbo), 4psi, and approx 1700-1800 rpm.

on the 10% grades, I had to go into 2nd gear. this just seems undiesel like. It lacks that torque and power to reliably handle the hills. my passat 1.9tdi would haul ass up that in 5th, maybe 4th. dodge cummins 5.9 would bark up it in OD. the 3FE old engine would likely have gotten up the hill at a higher speed. i had an old VW van that would make it up that hill and have to be in 2nd.

It feels like the engine is under turboed, and it is over geared. 700r4, with overdrive, and overdrive lockup, lugs the engine at a low RPM. the low rpms then make low boost. if I can get it up to a higher speed, it starts to respond to throttle with power, but at 75-80. at that point however the egts are too high.

Timing? adjust IP pump timing? I may need to play with this a little.

regear it? swap out the 4.11s with lower gearing?

turbo - I need more turbo. can the 4bd2t wastegated turbos fit on the 4bd1t?

[88tlc]

Originally Posted by rtarh2o

He is turning about 2000 rpm at 65. I have the same 700r4, 4.11's and 33" tires. I have a tiny tach installed and 1800 rpm is about 60 mph, seems like I am turning about 2030 at about 67 mph with my 6.2 diesel.
Hope you get the power thing worked out, I really think that could be a great engine, seems like a 3.9 with turbo should be more than enough. I am sure my 6.2 would be in 3rd gear going up a grade at 6,000 ft as well.
Good luck
Rusty

Some questions I have about knowing the rpms at speed.

1. RPM - accurately calibrating the true RPM's? not sure how I can accurately adjust this? so i can not confidently say WHAT rpms i am running.

2. electronic lockup - do you have yours connected? when I did not have mine connected, it was running higher rpms, perhaps 2000, but with the lockup, it is reduced by 250 rpm. I do not think it is running at 2000 rpm, when I am in overdrive, and lockup.

3. speed - are you compensating for the tires? I have used a GPS to confirm my quick adjustment for speed, a +10% factor. that jives with the tire size difference too.

[Dougal]

Originally Posted by 88tlc

the first road trip test run on the FJ 62, and the isuzu 4BD1T.

Its about 200 miles one way, with an assortment of long valleys, and passes with 10% grades. a little bit of everything.

The landcruiser made it there and back, with no issues. got 22- 23 mpg. So I would call it a success, but I am still not happy with the performance.

In order to cruise 65 - 75 mph i am at 1000 deg (post turbo), 4psi, and approx 1700-1800 rpm.

on the 10% grades, I had to go into 2nd gear. this just seems undiesel like. It lacks that torque and power to reliably handle the hills. my passat 1.9tdi would haul ass up that in 5th, maybe 4th. dodge cummins 5.9 would bark up it in OD. the 3FE old engine would likely have gotten up the hill at a higher speed. i had an old VW van that would make it up that hill and have to be in 2nd.

It feels like the engine is under turboed, and it is over geared. 700r4, with overdrive, and overdrive lockup, lugs the engine at a low RPM. the low rpms then make low boost. if I can get it up to a higher speed, it starts to respond to throttle with power, but at 75-80. at that point however the egts are too high.

Timing? adjust IP pump timing? I may need to play with this a little.

regear it? swap out the 4.11s with lower gearing?

turbo - I need more turbo. can the 4bd2t wastegated turbos fit on the 4bd1t?

Have you got a boost gauge, if so what's it reading?
How does it sound at idle, is it smoother or noisier (the dak-dak-dak noise) than the ones on youtube? The noise at idle gives a good idea of where your injection timing is.

If you've got the later style manifold (flange on an angle) then it's a standard T3 mount which fits a whole range of turbos.

Cruising at 100km/h these are my results in a 2.3ton fulltime 4wd rangerover.
2000rpm
430-450C EGT's preturbo
8-9psi boost.
12-13psi exhaust manifold pressure